Merseyside: New stations planned

[Merseysider]

Connecting at Birkenhead North would certainly improve things for incoming passengers, but for outgoing ones they still have to make sure they're back at Birkenhead North in time for a once hourly service. Even missing a half hourly service is a pain. I doubt that Birkenhead North is a particularly nice station to wait around at either.

Without a proper through service to the city, this line will always struggle for passengers, let alone with an hour's worth of DMU exposure (class 150?)

Absolutely, Birkenhead North has no waiting room or shelter from the cold, merely seats under a brick canopy, and the toilet is often locked out of use.

The bus is the most practical option for those looking to travel from Liverpool/Birkenhead to Upton or Heswall, due to the far greater frequency making up for the slightly longer journey time, and lower price.

5-8 minute connections at Birkenhead North for a two-hourly service down the Borderlands Line would certainly increase footfall but a one-hourly from Bidston is just out of the way for many, especially those from Wallasey, where a direct bus to Upton already exists.

 

[Geeves]

Thought we had seen the last of you on Skyscrapercity.

Your tunnels in Liverpool will never reopen, you will never the get the ship cannal filled in and replaced with a monorail!!!

Give up.

 

[Camden]

Absolutely, Birkenhead North has no waiting room or shelter from the cold, merely seats under a brick canopy, and the toilet is often locked out of use.

The bus is the most practical option for those looking to travel from Liverpool/Birkenhead to Upton or Heswall, due to the far greater frequency making up for the slightly longer journey time, and lower price.

5-8 minute connections at Birkenhead North for a two-hourly service down the Borderlands Line would certainly increase footfall but a one-hourly from Bidston is just out of the way for many, especially those from Wallasey, where a direct bus to Upton already exists.

On that note, while this is the rail uk forums, and I would certainly advocate through journeys on electric trains radiating from UK cities, one thing that does surprise me in instances like this is that no one has come forward to create an express high quality bus service like the Oxford Tube.

Wrexham to both Liverpool and Manchester express even just half hourly would surely generate more passengers than the present rail journeys (albeit it would probably decimate any business case for improving them in the future!)

 

[pablo]

When the Borderlands finished terminating at New Brighton, they ran to Birkenhead Northg P2 instead and sat there idling for quite a while so that electric services had to use an awkward deviation via platform 3.

Part of the 1970s scheme was a bay platform between the island platforms at Birkenhead Park facing Liverpool, that never got used for its intended purpose. It was removed years later and the Liverpool bound line smoothed out with one island removed. If a bay was inserted there but facing Bidston, it would make a far more amenable termination for the Borderlands service, pro temp elec or whatever. But hourly is never going to crack it.

 

[UrbanWorld]

On that note, while this is the rail uk forums, and I would certainly advocate through journeys on electric trains radiating from UK cities, one thing that does surprise me in instances like this is that no one has come forward to create an express high quality bus service like the Oxford Tube.

Wrexham to both Liverpool and Manchester express even just half hourly would surely generate more passengers than the present rail journeys (albeit it would probably decimate any business case for improving them in the future!)

Electrifying the Borderlands line to run into Liverpool's underground loop and building Beechwood and Woodchurch stations 4 per hour would most probably be feasible as the line would be well used at the Birkenhead and Liverpool end and at the other end from Deeside to Wrexham. It may be worthwhile having Wrexham to Deedside services at 4 per hour and the same at the Liverpool end to a new Beechwood station with the odd half hour express doing the whole run.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Reading through all the various comments and suggestions previously is fascinating because it proves how difficult finding an economical solution for HS2/3 for Liverpool is going to be whilst ensuring that any schemes proposed and started in the Merseytravel 30year plan are complementary to what ever decision is eventually taken.

Looking at both sets of proposals together my first inclination would be to protect the existing Chat Moss line largely because even with a HS3 line between Liverpool and Manchester, there were still be a requirement for a direct conventional service serving the stations in between the two cities. Chat Moss offers this connectivity and in the years ahead there could be a requirement to restore a third or even a fourth track through Olive Mount cutting. Yes this would require expensive work to the bridges at Broad Green on the M62 and Queens Drive where the trackbed is now obstructed but I believe this would be possible. Broad Green Station might also have to be shifted slightly east perhaps extending over Thomas Lane as well as restoring the rail overbridge. At Wavertree Technical Park the existing platforms could become island platforms with two new lines laid either side of the existing station platforms before slewing the line slightly to the north enable separate four tracking to Edge Hill. This would probably require the removal of engineering sidings to the south side of Edge Hill Station which would allow the two most northerly lines to run under a drive under the two other Chat Moss and two London Lines to emerge on the south side of Edge Hill Station from where they could enter either the Wapping Tunnel or Crown Street tunnel the later of which would perhaps be better suited to service the University district and new Royal Liverpool Hospital with an underground station before connecting to the Northern Line south of Central Station.

