Merseyside: New stations planned

[Wavertreelad]

^^^ Yawn...

Anyway, back to the actual topic at hand; yeah there is an actual topic...

Improving National Passenger and Freight Connections - Increasing London-Liverpool is vital, as the low frequency shrinks the natural catchment of Liverpool and Runcorn as rail heads, as is demonstrated in the 20MM report. Long distance services to Scotland, Wales and other areas need to be looked at over the coming years. Freight is important, particularly as the port is undergoing significant expansion and no HS2 means no capacity relief, particularly around Weaver Junction. This will need looking at.

Agree so far.

Enabling Growth on the Merseyrail Network - New stock for Merseyrail will need to take into account the nature of the system as a metro/s-bahn. I expect low floor units with walktrough compartments and trains with high acceleration/deceleration to deal with the closely spaced stations. The balance between how many seats there are to standing capacity will need to be right. The trains will also need to be able to deal with the tight curves or the Wirral loop, which has challenged the 507/8s over the years and the rather moist environment. Any expansions of the network onto lines which are not self-contained will almost certainly require dual AC/DC capability. I'm thinking mainly of any Edge Hill spur scheme to incorporate all or part of the 'City Line' into the underground network, as well as any Northern Line extension east of Hunts Cross.

Increasing Capacity in Liverpool City Centre - Liverpool Central takes a heavy burden, when it comes to city centre traffic. Indeed, it is by far the busiest station on the Merseyrail network. Encouraging more use of James Street and Moorfields makes sense, although Central will always be the most convenient station for much of the retail area. Additional services to mop up passenger is a good idea. I feel the Northern Line south of Central has a low frequency (by Merseyrail standards) and it doesn't help Central that 8 out of the 12 trains per hour on the Northern Line terminate. An extra 4 going to South Parkway, once the turnaround facility is built, could help a lot here. Additional stations could help. St James is one being looked at but it's maybe a bit too far south to help out Central in any significant way. A station further up, closer to Chinatown, would probably be more helpful, though it would have to be underground and so more expensive than St James.

Improving Connectivity on the City Line - the 'City Line' compares poorly with proper Merseyrail when it comes to frequency and quality of service. Improvements at Wavertree Junction are a good idea as it can be awkward for the stoppers coming from South Parkway to cross over to the north side, so that they're on the slow lines heading into Lime Street. Indeed, only one of the two trains per hour to Manchester Oxford Road call at Edge Hill. Not ideal. New stations would be welcome, especially at Wellington Road in Wavertree and Smithdown Road. University is an interesting one, as it was part of the Edge Hill Spur proposals in form of an underground station. It wouldn't surprise me with the electrification of the Chat Moss line, capacity constraints around Edge Hill & Lime Street and the fact HS2 will provide no capacity relief for the Liverpool area, that they may be revisiting this idea. It may also be a new station in the cutting between Lime Street & Edge Hill though building this on such a busy and congested stretch of line would be disruptive. Getting Merseyrail to somehow serve Speke would be good, as the Northern Line is very top-heavy currently and an extra southerly destination would be beneficial. Not sure about Runcorn though. I would've thought existing long distance services plus additional services offered by the Halton Curve would suffice. I like the idea of connecting up the airport. If the Northern Line extended to Warrington Central, perhaps an airport link could be the terminus for trains via Mossley Hill & West Allerton.

Facilitating a High Quality Service on the Cheshire Line - sounds good. I like the idea of extending Merseyrail to Warrington Central and having regional express services onwards to Manchester Airport. New stations would help make this practical. Passing places and more platforms at certain stations would probably be required which wouldn't be easy though perhaps not necessarily impossible.

Connecting via Halton Curve - no-brainer really. The most interesting aspect is the idea of the route being used for services to South Wales. Would this not be longer than going via Crewe, even with a change?

I'm not sure Metro interiors would suit some of those longer distance services, especially if network was extended as most passengers prefer to have a seat.

Dual voltage stock is a must, as this would also allow the network to be gradually converted to OHLE as the present infrastructure becomes life expired and also future proof's additional changes or additions to the network.

Any decision to directly connect Liverpool to HS2 and/or construct HS3 has enormous implications for Lime Street, assuming it remains the station of choice for these lines which appears to be the present policy. 20MM actually suggests a rebuilt Exchange Station via the Walton Tunnels and Outer Loop Line which would not only create additional capacity but could be constructed without disrupting services in and out of Lime Street. It would then be possible to link Exchange with Moorfields to allow passengers easy transfer between HS2 & HS3 services and Merseyrail services.

If the Edge Hill Spur was constructed, it would require Central to be rebuilt with additional platforms, but it would also offer many direct journey opportunities, but it would also allow some local services to be diverted away from Lime Street enabling it handle additional longer distance services. I'm not sure running an additional 8 t/ph to LSP could be justified, but an electrified Halton Curve and service to Chester perhaps could accommodate 4 t/ph whilst another 4 could use the Edge Hill spur to reach Warrington via the Chat Moss route, eliminating terminating trains at Central and taking over the currently Northern operated service. It would also allow CLC local trains to operate to and from Central and beyond thus eliminating the need to cross to the north side of Lime Street. New platforms would be required to south of Edge Hill Station to service the reopended Wapping Tunnel lines forming the Edge Hill Spur, which might enable construction of a bridge linking all the platforms with Picton Road and Spekeland Road which would improve access to the station itself which also has the potential for a large secure car park beyond the new platforms.

