Metrolink Oyster Card?

[The Snap]

Hi all,

In anticipation of the trebling in size of the Metrolink network in Manchester, do you think it would be a smart move by TfGM to introduce a London-style Oyster Card system?

Stagecoach run probably about half the bus services in Manchester (with First running the rest, and other smaller companies having a few routes between them), as well as running the Metrolink. Would it not be a wise move to create such a scheme replicating the system in London?

I personally think it would be a fantastic idea, especially considering the network's size once all the extensions are complete by 2016 (and with the possibility of more to the Trafford Centre and Stockport).

Discuss .

 

[WestCoast]

TfGM is supposedly already developing a ITSO compliant smartcard known as Readycard - LINK and TfGM Magazine (page 11)

I don't think it can be denied that smart card ticketing is the way forward. HOWEVER, it was a lot easier in London because TfL has a control over services in many cases. While introduction on buses, tube, trams and DLR was immediate - the Pay As You Go Oyster was not accepted on some National Rail services (e.g. South West Trains) for quite a few years after introduction.

If that was difficult in London, think of the problems TfGM will encounter getting all parties to agree on conditions. GM rail services (Northern, TPE, even Virgin, XC and ATW for Stockport) and commercial GM bus services (Stagecoach, Finglands, Arriva, First, Transdev, JPT, e.t.c), it will be a difficult task to get all parties to agree on fares and conditions - especially without major direct subsidy.

 

[tbtc]

TfGM is supposedly already developing a ITSO compliant smartcard known as Readycard - LINK and TfGM Magazine (page 11)

I wish they weren't developing their own "smartcard" and just bought the London version. We had a trial of "Yorcard" on the local bus route here (52 in Sheffield, plus the "local" trains to Doncaster) and it didn't work well, partly because the technology was still "developing" - much better to buy a tried and tested thing....

...However, local PTE people in Sheffield thought they knew best and wanted *their* version

 

[WestCoast]

I wish they weren't developing their own "smartcard" and just bought the London version. We had a trial of "Yorcard" on the local bus route here (52 in Sheffield, plus the "local" trains to Doncaster) and it didn't work well, partly because the technology was still "developing" - much better to buy a tried and tested thing....

Well, it's probably best not to buy London's technology. This is because many buses outside London already have ITSO compatible readers for OAP bus passes. ITSO is already proven, London is the one major exception using the Oyster technology - London Freedom Passes (OAP free pass) aren't compatible with ITSO readers elsewhere.

 

[Prodigy]

Stagecoach buses already have the technology for the cards, and in fact my Concession Plus card has to be now scanned in when using a Stagecoach bus. I could see Stagecoach easily bringing this to the metrolink with ease as they operate the metrolink but I'm not sure if it would be that easy to bring it to all Bus and Train companies.

 

[transportphoto]

Well, it's probably best not to buy London's technology. This is because many buses outside London already have ITSO compatible readers for OAP bus passes. ITSO is already proven, London is the one major exception using the Oyster technology - London Freedom Passes (OAP free pass) aren't compatible with ITSO readers elsewhere.

I believe they are, AFAIAA they contain both technologies.

To quote

Q. How do I use my Freedom Pass on the bus outside London - do I place it on the card reader?

A. Yes, if you have a new style pass. Card readers outside London use a different technology, but the new style passes, which include the red ribbon logo and hologram should be readable. If not, you need to show your Freedom Pass and photocard to the bus driver.

HTH TP

 

[WestCoast]

Oh, right. I don't have pass, but I assumed that was the case.

In that case, I am sure that ITSO cards are not compatible with Oyster technology? So someone with a Manchester City Council issued free bus pass just has to show the London bus driver as it can't be used to touch in.

 

[transportphoto]

Oh, right. I don't have pass, but I assumed that was the case.

No problem

In that case, I am sure that ITSO cards are not compatible with Oyster technology? So someone with a Manchester City Council issued free bus pass just has to show the London bus driver as it can't be used to touch in.

That is correct

 

[Mojo]

Itso is a load of rubbish anyway, it's so darn slow. I can't remember where I was recently but I was surprised that it took about 5-10 seconds to process someone using an Itso card to make a single journey!