I would rule out using the Wigan to Kirkby route into a rebuilt Exchange Station because this potentially offers an alternative route from Port of Liverpool to the WCML plus the routing would take any HS3 route too far to the north assuming you wanted to connect Liverpool to Manchester Airport then on to Manchester city centre. Such a routing would favour an HS3 line entering Liverpool from the south east which could then potentially be shared with a HS2 connection.

I still believe the Exchange Station site offers a better option than a Lime Street site for an HS2/3 station in Liverpool for several reasons. It is as close the main shopping area as Lime Street, but it also in the heart of the business district and much nearer the Cruise Terminal both potential important supporters of the new routes. The site itself is not directly connected to the rail network so there is less chance of disruption and it can easily be connected to the Merseyrail network through Moorfields Station. With the City line connected through the Edge Hill spur it would mean passengers from all around the Merseyside area could easily reach and enlarged Moorfields Station to access HS2/3 trains. A tunnel between Lime Street Station and Central station with a walking walkway would allow travellers to move in both directions between the two stations in addition to retaining the loop station at Lime Street for travellers to and from the Wirral to Lime Street Station. The new Exchange Station could be the built above ground which would be less expensive than any underground solution as well as being a better experience for travellers.

The only major problem with Exchange site is how the station could be reached by a HS2/3 line from the south east. The Outer Loop line route from Gateacre to Walton is largely still intact but it would be very close in many parts to residential developments which could cause endless delays in gaining approval and it's rather circuitous. Furthermore, a combined HS2/3 route would I believe tend to favour a route closer to the south side of the M62 from the Warrington area. A six to six and half mile deep tunnel running in an arc from just south of Junction 5 on the M62 to Great Howard Street passing under the Merseyrail Northern Lines before climbing back to reach a New Exchange Station would reduce opposition from residential developments and avoid the route via Walton. Operationally this would also mean that the conventional rail network would not interfere with HS2/3 trains and additional capacity would be provided both at Lime Street to increase Liverpool's connectivity to the rest of the country, as well as for freight to reach the Port of Liverpool.

 

[HSTEd]

Even at 240km/h the train would eat up something like 4 kilometres every minute.

A 20km detour around to the north of Liverpool to use the fairly easy approach into Exchange from the North is not really going to be a dealbreaker.
Especially considering the route is far more likely to provide economic access to 400m platforms than attempting to cram them into Lime Street.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Absolutely, Birkenhead North has no waiting room or shelter from the cold, merely seats under a brick canopy, and the toilet is often locked out of use.

Indeed you are correct in what you say. That station, to my way of thinking, would be worthy of a belated entry in "Paradise Lost"...:roll:

 

[HowardGWR]

@Wavertreelad
Great Howard St is a long one. Whereabouts would the tunnel emerge (so that I can find that on Google Maps). I must say it seems to me, as an outsider, that a terminus for HS2 (HS3?) is better at Exchange, however it reaches that location.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Even at 240km/h the train would eat up something like 4 kilometres every minute.

A 20km detour around to the north of Liverpool to use the fairly easy approach into Exchange from the North is not really going to be a dealbreaker.
Especially considering the route is far more likely to provide economic access to 400m platforms than attempting to cram them into Lime Street.

Especially when you consider the disruption that it would create to Lime Street Station and surrounding area and that any access would also have to be tunnelled either from the Wapping Tunnel or all the way from Edge Hill which you still have to reach with more disruption.

@Wavertreelad
Great Howard St is a long one. Whereabouts would the tunnel emerge (so that I can find that on Google Maps). I must say it seems to me, as an outsider, that a terminus for HS2 (HS3?) is better at Exchange, however it reaches that location.

I would suggest the Whitley to Sherwood Street area as this would allow the tunnel to be constructed to the north of the Wallasey Tunnel and turning through ninety degrees rising to ground level between the Merseyrail lines and Great Howard Street from where it would be able to rise to allow the 400mtr straight platforms that would probably have to extend over Leeds Street.

 

[L+Y]

I may have taken one of last trains on the North Mersey Branch in the early 80s it was still electrified and a blockage on the line between Kirkdale and Aintree meant my train was diverted. Judging by the speed we went it wasn't in good nick even then.