I'm not sure about running Merseyrail along the CLC route to Warrington I'd rather see the present terminus moved from Hunts Cross to Gatacre and the CLC route electrified at least to Manchester. This would enable the fast express train to Manchester Airport, in addition to the Chat Moss service, as well the existing stopper service to operated under wires all the way, with the prospect of TPE services via the Hope Valley eventually being electrified as well. I'd go along with the new station at Smithdown Road, and possibly Wellington Road (the old Wavertree Station), and new station to service the Universities, which I think would definitely need to be on Wapping Tunnel line, perhaps on Crown Street. The link below provides some interesting images of the area.

http://localwiki.net/liverpool/Liverpool's_Historic_Rail_Tunnels

Improving Connections to Chester and Ellesmere Port - both of these towns are outside of Merseytravel's area. Electrifying to Helsby could expand the Merseyrail service, removing the diesel island. Crewe-Chester is interesting. Why do Merseytravel care? Some say Merseyrail could be extended to Crewe but we're getting rather far out at this point. Chester-London services could be electric but many extend into North Wales and so would need to still be diesel or shunted. Could they be thinking of yet another diversion route for Liverpool-London/Birmingham trains? Chester-Leeds sounds fun and I assume Merseytravel are mainly thinking about services for Newton-le-Willows.

As the Halton Curve has been approved, it would seem logical to electrify it and the route to Chester and Ellesmere Port but with OHLE in conjunction with wiring Chester to Manchester. This, and the Edge Hill Spur would allow trains to operate on a circular route to Ellesmere Port all stops, and a fast service via the Halton route to Chester, ultimately. I don't think Mersey operating to Crewe is going to happen, but I could Lime Street via Halton and Chester to Cardiff, Bristol and perhaps Southampton, or Exeter areas as options

Serving New Development on the Southport – Wigan and Ormskirk – Preston Line - Merseyrail extension to Preston could be a welcome development, however, one has to think of how many trains it would justify. Perhaps a 2tph of the 4tph to Ormskirk? Extending the Ormskirk branch to Burscough Bridge is a decent idea as it allows interchange with the Southport=Wigan/Manchester line.

Connecting to Skelmersdale and New Development in Wigan - I've always thought the Kirkby line should extend to Skelmersdale and that the Wigan/Manchester side should also go into Skelmersdale. This would be done with a delta junction on the existing line. Sure, certain stations either side would loose direct services to each other but that is par for course with such alterations. Merseytravel seem to be looking at a slightly different idea: Skelmersdale but with the Wigan services continuing to Kirkby. Indeed, they want improved services between Kirkby and Manchester/Rochdale but Kirkby's not a natural terminus for such services.

I'd agree extending to Preston with OHLE, but agree 4 t/ph might be overkill. Perhaps extending two to Blackburn or beyond when this is electrified might be an option?

Extending Kirkby to Wigan with OHLE with a delta junction to Skelmersdale is a definite prospect if the Bootle Branch can be connected at Kirkdale as the majority of the route is being cleared for intermodal traffic it would seem logical to use the entire route for this purpose.

Enhancing the Borderlands Line - incorporating this into Merseyrail sounds nice though I have reservations about the long distance and rural nature of the line. I always liked the idea of the scheme to create a new link so that, after Woodchurch, Borderlands trains would head due east on a new alignment terminating at a high level station at Birkenhead Central. Merseyrail would take the small remainder towards Bidston. The idea was dropped a long time ago and probably won't re-emerge though.

I suspect the Bordlands Line will eventually be wired but it might be done in two stages starting when Merseyrail start to acquire dual voltage stock. I could see the Wirral section wired first as far as new park and ride station built alongside where the line is crossed by the M53 or perhaps as far as Neston to serve the Liverpool commuter belt traffic. This could generate a sparks affect on the line which could then hasten electrification of the rest of the route to Wrexham.

Converting Freight Lines to Passenger Usage - big reservations about this. It's one of those ideas that sounds good before you get to the practicalities. A freight line from Olive Mount to Bootle Docks is a rather circuitous alignment for getting people from the likes of Tue Brook into the city centre, although I'm sure, journey time-wise, it would be competitive in the rush hour. Also, it would have to not have a detrimental effect on the freight, which is important for the dock activity and which is predicted to grow over the coming years..

I'd tend to agree but returning the Bootle Branch to passenger traffic is not necessarily about getting the fastest journey time to the city centre, it is more to do with connecting the areas served by the stations on the route with parts of the region that are currently not served directly, ie imagine Liverpool as half a bicycle wheel. At the moment most cross city travel on busses requires the passenger to take one journey into the city centre to get another bus out to the desired destination. Not only is this expensive, but it is time consuming. If the Bootle Branch and North Mersey lines were both returned to passenger use the prospect for travel journeys increases and thus the options for employment. Yes I know the 60, 61, 68 and 81 bus route all partly serve this purpose but the 60 & 81 follow the same route from Stonecroft, whilst neither the 61 or 68 could be considered as direct. Furthermore, if the alternative route via Kirkby and Wigan was developed, the pressure on freight services would diminish and I suspect the majority of intermodal trains would run overnight anyway after passenger services have ceased or reduced.
[/QUOTE]

Selected New Stations - I agree with all the proposed stations mentioned. The likes of Town Meadow have been on the table for at least 25 years. There definitely needs to be at least one new station between Moorfields and Vauxhall, however, the population density of that stretch is still fairly low, so it make take years of re-population before we see it.

Town Meadow from new, and reopening St James, Sefton Park (Smithdown Road), Ditton are good prospects and I suspect will happen eventually, the rest really depend on which extension schemes are taken forward.

 

[muddythefish]

Agree so far.



I'd agree extending to Preston with OHLE, but agree 4 t/ph might be overkill. Perhaps extending two to Blackburn or beyond when this is electrified might be an option?