 

[WestCoast]

Itso is a load of rubbish anyway, it's so darn slow. I can't remember where I was recently but I was surprised that it took about 5-10 seconds to process someone using an Itso card to make a single journey!

That's because outside London, life is slower. Manchester buses can be such a faff while people fiddle with change, pay £11 in coppers for their megarider, blah blah blah.

No, if it's an OAP pass, on my local bus company, the driver tends to have to tap the destination of the passenger in on the machine and then let that register with the card on the pad, while a "zero-fare ticket" is printed! Hardly an Oyster touch-in is it?

 

[WatcherZero]

Oh, right. I don't have pass, but I assumed that was the case.

In that case, I am sure that ITSO cards are not compatible with Oyster technology? So someone with a Manchester City Council issued free bus pass just has to show the London bus driver as it can't be used to touch in.

Thery phasing in ITSO compatability to London and will eventually phase out Oyster technology, there is an issue with speed however, it takes 0.5s to read an Oyster card but 1s to read a ITSO card because the ITSO is more secure where as Oyster was designed for speed. Tfl are saying they wont replace Oyster entirely until that speed gap can be closed.

 

[Deerfold]

Thery phasing in ITSO compatability to London and will eventually phase out Oyster technology, there is an issue with speed however, it takes 0.5s to read an Oyster card but 1s to read a ITSO card because the ITSO is more secure where as Oyster was designed for speed. Tfl are saying they wont replace Oyster entirely until that speed gap can be closed.

Well Oyster was designed before ITSO was agreed - that's the main reason Oyster wasn't ITSO-compatible!

 

[tbtc]

That's because outside London, life is slower. Manchester buses can be such a faff while people fiddle with change, pay £11 in coppers for their megarider, blah blah blah.

No, if it's an OAP pass, on my local bus company, the driver tends to have to tap the destination of the passenger in on the machine and then let that register with the card on the pad, while a "zero-fare ticket" is printed! Hardly an Oyster touch-in is it?

I guess the problem is that most places have a variety of single bus fares, whilst London only has one single fare (?), so there's no need to worry about your "destination" when boarding a London bus and scanning your Oyster (you are free to sit/stand on it all the way to the terminus).

However, in Manchester/ rest of the world, the equivalent adult fare (for each "free" OAP journey) will vary considerably in price.

 

[WestCoast]

I guess the problem is that most places have a variety of single bus fares, whilst London only has one single fare (?), so there's no need to worry about your "destination" when boarding a London bus and scanning your Oyster (you are free to sit/stand on it all the way to the terminus).

However, in Manchester/ rest of the world, the equivalent adult fare (for each "free" OAP journey) will vary considerably in price.

Yes, it's a low flat fare in London (just £1.30 with Oyster), many people use the buses to save money. Fares are much more complicated (and generally more expensive) outside London, there are a few exceptions such as the council run bus firm in Edinburgh. Buses take longer at stops, which make busy routes less attractive. Plus, London bus users start complaining at a bus every 12 minutes! My local route, which is busy at times and isn't rural, is every 30/60 minutes. The single fares go up to £3.90 for a half an hour ride.

The procedure varies in different places for ITSO free passes. My local bus route is ran by Stagecoach in Lancashire and they have been equipped with ITSO compatible ticket machines for years!

However, some places are still not using them, and I've heard TfGM shouting from the roof tops about scanning free bus passes in Greater Manchester. Over in Lancashire and Cheshire, they've been doing that for years (something like 2004!). :roll:

 

[Chapeltom]

I think with the eventual expansion of the Metrolink this will become a good idea.

I'd personally like something like Plusbus but with Metrolink on top of your train journey. Currently I pay £5.75 to get to Manchester then pay £3.60 to get to somewhere like Bury, that's nearly £10. Unlimited metrolink travel on top of the train, £4.50 or just to one destination say Bury instead of £3.60, £2.50.

An Oyster style system or something needs to come in, mainly to combat the stupid price of the Metrolink.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't think the Metrolink fares are too bad - non-PTE are local train fares are dearer. They are quite reasonable on the Eccles line - especially the £2.90 off-peak daysaver from certain stops!