I'd be intrigued to hear more about this. As far as I'm aware, the North Mersey Branch was de-electrified sometime around 1960, and I can't see any apparent third rail on any photo of the line I have from the 1970s. I know that there were a couple of weekends in the 1970s and 1980s where the power was off due to engineering works and DMUs replaced EMUs on Merseyrail: could this possibly have happened then?

 

[8A Rail]

I'd be intrigued to hear more about this. As far as I'm aware, the North Mersey Branch was de-electrified sometime around 1960, and I can't see any apparent third rail on any photo of the line I have from the 1970s. I know that there were a couple of weekends in the 1970s and 1980s where the power was off due to engineering works and DMUs replaced EMUs on Merseyrail: could this possibly have happened then?

I thought that too but just for a minute I was going dafted or got confused in my mature age hence no previous post. Certainly no third rail in exsistence around Aintree Container Base in the 1980's (closed 1986).

I suppose the real question would be when did the third rail get lifted off the North Mersey Branch?

 

[HowardGWR]

I would suggest the Whitely to Sherwood Street area as this would allow the tunnel to be constructed to the north of the Wallasey Tunnel and turning through ninety degrees rising to ground level between the Merseyrail lines and Great Howard Street from where it would be able to rise to allow the 400mtr straight platforms that would probably have to extend over Leeds Street.

Thanks very much, yes I see it's mostly open space, car parks and 'grotsville' at the moment. BTW, I had trouble finding Whitley St (see your spelling ).

I wonder how much your 6.5 mile tunnel will cost?

 

[flypie]

I'd be intrigued to hear more about this. As far as I'm aware, the North Mersey Branch was de-electrified sometime around 1960, and I can't see any apparent third rail on any photo of the line I have from the 1970s. I know that there were a couple of weekends in the 1970s and 1980s where the power was off due to engineering works and DMUs replaced EMUs on Merseyrail: could this possibly have happened then?

You may be right. It was a long time ago and I didn't really pay attention. Though it wasn't one of the usual Merseyrail trains, so it looks like it was a DMU.

What I can't remember is how I got into town that day.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Thanks very much, yes I see it's mostly open space, car parks and 'grotsville' at the moment. BTW, I had trouble finding Whitley St (see your spelling ).

I wonder how much your 6.5 mile tunnel will cost?

Sorry I have now corrected the spelling!

As for the cost of the tunnel, I really don't know, but as a pure guess say about one hundred and fifty million pounds but I would welcome other more knowledgeable suggestions.

 

[flypie]

Reading through all the various comments and suggestions previously is fascinating because it proves how difficult finding an economical solution for HS2/3 for Liverpool is going to be whilst ensuring that any schemes proposed and started in the Merseytravel 30year plan are complementary to what ever decision is eventually taken.

Looking at both sets of proposals together my first inclination would be to protect the existing Chat Moss line largely because even with a HS3 line between Liverpool and Manchester, there were still be a requirement for a direct conventional service serving the stations in between the two cities. Chat Moss offers this connectivity and in the years ahead there could be a requirement to restore a third or even a fourth track through Olive Mount cutting. Yes this would require expensive work to the bridges at Broad Green on the M62 and Queens Drive where the trackbed is now obstructed but I believe this would be possible. Broad Green Station might also have to be shifted slightly east perhaps extending over Thomas Lane as well as restoring the rail overbridge. At Wavertree Technical Park the existing platforms could become island platforms with two new lines laid either side of the existing station platforms before slewing the line slightly to the north enable separate four tracking to Edge Hill. This would probably require the removal of engineering sidings to the south side of Edge Hill Station which would allow the two most northerly lines to run under a drive under the two other Chat Moss and two London Lines to emerge on the south side of Edge Hill Station from where they could enter either the Wapping Tunnel or Crown Street tunnel the later of which would perhaps be better suited to service the University district and new Royal Liverpool Hospital with an underground station before connecting to the Northern Line south of Central Station.

I would rule out using the Wigan to Kirkby route into a rebuilt Exchange Station because this potentially offers an alternative route from Port of Liverpool to the WCML plus the routing would take any HS3 route too far to the north assuming you wanted to connect Liverpool to Manchester Airport then on to Manchester city centre. Such a routing would favour an HS3 line entering Liverpool from the south east which could then potentially be shared with a HS2 connection.