There used to be regular trains from East Lancs and Hellifield to Liverpool in the 1950 and 60s using a spur that connected with the Preston-Ormskirk line from the Farrington curve (I think I'm right in saying that). I remember about 1968 seeing a Brush Type 4 with a 60-wagon freight presumably from the Liverpool area waiting on the curve for our Blackburn-Preston DMU to clear. The curve was lifted in the 1970s I believe.

I'm not that familiar with railways the Liverpool area but the DC Merseyside network always seemed an anomaly to me. Presumably alot of the DC equipment is old now; are there any plans to replace the third rail with AC OHLE so it is compatible with the rest of the national network (outside the SE of course)?

 

[RickyB]

Just come across this forum and thought I'd add this. I've tried to interpret last month's proposals in the form of an updated map. There will certainly be errors (I didn't use the most up-to-date map for a start) but I wanted to try and visualise what could potentially result from these plans.

 

[frodshamfella]

Maybe for business but for tourism Liverpool has massive pulling power.

I agree, touristically Liverpool is a greater draw than Manchester, and is known worldwide.

 

[Bevan Price]

OK - bearing in mind your thoughts, suggest somewhere within the city boundaries were this could be possible bearing in mind transport links to consider too. Oh by the way, it is NOT the whole park that will disappear just partial in a particular corner close to their existing ground.

(It sounds you dont like football but you must remember, both football clubs, as well as others especially Manchester, they generate lots of income for local business with an average of 40000 per game (or more), attract tourists and the list goes on, so it is here to stay and EFC do need a new ground as development of Goodison Park is extremely diffciult so where do they go?).

I don't dislike football (although I prefer the type of ball used by rugby league). My objection is that it regards itself almost as some kind of god, more important than anything else. Most towns & cities need more green open spaces, not less.

(And I think there would be space to fit a football ground near the "river" side of Sandhills / Bank Hall stations - maybe partly filling-in some of the older, little-used docks. Obviously, some negotiation with current owners would be needed to implement this. If the council does give way to the Walton Park idea, then it should be made a condition that, in compensation, Goodison Park is converted to a public open space & park - an extension of nearby Stanley Park)

 

[Mutant Lemming]

That is not what is being proposed nor suggested; to make the investment work you need to build critical mass in a regional centre; therefore the intent is to focus investment on Manchester so it can achieve critical mass [/url]

A soulless mass devoid of identity and character which pretty much epitomises Manchester. Let's not drag Liverpool down to the same level.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There used to be regular trains from East Lancs and Hellifield to Liverpool in the 1950 and 60s using a spur that connected with the Preston-Ormskirk line from the Farrington curve (I think I'm right in saying that).

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway had a regular passenger train service from Liverpool Exchange to Blackburn, via Ormskirk. I think that there were also goods trains of imported cotton fibre bales from the Liverpool area to the Blackburn region.

 

[martynbristow]

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway had a regular passenger train service from Liverpool Exchange to Blackburn, via Ormskirk. I think that there were also goods trains of imported cotton fibre bales from the Liverpool area to the Blackburn region.

Yes I'm pretty sure about this.
We have a little old timetable at Heywood station on the East Lancashire Railway where there were trains to Liverpool. I think it said something about getting to the exchanges.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There used to be regular trains from East Lancs and Hellifield to Liverpool in the 1950 and 60s using a spur that connected with the Preston-Ormskirk line from the Farrington curve (I think I'm right in saying that). I remember about 1968 seeing a Brush Type 4 with a 60-wagon freight presumably from the Liverpool area waiting on the curve for our Blackburn-Preston DMU to clear. The curve was lifted in the 1970s I believe.

I'm not that familiar with railways the Liverpool area but the DC Merseyside network always seemed an anomaly to me. Presumably alot of the DC equipment is old now; are there any plans to replace the third rail with AC OHLE so it is compatible with the rest of the national network (outside the SE of course)?

Potentially however its probably a question of costs.
Theres a parallel discussion about new stock and the issue of 25kV running through through the tunnels cropped up wrt to safety and fitting in the cables. I'm no electrical engineer but I don't think 25kv in a damp environment is a good idea, theres enough problems as it is with point motors/axel counters etc.

I'd immagine a lit of the kit is constantly being upgraded so an outright switch would not benefit hugely however potentially a phased transition could occur but i think it would be too expensive putting in large number of concrete bases and the actual logistics doing it on a ~20 hour railway although not impossible.

With new rolling stock needed to fill the capacity gap and to support any network growth it could become more economic to switch to convert a line or two.

But don't hold your breath, there will be more objections to expansion/changes than I get hot coffee.

I remember reading many moons ago an objection to a potential electrification to Preston because someone with a house that backed onto the Preston-Ormskirk branch found the hourly service too noisy :/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agree so far.



I'm not sure Metro interiors would suit some of those longer distance services, especially if network was extended as most passengers prefer to have a seat.

Dual voltage stock is a must, as this would also allow the network to be gradually converted to OHLE as the present infrastructure becomes life expired and also future proof's additional changes or additions to the network.

Any decision to directly connect Liverpool to HS2 and/or construct HS3 has enormous implications for Lime Street, assuming it remains the station of choice for these lines which appears to be the present policy. 20MM actually suggests a rebuilt Exchange Station via the Walton Tunnels and Outer Loop Line which would not only create additional capacity but could be constructed without disrupting services in and out of Lime Street. It would then be possible to link Exchange with Moorfields to allow passengers easy transfer between HS2 & HS3 services and Merseyrail services.