The problem in large regional cities with a tram/metro network and a large urban rail network, like Manchester and Birmingham, is that the integration between buses, trains and trams is not good, hence if you have to use more than one mode it's expensive. For example, in Manchester, you can't get a singel 'transfare' ticket for the bus/tram like you can in Newcastle.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't think the Metrolink fares are too bad - non-PTE are local train fares are dearer. They are quite reasonable on the Eccles line - especially the £2.90 off-peak daysaver from certain stops!

The problem in large regional cities with a tram/metro network and a large urban rail network, like Manchester and Birmingham, is that the integration between buses, trains and trams is not good, hence if you have to use more than one mode it's expensive. For example, in Manchester, you can't get a singel 'transfare' ticket for the bus/tram like you can in Newcastle.

You can at least get a day ticket

http://www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/travelcards/display.php?card=82

but annoyingly only off peak - I realise a peak one would cost more but it's annoying not having one.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I don't think it can be denied that smart card ticketing is the way forward. HOWEVER, it was a lot easier in London because TfL has a control over services in many cases.

And the lesson from this story is keep your public transport state controllled.

the Pay As You Go Oyster was not accepted on some National Rail services (e.g. South West Trains) for quite a few years after introduction.

And the lesson from this story is keep your public transport state controllled.

 

[WatcherZero]

Many foreign countries have wholly state run transport networks, doesnt mean they have integrated ticketing though.

 

[WestCoast]

Many foreign countries have wholly state run transport networks, doesnt mean they have integrated ticketing though.

Many countries with state-run or partially state-run networks have full integration within a PTE area. I can think of one country that is almost wholly integrated.

 

[radamfi]

Proper integration isn't possible until the end of bus deregulation, which West Yorkshire are furthest towards in their push for Quality Contracts. However, the lack of fare integration between Metrolink and National Rail in GM is disappointing, and within the authority's power. I can only assume that it was decided Metrolink needed to be more expensive due to the overcrowding on the two main lines and special cheap fares to fill National Rail seats off peak.

 

[WatcherZero]

There is fare integration with rail, its bus-tram and bus-rail point to point journeys their no integration really. Theres also going to be a clause in Northern Rail and Virgins next franchise agreements that they have to support local integrated ticketing schemes.

 

[WestCoast]

Theres also going to be a clause in Northern Rail and Virgins next franchise agreements that they have to support local integrated ticketing schemes.

It will only work if TPE are onboard (), since they are the second largest rail operator in the area.

 

[WatcherZero]

They havent drafted/consulted on TPE franchise yet so I couldnt comment on that one

 

[WestCoast]

They havent drafted/consulted on TPE franchise yet so I couldnt comment on that one

I don't think there would be any problem getting TPE and Northern to sign up - but TPE are essential since they operate far more local services in GM than Virgin do. I can imagine XC, ATW and EMT being harder to convice...!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So someone with a Manchester City Council issued free bus pass ......

Am I missing something here? I was not aware that Manchester City Council issued free bus passes....is this something specific to people residing solely within the city boundaries?.

The over-60 National Concessionary Scheme passes that my wife and I hold were issued by TfGM, the successors of GMPTE.

 

[WatcherZero]

No your right, their issued by County council/PTE.

 

[WestCoast]

No your right, their issued by County council/PTE.

Oh yes, I forget they are issued by the PTE / county council (even in unitary authorities). However, One anomaly though is that Cumbria's passes are effectively issued by Lancashire CC! Presumably, to save on costs.

The scheme in Lancashire is called NowCard and includes Cumbria and the unitary authorities of Blackburn with Darwen and Blackpool.

 

[gnolife]

You can at least get a day ticket

http://www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/travelcards/display.php?card=82

but annoyingly only off peak - I realise a peak one would cost more but it's annoying not having one.

if youre using the bus in the peak, and the train/met in the off-peak, you can get a Wayfarer, although it is £10, which is quite expensive if youre sticking to the GM area, if you plan on pushing the boundary to Buxton or Northwich or wherever though, the wayfarer is excellent value for money

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think there would be any problem getting TPE and Northern to sign up - but TPE are essential since they operate far more local services in GM than Virgin do. I can imagine XC, ATW and EMT being harder to convice...!

The franchaise for First TPE and for Northern do not have long to run. Will this mean that TfGM will have to start off the process again with the new franchaisee, who ever is the successful bidder?