I still believe the Exchange Station site offers a better option than a Lime Street site for an HS2/3 station in Liverpool for several reasons. It is as close the main shopping area as Lime Street, but it also in the heart of the business district and much nearer the Cruise Terminal both potential important supporters of the new routes. The site itself is not directly connected to the rail network so there is less chance of disruption and it can easily be connected to the Merseyrail network through Moorfields Station. With the City line connected through the Edge Hill spur it would mean passengers from all around the Merseyside area could easily reach and enlarged Moorfields Station to access HS2/3 trains. A tunnel between Lime Street Station and Central station with a walking walkway would allow travellers to move in both directions between the two stations in addition to retaining the loop station at Lime Street for travellers to and from the Wirral to Lime Street Station. The new Exchange Station could be the built above ground which would be less expensive than any underground solution as well as being a better experience for travellers.

The only major problem with Exchange site is how the station could be reached by a HS2/3 line from the south east. The Outer Loop line route from Gateacre to Walton is largely still intact but it would be very close in many parts to residential developments which could cause endless delays in gaining approval and it's rather circuitous. Furthermore, a combined HS2/3 route would I believe tend to favour a route closer to the south side of the M62 from the Warrington area. A six to six and half mile deep tunnel running in an arc from just south of Junction 5 on the M62 to Great Howard Street passing under the Merseyrail Northern Lines before climbing back to reach a New Exchange Station would reduce opposition from residential developments and avoid the route via Walton. Operationally this would also mean that the conventional rail network would not interfere with HS2/3 trains and additional capacity would be provided both at Lime Street to increase Liverpool's connectivity to the rest of the country, as well as for freight to reach the Port of Liverpool.

Building above ground does not make sense, because while it improves the user experience at time, it also means you are more subject to the elements.
There is a long history of underground stations of all sorts, they are a transitory experience, unlike officers or flat, which have to be above ground. Reusing the Exchange station would take a large chunk of surface for which better uses could be found.
Built under Lime Street at the correct angle, access directly from Central could be provided.
Use of the Waterloo tunnel to provide access for HS2/3 at one end and access for a Tram Station in the other direction serving the Pier Head and Liverpool Waters.

 

[edwin_m]

Building above ground does not make sense, because while it improves the user experience at time, it also means you are more subject to the elements.
There is a long history of underground stations of all sorts, they are a transitory experience, unlike officers or flat, which have to be above ground. Reusing the Exchange station would take a large chunk of surface for which better uses could be found.
Built under Lime Street at the correct angle, access directly from Central could be provided.
Use of the Waterloo tunnel to provide access for HS2/3 at one end and access for a Tram Station in the other direction serving the Pier Head and Liverpool Waters.

All the HS2 station plans appear to show trainsheds of one sort or the other so the elements won't be much of a problem. Given that the underground through station at Euston appears to be uneconomic even compared with a monster rebuild of the surface station, I can't see any underground HS station being seriously considered for Liverpool (it would need at least 8 platforms to cater for HS2 and HS3).

So unless they want the HS station pushed out to Edge Hill or beyond, or no HS station at all, the powers that be in Liverpool need to identify and safeguard a suitable site.

Forgive a totally off-the-wall solution from someone with little local knowledge, but is the estuary just south of the Pier Head shallow enough to reclaim some of it? If I'm reading my OS map correctly there's an area that is exposed at low tide. A route either just in or just out of the Mersey might then be possible, crossing over near Runcorn and meeting HS2 somewhere north of Crewe.

 

[WatcherZero]

Official thinking is that its not needed/cost effective and opposed by the council but if it was done would be a new set of platforms immediately south of Lime Street with the cutting widened for a few km before becoming a tunnel crossing under the existing lines before reemerging on the surface with another station at Edgehill or Wavertree. Council dont like it as it would have a hefty land take particularly from the University Hospital.

 

[flypie]

All the HS2 station plans appear to show trainsheds of one sort or the other so the elements won't be much of a problem. Given that the underground through station at Euston appears to be uneconomic even compared with a monster rebuild of the surface station, I can't see any underground HS station being seriously considered for Liverpool (it would need at least 8 platforms to cater for HS2 and HS3).

So unless they want the HS station pushed out to Edge Hill or beyond, or no HS station at all, the powers that be in Liverpool need to identify and safeguard a suitable site.

Forgive a totally off-the-wall solution from someone with little local knowledge, but is the estuary just south of the Pier Head shallow enough to reclaim some of it? If I'm reading my OS map correctly there's an area that is exposed at low tide. A route either just in or just out of the Mersey might then be possible, crossing over near Runcorn and meeting HS2 somewhere north of Crewe.