If the Edge Hill Spur was constructed, it would require Central to be rebuilt with additional platforms, but it would also offer many direct journey opportunities, but it would also allow some local services to be diverted away from Lime Street enabling it handle additional longer distance services. I'm not sure running an additional 8 t/ph to LSP could be justified, but an electrified Halton Curve and service to Chester perhaps could accommodate 4 t/ph whilst another 4 could use the Edge Hill spur to reach Warrington via the Chat Moss route, eliminating terminating trains at Central and taking over the currently Northern operated service. It would also allow CLC local trains to operate to and from Central and beyond thus eliminating the need to cross to the north side of Lime Street. New platforms would be required to south of Edge Hill Station to service the reopended Wapping Tunnel lines forming the Edge Hill Spur, which might enable construction of a bridge linking all the platforms with Picton Road and Spekeland Road which would improve access to the station itself which also has the potential for a large secure car park beyond the new platforms.

I'm not sure about running Merseyrail along the CLC route to Warrington I'd rather see the present terminus moved from Hunts Cross to Gatacre and the CLC route electrified at least to Manchester. This would enable the fast express train to Manchester Airport, in addition to the Chat Moss service, as well the existing stopper service to operated under wires all the way, with the prospect of TPE services via the Hope Valley eventually being electrified as well. I'd go along with the new station at Smithdown Road, and possibly Wellington Road (the old Wavertree Station), and new station to service the Universities, which I think would definitely need to be on Wapping Tunnel line, perhaps on Crown Street. The link below provides some interesting images of the area.

http://localwiki.net/liverpool/Liverpool's_Historic_Rail_Tunnels




As the Halton Curve has been approved, it would seem logical to electrify it and the route to Chester and Ellesmere Port but with OHLE in conjunction with wiring Chester to Manchester. This, and the Edge Hill Spur would allow trains to operate on a circular route to Ellesmere Port all stops, and a fast service via the Halton route to Chester, ultimately. I don't think Mersey operating to Crewe is going to happen, but I could Lime Street via Halton and Chester to Cardiff, Bristol and perhaps Southampton, or Exeter areas as options



I'd agree extending to Preston with OHLE, but agree 4 t/ph might be overkill. Perhaps extending two to Blackburn or beyond when this is electrified might be an option?

Extending Kirkby to Wigan with OHLE with a delta junction to Skelmersdale is a definite prospect if the Bootle Branch can be connected at Kirkdale as the majority of the route is being cleared for intermodal traffic it would seem logical to use the entire route for this purpose.



I suspect the Bordlands Line will eventually be wired but it might be done in two stages starting when Merseyrail start to acquire dual voltage stock. I could see the Wirral section wired first as far as new park and ride station built alongside where the line is crossed by the M53 or perhaps as far as Neston to serve the Liverpool commuter belt traffic. This could generate a sparks affect on the line which could then hasten electrification of the rest of the route to Wrexham.




I'd tend to agree but returning the Bootle Branch to passenger traffic is not necessarily about getting the fastest journey time to the city centre, it is more to do with connecting the areas served by the stations on the route with parts of the region that are currently not served directly, ie imagine Liverpool as half a bicycle wheel. At the moment most cross city travel on busses requires the passenger to take one journey into the city centre to get another bus out to the desired destination. Not only is this expensive, but it is time consuming. If the Bootle Branch and North Mersey lines were both returned to passenger use the prospect for travel journeys increases and thus the options for employment. Yes I know the 60, 61, 68 and 81 bus route all partly serve this purpose but the 60 & 81 follow the same route from Stonecroft, whilst neither the 61 or 68 could be considered as direct. Furthermore, if the alternative route via Kirkby and Wigan was developed, the pressure on freight services would diminish and I suspect the majority of intermodal trains would run overnight anyway after passenger services have ceased or reduced.

Town Meadow from new, and reopening St James, Sefton Park (Smithdown Road), Ditton are good prospects and I suspect will happen eventually, the rest really depend on which extension schemes are taken forward.[/QUOTE]

Extension from Ormskirk:
Potentially 2tph LivCentral-Ormskirk-Southport, 2tph (Fast?) to Preston, 2tph Maghull North
Although capacity on the Liverpool Link is a problem.

Bootle Branch: sorely needed!

Borderlands: If you offered a more integrated service it would probably do quite well. 2tph into Birkenhead North with only 2 minute for a Liverpool Central service could prove popular. Currently the area relies on buses or cars to a station.
When I chose my house I picked one near to transport as I didn't drive then. It could boost the areas significantly. If it does well then you could go electrifying.

 

[L+Y]

There used to be regular trains from East Lancs and Hellifield to Liverpool in the 1950 and 60s using a spur that connected with the Preston-Ormskirk line from the Farrington curve (I think I'm right in saying that). I remember about 1968 seeing a Brush Type 4 with a 60-wagon freight presumably from the Liverpool area waiting on the curve for our Blackburn-Preston DMU to clear. The curve was lifted in the 1970s I believe.

Interesting to hear that, as I'd thought freight useage of the Preston-Liverpool L&Y line had largely finished by 1968. That said, I know Ormskirk goods yard continued on (just about!) into 1969.

Anyway, yes, the spur ran from Moss Lane Junction to Lostock Hall Engine Shed junction. It was used by stopping trains from Ormskirk and Exchange into Preston East Lancs, with the semi-fast trains to Preston North Union and Blackpool running down the current alignment to Farington Curve Junction. It was certainly used up until at least 1969 (when Lostock Hall station closed), and possibly as late as 1972.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway had a regular passenger train service from Liverpool Exchange to Blackburn, via Ormskirk. I think that there were also goods trains of imported cotton fibre bales from the Liverpool area to the Blackburn region.

Not to forget the through trains from Blackburn to Liverpool Lime St via Chorley and Wigan NW over the Lancashire Union Railway (L&Y and LNWR joint line).
Used the wonderfully named Boar's Head Junction (nearly as good as Throstle Nest Junction on the CLC).
The route via Chorley closed in 1960.

 

[8A Rail]

(And I think there would be space to fit a football ground near the "river" side of Sandhills / Bank Hall stations - maybe partly filling-in some of the older, little-used docks. Obviously, some negotiation with current owners would be needed to implement this. If the council does give way to the Walton Park idea, then it should be made a condition that, in compensation, Goodison Park is converted to a public open space & park - an extension of nearby Stanley Park)

Good idea but take an awful lot of money and time for anywhere near Sandhills / Bank Hall and I cannot see the EFC paying for that, unless a third party decided to foot the bill. I wholly agree about converting Goodison Park to a public open space, it is the least they can do.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Good idea but take an awful lot of money and time for anywhere near Sandhills / Bank Hall and I cannot see the EFC paying for that, unless a third party decided to foot the bill. I wholly agree about converting Goodison Park to a public open space, it is the least they can do.

I doubt there are any suitable sites in north Liverpool which has been the problem all along and the derelict dock estate between Sandon and Trafalgar dock are already earmarked for development by Peel over the next thirty years. Of course they could revise their plans and build a multi purpose stadium, perhaps with conference facilities as a means of kick starting the development, but I also couldn't see Everton paying for it.

 

[prod_pep]

Hope you had the chance to give them a go. I thought it was longer than 5 or six years since the last fleet was introduced although I could be wrong and I wouldn't think it was much earlier than that. I think it is because the 86 an 86A is almost a flagship route. The older (Uglier) Alexander bodied buses are being cascaded to other routes currently using single deckers I believe (Hopefully keeping the same frequency) so everyone is a winner.

Just for the record, the last fleet renewal for the Arriva 86/86A was 2006 when the Volvo double deckers were introduced. Arriva's new buses on the 86 certainly show up Stagecoach's offerings!

 

[frodshamfella]

I doubt there are very few from this end of the East Lancs that would not agree that Manchester is the principle city for the North of England, although there could be a entirely separate debate on how this situation came about which is not for this thread. However, the two cities are complimentary to each other in many ways but remain rivals in others which explains the sometimes the huge difference in aspirations and development in recent decades leading to the current situation.


I'd agree there is an issue which is potentially going to get worse, but I'm not sure there is much more Peel can do when the problem is beyond their borders. The local council and even central government have all be made aware of the likely requirements of port expansion in the planning and lobbying process over a long period of time and on which they gave the green light. Whilst the present situation is not critical I suspect in five to ten years time we will have reached that point so given it has taken thirty or more years to start the Thornton to Switch Island relief road construction there is a pressing need to get things underway before a critical stage is reached.



Agree.



The modern container terminal requires very little in the way of logistics facilities apart from those required by statutory authorities such as HMRC, Port Health, Defra and the Forestry Commission as the vast majority of containers are full loads and are handled on a door to door basis. This is particularly the case in the North American trade in which Liverpool is the market leader in terms of volume which is mature. Less than container traffic is relatively small and almost entirely controlled and operated by freight forwarders who tend to move the containers to inland warehouses for loading and unloading very often combining these activities with road and airfreight operations. This is one reason why a large number of containers still move from UK Ports to the like of Manchester Airport and the Wythenshawe area of Manchester. However, some cargoes like steel and raw metal, paper and animal feed which are all carried in containers are very often unloaded in the port at adjacent facilities to the main terminal operation because of the special equipment, or handling and/or storage required which may not always be available at the final inland delivery point.

With Liverpool's cargo capture area being between 125 and 150 miles this places most of the North of England within a four hour road journey. At this point it should also be noted that most shipping lines operate a multiple UK Port policy in the UK, ie ACL is regarded as a Liverpool based carrier, but it also takes spaces on Hapag Lloyd sailings to the US/Canadian east and gulf coast from London Gateway and Southampton to service customers in the south of England although this option is not always available for every port to port combination. Whilst the port is now handling more containers from other ports around the world, these are arriving and departing on feeder vessels because in most cases the cargo is destined for locations in the area which is why there is no desperate requirement for intermodal services. When the larger containerships start to call at the end of next year, this could change dramatically although until contracts are signed it is almost impossible to predict. The issue of competitiveness of Liverpool against other UK Ports will also change because at the moment the infrastructure including transport is not fully utilised and thus rates and profit levels remain low. Road congestion is only one part of the calculation, so it is important that the issues are dealt with appropriately.



With a dwindling population and employment opportunities over the last three of four decades it is perhaps easier to consider the reasons why some of these schemes have never progressed but yet regularly get revived and perhaps upgraded. This may not be bad thing, particularly when situations change. With the region slowly beginning to shows signed of economic recovery etc., I feel it is appropriate that these schemes are revived and re-examined and if necessary updated to accommodate today's requirements. The Wapping Tunnel proposals date back to the 1970's but their possible use in linking the City Line to Northern and Wirral Lines would also potentially provide additional capacity for Lime Street Station to enable the station to handle more longer distance services.



There has to be start to any process, and if the proposals are all knocked back then the planners will have start again and/or modify the proposals. Whether this is hood winking the public is difficult to tell, because if the scheme is announced and not built one would expect the general public would be fully aware of the failings of the past and call for suitable action to be taken.



This is one that only time will tell.




And presumably the locations served by improved transport links, like the proposed HS3.