The pier head is built on reclaimed land. At the pier head you have the ferry terminals, by Albert dock you have the entrance to the south docks and nothing blocking the view would be considered you have to get to say the site of Toxteth Dock before you have a chance of build in the river.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxteth_Dock
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Official thinking is that its not needed/cost effective and opposed by the council but if it was done would be a new set of platforms immediately south of Lime Street with the cutting widened for a few km before becoming a tunnel crossing under the existing lines before reemerging on the surface with another station at Edgehill or Wavertree. Council dont like it as it would have a hefty land take particularly from the University Hospital.

The cutting is actually a series of Tunnels and cuttings. It was originally just a tunnel but problems with smoke hampering view etc.
It would be possible to put a tunnel straight through, but the area you are talking about is far from empty.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I believe the City Council presently favour Lime Street on the basis that the HS2/3 platforms could be constructed within the red triangle area on the aerial view attached, ie Lime Street, Skelhorne Street and Copperas Hill. On the opposite side of Copperas Hill from left to right is The Adelphi Hotel and the former Royal Mail main sorting office that is being converted for use as part of the University, which in turn occupies much of the land to the south of the station for about one mile towards Edge Hill Station. To the north of the station and the cutting/tunnels are hotels and residential developments for the half a mile back towards Edge Hill Station, then the University occupies the site which will then be alongside the new Royal Liverpool Teaching hospital. The Victoria/Waterloo tunnel runs from the north side pf Edge Hill Station almost to the Liverpool waterfront opposite Trafalgar Dock along more of less under the Hospital. For any line to reach Lime Street from this tunnel would require a new tunnel turning through over ninety degrees and over the top of the existing station throat to achieve straight 400 meters plus platforms. The Wapping Tunnel runs from south side of Edge Hill Station to Brunswick Dock in the south of Liverpool. To reach Lime Street from the south of Edge Hill station would probably require a complete new bore to run parallel to the existing tunnels/cuttings under the University to reach a point on Lime Street more or less parallel to the existing station. Plans for either or both of these historic tunnels exist to link Edge Hill to the Northern Line south of Central Station so that during the construction of the 1970's tunnel linking the old surface Central Station line with the new Northern Line the start of the proposed new tunnel was built to reduce disruption at a later date.

In comparison the vast majority of the construction of the link to a rebuilt Exchange Station, with a train shed could be completed with little or no disruption to existing rail services in the Liverpool area, little or even no residential demolition, with the only disruption to the road network being some local disruption to cater for the construction of any shafts.

As far as building in the River Mersey this is a none starter as there is navigation channel running for the Pier Head to the entrance of Garston Docks which is adjacent to the Liverpool bank of the river. There is another navigational channel extending past Harrington Dock towards Otterspool that is used to turn tankers through 180 degrees when berthing at the Tranmere Oil Terminal on the Birkenhead side of the river.

 

[flypie]

"For any line to reach Lime Street from this tunnel would require a new tunnel turning through over ninety degrees and over the top of the existing station throat to achieve straight 400 meters plus platforms."

If it was under ground it would require the 90 degrees turn but if the platforms where under ground at 90degrees to the current one it would have little or no surface impact except for the building of passenger access. The minimum curve radius given in HS2 docs is 150 M which would mean that a tunnel from the waterloo could be at 90 to existing platforms by the start of the empire.
The original plans for the Edge Lane Spur envisage use of either the Wapping or Victoria tunnels not both, and there is no good practical reason why the HS2 in the Waterloo has to be exclusive HS2, to do so with the low rate of traffic imagined would be very wasteful of resources.

 

[Wavertreelad]

"For any line to reach Lime Street from this tunnel would require a new tunnel turning through over ninety degrees and over the top of the existing station throat to achieve straight 400 meters plus platforms."

If it was under ground it would require the 90 degrees turn but if the platforms where under ground at 90degrees to the current one it would have little or no surface impact except for the building of passenger access. The minimum curve radius given in HS2 docs is 150 M which would mean that a tunnel from the waterloo could be at 90 to existing platforms by the start of the empire.
The original plans for the Edge Lane Spur envisage use of either the Wapping or Victoria tunnels not both, and there is no good practical reason why the HS2 in the Waterloo has to be exclusive HS2, to do so with the low rate of traffic imagined would be very wasteful of resources.

The site of any HS2/3 platforms in my last post was based on the City Council scheme for HS2 which shows the platforms elevated above the others and extending out across Lime Street to the south of station, completely destroying the character of the area, in my opinion. Having said that I think the plans predate the HS3 concept, and therefore there is a reasonable chance that a rethink may be on the cards because of the need to provide additional platforms to cope with both HS2 and HS3 trains. Constructing a new HS2/3 under Lime Street station I suspect would be massively expensive and disruptive which is one of the main advantages of the Exchange site.

I'm note sure why you want to build a tram or light rail link to Liverpool Waters and the Cruise Terminal via the Waterloo Tunnel, when you could build a street line from Lime Street down St Johns Lane, Manchester Street, Dale Street, Water Street and along the Strand and Dock Road to both locations as you are assuming travellers on HS2/3 would travel directly to their cruise vessel. Judging by the large number of hotels being opened in Liverpool City Centre I suspect the intention and recommendation from the travel industry will be to try and encourage travellers to stay overnight and enjoy some of the local night life before continuing on their journey, why else provide the facilities in the first place?

Apart from the Exchange the other obvious place for an combined HS2/3 station would be Liverpool Waters which would probably have no problem with the accommodating a suitable station and which could be reached using the Waterloo Tunnel. The only downside as has been pointed out previously is the sites remoteness from the main shopping and business district, plus you will still have to find a route to the Edge Hill end of the tunnel.

To clarify my earlier post on linking the Edge Hill tunnels to the Northern Line, there were two or three different schemes all proposing different alignments from both the Waterloo and Wapping Tunnels to the single point south of Central Station where provision of the route was made when the 1970's construction was completed. I apologise if the original wording of my post inferred that both tunnels should be connected to the Northern Line. This is the best image of the proposals I have come across.

 

[flypie]

The reason I'd want to build a tram line using the remainder of the tunnel would be to connect all of Lime Street to the areas mentioned and beyond, an extra station could be fitted in at the Byrom street cutting.
Laying tracks in the road causes lots of disruption and the roads you mention are some of the busiest in the city centre. Reducing the load of all non pedestrians on the Surface would IMHO be good. Especially when the resources are sitting their doing nothing.

 

[UrbanWorld]

Reading through all the various comments and suggestions previously is fascinating because it proves how difficult finding an economical solution for HS2/3 for Liverpool is going to be whilst ensuring that any schemes proposed and started in the Merseytravel 30year plan are complementary to what ever decision is eventually taken.

It is not difficult or expensive finding an approach for HS2/HS3. It involves using existing approaches and spending HS2/HS3 money taking the local rail of these approaches by using exiting mothballed trackbed and tunnels and using tram-trains. Here are three:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2019821&postcount=514

Have a look at using the southern section of the Northern Line and moving the line to tram-trains tuning down Aigburth Rd and the Dock Rd. Tram-trains could run down Aigburth Road
and dive underground at Dingle into the existing abandoned underground Dingle station making the station a through station, down the Dingle tunnel and onto the docks and along the Dock Road to the city centre, probably running up the Wapping Tunnel to Central station.

You mentioning the use of the mothballed eastern section of the Outer Loop line to access the old Exchange station site also deprives Liverpool of a vital metro service to its eastern suburbs, which was was promised and works started over 40 years ago. One of the Walton twin tunnels will need finishing as it was abandoned while under construction in the 1800s.

If Exchange is to be the site for HS2/HS3 trains, it can be approached via Kirkby. To use this approach the tracks can be quaded; there is space along the most of the track for quadding. I few stations will need widening and the likes, but a good approach in. The metro is far more important to the economy of the city and its people, than another fast line to London.

The Merseyrail 30 years plan is better than nothing, but they are still trying save face over the HMG rightly cancelling that ridiculous stand-alone tram network. It never merged with Merseyrail showing the incompetence of this body.

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@Wavertreelad
Great Howard St is a long one. Whereabouts would the tunnel emerge (so that I can find that on Google Maps). I must say it seems to me, as an outsider, that a terminus for HS2 (HS3?) is better at Exchange, however it reaches that location.

Exchange does make sense in that the city centre is moving towards the waterfront. Lime St is at the eastern perimeter of the current city centre. If the city expands in the coming decades the city centre may move further east of Lime St, as it once did and also move onto the waterfront.

Exchange is also handy for the cruise liner terminal, although when the Edge Hill spur is completed (Wapping Tunnel), the unused platform at James St can be used as a dedicated cruise liner passenger platform. The far end of platforms extends to the riverbanks. The entrance of the station was put were it is was because a dock was in the way when constructed which is now filled in. Installing a second elevator shaft at the far end will take passengers to the riverbank with easy access to the liner terminal. The shaft could surface inside a cruise liner terminal and jointly used for normal passengers.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd be intrigued to hear more about this. As far as I'm aware, the North Mersey Branch was de-electrified sometime around 1960,

Wasn't this line used by the Liverpool Overhead to access Aintree?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The approach to Liverpool has be to a joint HS2/HS3 line. As HS3 is best to extend to North Wales, with maybe a River Dee tunnel then it is best to have Liverpool as a through station. This means approaching Liverpool from the south or east.