[

Liverpool Airport is slowly expanding once again ( new routes announced by Wizz Air and Blue Air ) Ryanair is a fickle airlines and will reduce and increase services at a drop of a hat, normally its the "deal" they are getting. Easyjet less so, although why they moved Liverpool to Gibraltar recently to Manchester when the route out of Liverpool was fully subscribed is difficult to understand.

Its not all roses at Manchester Airport either, services have also been dropped from there ( BA for example, only LHR left), however it will still remain the main hub for the North of England, but other airports like Leeds/Bradford and Liverpool etc are very much needed as capacity at Manchester diminishes, it is already becoming a very unplesant experience to use for the passenger passing through security, which is nightmarishly slow.

More passenger from Cheshire and North Wales will use Liverpool Airport when Halton curve is available for rail services, 250,000 per annum come from that area by car now, this will grow with rail additions.

 

[fowler9]

Just for the record, the last fleet renewal for the Arriva 86/86A was 2006 when the Volvo double deckers were introduced. Arriva's new buses on the 86 certainly show up Stagecoach's offerings!

Cheers for that, I was close ish, thought it was a few years longer than 5 or 6. The new buses are quite nice, as for Stagecoach I'm glad they operate down our way as it boosts the service. They always seem emptier than the Arriva services which isn't surprising since if you live in the south end of the city you would surely get an Arriva ticket for the coverage the provide (Unless of course you have a Solo Trio or Saveaway).

As an aside it is funny seeing so many Stagecoach buses serving South Parkway given I believe they originally described it as a white elephant.

 

[wirelessone]

Well with Everton's move to Walton Hall Park in the bag it seems, the case for reinstating the Outer Loop Line is now surely a no brainer. The track runs literally to the right of the park by Richard Kelly/Blackthorne Road. There is a huge amount of space for a station there and could not be better situated.
I am a Liverpool fan but will be writing to EFC asking them to build it into their plans for the good of the city!

 

[Wavertreelad]

Well with Everton's move to Walton Hall Park in the bag it seems, the case for reinstating the Outer Loop Line is now surely a no brainer. The track runs literally to the right of the park by Richard Kelly/Blackthorne Road. There is a huge amount of space for a station there and could not be better situated.
I am a Liverpool fan but will be writing to EFC asking them to build it into their plans for the good of the city!

One problem is the route is not on the 30 year plan, however given it's take Liverpool FC almost being able to start work next year on extending Anfield I doubt there will be a rush, and they still have to find a developer.

Apart from the issue that part of route is also partly blocked by an access road to the Sainsbury store on East Prescott Road, which might be possible to move, the question arises of which way would you route line north of the proposed stadium, back towards Kirkdale or to Aintree, perhaps even connecting to the North Mersey Line which could also provide a route back to Central by a longer route but would open up a large portion of the outer city areas to rail travel that are completely devoid of any rail services.

The obvious problem is that the Bootle Branch is already open to rail traffic on the 30 year plan for returning passenger services to the line. It also lies between both Anfield and the proposed new stadium making it perhaps more suitable for both if a stadiums if a station could be constructed near to the Cherry Lane area.

 

[wirelessone]

Thanks for the reply Wavertreelad. Well, where there's a will there's a way.

I think the Petrol station at Sainsbury's could easily be moved over to the opposite side of the car-park. No doubt tax payers will have to pay for it though!

Crucially the MPTE could liaise with Everton for funding or even Europe (if we're still in it by then!).

Your point about where the track goes to after the park is a crucial one. Again if the line could get to Aintree (obstructions permitting) again, it would mean that yet another venue (Grand National) is fast and easy to get to by rail from the south of the city.

I have indeed emailed EFC, the Echo and MPTE pointing this great opportunity and although this is not in the Merseyrail 30 year plan, surely this news is a game changer?

 

[fowler9]

Thanks for the reply Wavertreelad. Well, where there's a will there's a way.

I think the Petrol station at Sainsbury's could easily be moved over to the opposite side of the car-park. No doubt tax payers will have to pay for it though!

Crucially the MPTE could liaise with Everton for funding or even Europe (if we're still in it by then!).

Your point about where the track goes to after the park is a crucial one. Again if the line could get to Aintree (obstructions permitting) again, it would mean that yet another venue (Grand National) is fast and easy to get to by rail from the south of the city.

I have indeed emailed EFC, the Echo and MPTE pointing this great opportunity and although this is not in the Merseyrail 30 year plan, surely this news is a game changer?

Does that area of the city need a fast and easy link on a regular basis from the south end of the city to the extent someone would pay for it?

 

[wirelessone]

Fowler9,

I would say definitely YES!

Re-opening Gateacre, would be great for it's huge shopping centre down the road in Belle Vale, Gateacre Comp's new school is within easy reach, plus the tourist trade for John Lennon's old haunts in Woolton.

Broadgreen?... a definite yes for connections to City Line stations.

Knotty Ash?....not too far away from the newly under construction Alder Hey.

West Derby?... Handy for Croxteth Park.

Whether the other stations would be feasible is open to question.

The 81 bus which covers most of the former route is extremely slow and unreliable.

A football stadium right next to the line would open all sorts of opportunities.

As with new bus routes, they have to be first in existence and reliable to create the demand.
The buses are in all currently private hands, so will only go on the busiest routes cherry picked for maximum profit.
The MPTE at least has control of where trains go in this city, and so can invest in new routes to create the demand.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

 

[fowler9]

Fowler9,

I would say definitely YES!

Re-opening Gateacre, would be great for it's huge shopping centre down the road in Belle Vale, Gateacre Comp's new school is within easy reach, plus the tourist trade for John Lennon's old haunts in Woolton.

Broadgreen?... a definite yes for connections to City Line stations.

Knotty Ash?....not too far away from the newly under construction Alder Hey.