Another point of having a new HS2/HS3 station is that it must have connections to all Merseyrail lines, and regional lines. This includes the City Line which would be on Merseyrail when the Edge Hill spur is completed. This precludes Exchange as it is too far from Lime St. A new underground station between Central, Moorfields and Lime St is the ideal solution for connections. Also one that runs into the Mersey Rail tunnel for HS3 trains to North Wales.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes - Liverpool Overhead Railway ran to Aintree - on Grand National Days, etc.

The sparse BR passenger service ceased in 1951. See Disused Stations Site for more about the services on the North Mersey line:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/ford/index.shtml

 

[UrbanWorld]

Yes - Liverpool Overhead Railway ran to Aintree - on Grand National Days, etc.

The sparse BR passenger service ceased in 1951. See Disused Stations Site for more about the services on the North Mersey line:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/ford/index.shtml

Yes, I was right. The link states the North Mersey line was electrified in 1906 until 1956, 50 years. The Overhead Railway terminated at Aintree Sefton Arms for two years. The line was not profitable from Gladstone to Aintree. Probably because the LOR had to rent the lines from Gladstone Dock to Aintree and were competing with the owners of the lien for passengers as well; the LOR owned all the rest. Grand National LOR trains ran on the line until 1956 when it closed.

The line is used only by diesel maintenance trains. It was planned to be the northern part of the Merseyrail Outer Loop. Sefton Council wanted it reinstated a few years back. They we on about increased traffic to LFC and EFC stadia.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as building in the River Mersey this is a none starter as there is navigation channel running for the Pier Head to the entrance of Garston Docks which is adjacent to the Liverpool bank of the river. There is another navigational channel extending past Harrington Dock towards Otterspool that is used to turn tankers through 180 degrees when berthing at the Tranmere Oil Terminal on the Birkenhead side of the river.

The Garston Channel is where you described. The devils bank is opposite the tanker terminal. Are you saying a channel is dredged from Harrington of the Liverpool side across the sand bank to Tranmere on the other bank?

The sand banks are clearly shown. Looking from over Runcorn.

 

[flypie]

Just did a quick calculation. If a 4 platform station was need then, it would be possible to provide them in a single tunnel with a radius of about 6.7 meters if you made it double layer. This is only 0.5 meters bigger than Crossrails tunnels. I'm allowing 6x3 for each track run. Admittedly the platforms would not be spacious, a TBM from the same company can go up to 7m https://www.herrenknecht.com/en/products/core-products/tunnelling/single-shield-tbm.html and one of there other machine can go up to 9.5 radius https://www.herrenknecht.com/en/products/core-products/tunnelling/mixshield.html, and has been adapted to sand stone in Hastings.

 

[HSTEd]

A Liverpool High Speed Station would probably have something like:

2tph London
4-6tph HS3
2tph Birmingham/Elsewhere

That gives you up to ten trains per hour, so needing ~4-5 platforms with one in reserve. So six platforms is probably what you need, not four.

 

[flypie]

2 Tunnels then, which leave some for Trams, into town

 

[Wavertreelad]

The reason I'd want to build a tram line using the remainder of the tunnel would be to connect all of Lime Street to the areas mentioned and beyond, an extra station could be fitted in at the Byrom street cutting.
Laying tracks in the road causes lots of disruption and the roads you mention are some of the busiest in the city centre. Reducing the load of all non pedestrians on the Surface would IMHO be good. Especially when the resources are sitting their doing nothing.

I can understand why you would want to use the rest of the tunnel, but I doubt the Council would approve it because they would probably prefer passengers to enjoy the attractions of Liverpool and spend some money. They can't do this on a tram in a tunnel under Liverpool. I doubt the business case would succeed because the cruise terminal is presently not operational all year round, while the link to Liverpool Waters would need to probably need to service other locations to make it attractive to passengers.

I totally agree laying tracks in the road causes lots of disruption, and I was not suggesting that is should be done for that reason and the cost. What I was highlighting was the tunnel proposal would take passengers away from much of the city centre and even with a stop in the Byrom Street area I couldn't see it being particularly popular. A much easier and cheaper solution would be for Merseytravel to lay on a bus service from Lime Street when cruise ships are in port. Liverpool Waters is a bit more difficult because it depends on what exactly is built and when as the site is presently largely derelict open quays.