West Derby?... Handy for Croxteth Park.

Whether the other stations would be feasible is open to question.

The 81 bus which covers most of the former route is extremely slow and unreliable.

A football stadium right next to the line would open all sorts of opportunities.

As with new bus routes, they have to be first in existence and reliable to create the demand.
The buses are in all currently private hands, so will only go on the busiest routes cherry picked for maximum profit.
The MPTE at least has control of where trains go in this city, and so can invest in new routes to create the demand.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

I would love to see it happen, I just doubt anyone would stump up the cash. The 81 is bad but if a private bus company won't improve the service what is the likelyhood of someone paying for a railway route?

 

[Bevan Price]

Fowler9,

I would say definitely YES!

Re-opening Gateacre, would be great for it's huge shopping centre down the road in Belle Vale, Gateacre Comp's new school is within easy reach, plus the tourist trade for John Lennon's old haunts in Woolton.

Broadgreen?... a definite yes for connections to City Line stations.

Knotty Ash?....not too far away from the newly under construction Alder Hey.

West Derby?... Handy for Croxteth Park.

Whether the other stations would be feasible is open to question.

The 81 bus which covers most of the former route is extremely slow and unreliable.

A football stadium right next to the line would open all sorts of opportunities.

As with new bus routes, they have to be first in existence and reliable to create the demand.
The buses are in all currently private hands, so will only go on the busiest routes cherry picked for maximum profit.
The MPTE at least has control of where trains go in this city, and so can invest in new routes to create the demand.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Gateacre - a good 10 minute walk from Belle Vale - maybe OK for the young & fit, but won't be attractive for older people carrying bags of shopping. In any case, people from other parts of Liverpool are more likely to use city centre shops rather than Belle Vale.

Knotty Ash - again a longish walk from Alder Hey Hospital.

Station for football ground - a station used for only 40 - 50 days per year will be difficult to finance. Unlikely to attract much other traffic as route to city centre is too long.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Gateacre - a good 10 minute walk from Belle Vale - maybe OK for the young & fit, but won't be attractive for older people carrying bags of shopping. In any case, people from other parts of Liverpool are more likely to use city centre shops rather than Belle Vale.

Knotty Ash - again a longish walk from Alder Hey Hospital.

Station for football ground - a station used for only 40 - 50 days per year will be difficult to finance. Unlikely to attract much other traffic as route to city centre is too long.

The petrol station at Sainsbury is probably ok, it's the access road to the rear of the store that really blocks the route, but I think it could just about be moved to the other side of store.

With Alder Hey being rebuilt near East Prescott Road, the station would a station on the site of the old Knotty Ash and Stanley Station would be almost yards from the hospital.

Gatacre and Belle Valle I agree a bit far away, but I think there would still be sufficient passenger opportunities on the line to use LSP as an interchange, or for accessing employment at either ends of the route - I'd prefer linking it to the North Mersey Line for this purpose which would potentially allow trains to operate in a circular route. Ok from some locations the bus into town will be quicker, traffic permitting, but the north south options which links all the Merseyrail lines in Liverpool is a compelling case. The station to serve to the football stadium would be in full use 7 days a weeks, so commercially it should work.

However agree the cost would be high, but perhaps not as much as being spent in cities elsewhere in the UK on comparable schemes?

 

[ivanhoe]

I would love to see it happen, I just doubt anyone would stump up the cash. The 81 is bad but if a private bus company won't improve the service what is the likelyhood of someone paying for a railway route?

Aren't there not 3 81's per hour until say 19.00? Its always been a slow route but very few passengers go all the way. Back in the good old days there were only 2 per hour. Have things changed dramatically on the 81?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Fowler9,

I would say definitely YES!

Re-opening Gateacre, would be great for it's huge shopping centre down the road in Belle Vale, Gateacre Comp's new school is within easy reach, plus the tourist trade for John Lennon's old haunts in Woolton.

Broadgreen?... a definite yes for connections to City Line stations.

Knotty Ash?....not too far away from the newly under construction Alder Hey.

West Derby?... Handy for Croxteth Park.

Whether the other stations would be feasible is open to question.

The 81 bus which covers most of the former route is extremely slow and unreliable.

A football stadium right next to the line would open all sorts of opportunities.

As with new bus routes, they have to be first in existence and reliable to create the demand.
The buses are in all currently private hands, so will only go on the busiest routes cherry picked for maximum profit.
The MPTE at least has control of where trains go in this city, and so can invest in new routes to create the demand.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

The same reason the line never prospered in the first place is still equally valid now -

Knotty Ash - journey time by rail to Liverpool Central 35 minutes
Journey time by bus 20 minutes with up to 20 buses an hour (routes 8, 9, 10, 10A)

West Derby - journey time by rail to Liverpool Central 38 minutes
Journey time by bus 20 minutes with up to 18 buses an hour (routes 12, 13, 15)
It was the same back in the days of the tram and it is the same today. People are not going to trek to a station to make a longer journey than they would by catching a bus close to their house.
The only no brainer is suggesting spending money on a line no one will use.

 

[ivanhoe]

I remember ML that when they reopened the line to Garston in 1974, route 500 which went from Speke to Kirkby via city center , limited stop, was replaced by a bus 84 which went from Speke to Garston station. At the time the Kirkby train went to Garston via Central. The 84 was soon stood down because people going to town just caught the 82 or H1 which was just as quick as changing from bus to train.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Aren't there not 3 81's per hour until say 19.00? Its always been a slow route but very few passengers go all the way. Back in the good old days there were only 2 per hour. Have things changed dramatically on the 81?

The time table 81 & 81A indicates a service every 10 minutes with a journey time of just on an hour end to end. The question of whether passengers travel the entire route really does matter as I doubt very few routes only carry passengers end to end, otherwise they would only have two stops.

The same reason the line never prospered in the first place is still equally valid now -

Knotty Ash - journey time by rail to Liverpool Central 35 minutes
Journey time by bus 20 minutes with up to 20 buses an hour (routes 8, 9, 10, 10A)

West Derby - journey time by rail to Liverpool Central 38 minutes
Journey time by bus 20 minutes with up to 18 buses an hour (routes 12, 13, 15)
It was the same back in the days of the tram and it is the same today. People are not going to trek to a station to make a longer journey than they would by catching a bus close to their house.
The only no brainer is suggesting spending money on a line no one will use.

Hang on a moment, the line to Gatacre survived for passenger services to the early 1970's but the decision to concentrate all services on Lime Street and the subsequent closure of Central high level resulted in the closure of the last service, that was supposed to be restored by Merseytravel when the tunnels in Liverpool were completed and services reopened to Garston.

I'd totally agree the journey time into the city centre from most of the station locations in the central area of the line would be quicker by bus, but then would this not be expected for what is a circular route around the city suburbs? From Gatacre the journey time is much longer, perhaps nearly an hour in peak. In fact my earlier point actually stated this and whilst I accept there may not be many passengers travelling the entire length to route, say Central to West Derby you would likely find a steady flow of passengers travelling part of the route providing there was a steady frequency.

Assuming the current services that terminate at Central were extended beyond to Gatacre this would increase capacity at Central and create and frequency of services along the southern stretch of the existing Northern Line route, which would be largely commuter traffic. Phase 2 would see the route extended north to Aintree with a junction to the North Mersey Line and perhaps north to the Ormskirk Line. Phase 3 would see the reopening of the North Mersey line but equally this stage could switch with phase 2 as this line already is included in the 30 year plan.

On the Gatacre /Aintree section new or reopened stations would be Broadgreen, Knotty Ash & Stanley, West Derby, Norris Green, Everton Stadium area, Walton (Black Bull). Broadgreen would interchange with City Line services, Knotty Ash & Stanley, could serve Alder Hey and perhaps even Broad Green Hospital, Walton (Blackbull) serving the busy shopping centre and large surrounding residential area. The connection to the North Mersey line would serve the industrial area around Bridle Road, including the Santander operation where Merseytravel have already proposed a station.

Alternatively instead of extending the Aintree, the route could follow the original route back to the city centre with a station near to Rice Lane before entering the Walton on the Hill tunnels and back to Kirkdale.

Apart from the cost of reopening the route, the other potential problem is that route via Kirkdale forms part of proposal of the 20 Miles more alternatives for a HS2 station in Liverpool on the former Exchange Station site, rather than the official plan to construct any such station at Lime Street. I would therefore suspect any prospect of the route being reopened would only be officially proposed once the plans for HS2/3 have been finalised.

 

[wirelessone]

Mutant Lemming......


I was laughing out loud at your bus timings!

I live slap bang between the 10/9/8 route and the 15 so I use all these services on a daily basis.

The following is of course for terms times...

In the morning rush hour from the Kentucky on East Prescot Road to Dale Street in term time takes 1 HOUR. Old Swan is a nightmare and the approach to Prescot Street in Kenny is also hugely congested.

Getting the 15 from Alder Hey is slightly quicker, about 45 minutes.

On the way back...
Getting on any of these routes from Victoria Street past London Road on to Kenny/West Derby Road takes 20 minutes at least!

So give me the 38 minute train journey any day of the week son!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Mutant Lemming......


I was laughing out loud at your bus timings!

I live slap bang between the 10/9/8 route and the 15 so I use all these services on a daily basis.

The following is of course for terms times...

In the morning rush hour from the Kentucky on East Prescot Road to Dale Street in term time takes 1 HOUR. Old Swan is a nightmare and the approach to Prescot Street in Kenny is also hugely congested.

Getting the 15 from Alder Hey is slightly quicker, about 45 minutes.

On the way back...
Getting on any of these routes from Victoria Street past London Road on to Kenny/West Derby Road takes 20 minutes at least!

So give me the 38 minute train journey any day of the week son!

From Stockbridge Village (nee Cantril Farm) on the 12 or 13 has never taken more than an hour and it is twice the distance of West Derby in to town. Average time from the Miller to Lime Street is 20 minutes.
Much as I would prefer to travel in to town by train it is quicker and more convenient to take the bus - it's why the line closed in the first place. Liverpool doesn't have sufficient cross suburban passenger traffic to warrant such expense on a railway.
The majority of traffic in provincial cities is radial from the centre to the suburbs. Why aren't there cross or even inter town links on the metrolink ? No Bolton > Bury > Rochdale service (potential routings on old lines exists), No Stockport > Stalybridge service and none planned in the future either.
Rather than spend money on such white elephant solutions it would be better to revive plans for trams and run them to the poorly served Eastern suburbs along the Prescot and West Derby Road corridors to Stockbridge and Croxteth connecting them to the city centre.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The transport plan is all about improving connectivity and economic activity, so you have to looks at the activities being carried out in the area. There is currently a large amount of empty office space in Liverpool city centre, indicating a general decline in office base jobs due to greater use of technology. It must therefore be assumed the majority of those travelling into the city centre are involved in the retail trade or entertainment in broad terms. There is a general trend for new and small business to develop on the outskirts of the city centre where any large industry is also likely to be located as well as major facilities as the city area generally expands. There is a need to improve public transport links in some of these areas to facilitate easy travel, and a cross city alternative to what is currently a monopoly held by Arriva is perhaps something the city needs.