It is not difficult or expensive finding an approach for HS2/HS3. It involves using existing approaches and spending HS2/HS3 money taking the local rail of these approaches by using exiting mothballed trackbed and tunnels and using tram-trains. Here are three:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2019821&postcount=514

Have a look at using the southern section of the Northern Line and moving the line to tram-trains tuning down Aigburth Rd and the Dock Rd. Tram-trains could run down Aigburth Road
and dive underground at Dingle into the existing abandoned underground Dingle station making the station a through station, down the Dingle tunnel and onto the docks and along the Dock Road to the city centre, probably running up the Wapping Tunnel to Central station.

You mentioning the use of the mothballed eastern section of the Outer Loop line to access the old Exchange station site also deprives Liverpool of a vital metro service to its eastern suburbs, which was was promised and works started over 40 years ago. One of the Walton twin tunnels will need finishing as it was abandoned while under construction in the 1800s.

If Exchange is to be the site for HS2/HS3 trains, it can be approached via Kirkby. To use this approach the tracks can be quaded; there is space along the most of the track for quadding. I few stations will need widening and the likes, but a good approach in. The metro is far more important to the economy of the city and its people, than another fast line to London.

The Merseyrail 30 years plan is better than nothing, but they are still trying save face over the HMG rightly cancelling that ridiculous stand-alone tram network. It never merged with Merseyrail showing the incompetence of this body.

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Exchange does make sense in that the city centre is moving towards the waterfront. Lime St is at the eastern perimeter of the current city centre. If the city expands in the coming decades the city centre may move further east of Lime St, as it once did and also move onto the waterfront.

Exchange is also handy for the cruise liner terminal, although when the Edge Hill spur is completed (Wapping Tunnel), the unused platform at James St can be used as a dedicated cruise liner passenger platform. The far end of platforms extends to the riverbanks. The entrance of the station was put were it is was because a dock was in the way when constructed which is now filled in. Installing a second elevator shaft at the far end will take passengers to the riverbank with easy access to the liner terminal. The shaft could surface inside a cruise liner terminal and jointly used for normal passengers.

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Wasn't this line used by the Liverpool Overhead to access Aintree?

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The approach to Liverpool has be to a joint HS2/HS3 line. As HS3 is best to extend to North Wales, with maybe a River Dee tunnel then it is best to have Liverpool as a through station. This means approaching Liverpool from the south or east.

Another point of having a new HS2/HS3 station is that it must have connections to all Merseyrail lines, and regional lines. This includes the City Line which would be on Merseyrail when the Edge Hill spur is completed. This precludes Exchange as it is too far from Lime St. A new underground station between Central, Moorfields and Lime St is the ideal solution for connections. Also one that runs into the Mersey Rail tunnel for HS3 trains to North Wales.

I'd agree there could be an option of entering the city centre from the south of the city but think it would very expensive so had discounted it. Using the existing Merseyrail line from the Gartston for HS2/3 and putting trams or light rail on to Aigburgh Road etc is going to be hugely disruptive and expensive whilst you also reduce the options for trains from the north of the city especially if the Edge Hill spur was not constructed. In any event you would not want HS2/3 terminating in an expanded Central Station, assuming it was possible as it would be total chaos.

I can't see the Outer Loop being used in the foreseeable future in any shape or form for metro style services, especially if the Bootle Branch is eventually electrified and passenger services return to it. As for approaching Exchange from the Wigan direction, yes I'd agree it is practical, but my own preference would be share this route with freight from the Port of Liverpool as per my earlier proposal.

To me the Exchange site ticks all the right boxes, the loss of direct connectivity with the regional lines at Lime Street Station is to my mind not a major problem as many of these services will originate in locations already served either by HS2 or HS3 so why travel to Liverpool when it could be quicker and probably cheaper to travel on conventional services. Assuming the Edge Hill Spur was completed, Exchange would have access to all the local Merseyrail lines plus those on the City Line that could be diverted or combined with Merseyrail services.

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The Garston Channel is where you described. The devils bank is opposite the tanker terminal. Are you saying a channel is dredged from Harrington of the Liverpool side across the sand bank to Tranmere on the other bank?

The sand banks are clearly shown. Looking from over Runcorn.

Sorry I may have slightly mislead readers here, the point I was making was the Garston Channel extends from the Pier Head to the entrance of Garston Docks so it would not be possible to build the HS2/3 route along the river either above or below water. There is a huge turning circle mainly on the Wirral side of the river which extends east of the Tranmere Oil Terminal to allow the large tankers that still use the berths to turn through 180 degrees. Whilst it does not extend the complete width of the river at this point it would be clearly impossible to build anything in the river which would potentially interfere with the movement of craft on the river because the closer to the Pier Head you get the wider the dredged channels become.