Merseyrail

[dk1]

Now done Grand National day at Aintree for the last 14 years. Merseyrail & its excellent staff have always ensured the thousands of punters have an excellent day. Ok the trains are not the most up to date but revenue protection & cleanliness is always first rate.

 

[Green Lane]

Have to say as a passenger I've overall been happy with Merseyrail over the last few years.

From a Wirral perspective, I remember back when you had to change at Rock Ferry to go to Chester and before Conway Park existed. So undoubtedly, things have improved since then, due to the expansion of the network.

On a day-to-day basis I travel to Liverpool on the bus though for the simple reason, living more or less equidistant in between four of the Birkenhead stations (They are all just under a mile away in different directions), yet I have a bus-stop literally at the bottom of the street. So, the bus gets me into work typically fifteen minutes quicker than the train would if walking to the station.

However, I travel on Merseyrail quite frequently during the weekends/holidays and I have to say that even during weekdays it's great just to be able to jump on the train for example if the road tunnels are disrupted or like back in January, all the buses were off due to icy roads but Merseyrail still got me to work.

Two things that would improve Merseyrail for me would be extension of the system onto the Borderlands Line with a new station adjacent to the M53/A552 Woodchurch interchange. (I believe this was proposed at some point).

Second very minor issue is the seating arrangement on trains. Very often when travelling alone, you get three other people who all know each other crowding around you in the 4-seat facing arrangement. Would be nice to have some 2-seat sections which all face the same way for passengers travelling in ones and twos (e.g. like on the Borderlands line etc..) so you don't end up in the middle of some group of strangers conversations, but certainly it's a minor issue! EDIT: although I know there are some single "sideways" fold-down seats in some carriages.

Also, the only time I had a bad experience on Merseyrail was due to overcrowding during the (ever growing) Matthew Street festival. Crammed in like sardines. For a few minutes I had that much pressure on my chest couldn't really breath fully, but luckily I was only going a few stops. Not the fault of Merseyrail though, just too many people squeezing into the trains with not quite enough space to fit them in. Normally it is nowhere near that crowded of course. Although Southport is always pretty busy in the summer as everyone knows.

 

[nedchester]

As far as I remember, the bins on the underground were taken out of action after the Warrington bombings, I don't suppose there has been a good enough reason to re-instate them.

and the bins were put back in the same place in Warrington town centre so why not on Merseyrail or any other TOCs stations??? So there is a reason to put them back as people wish to dispose of their litter.

The bin thing is something that really bugs me.

(I do notice that at my local station, Capenhurst, there are bins of the see through variety)

 

[First class]

Southport to Kirkby is certainly valid via Liverpool Central as part of the Liverpool Group. I think a lot of people would prefer waiting at Central to Sandhills at night.

I'm very glad you've said that. When I last checked, (the old NRES), it used to come up "More than one ticket is needed to complete this journey". When it was checked on the now replaced RJIS, it would not allow a £4.15 SDS to be issued for travel via Liverpool Central.

I've not checked using the 'journey planner' application, but I certainly will check it, and will raise it as an issue with the Product & Pricing Manager if it fails.

Am I correct, however, that the group station rule is for interchange only, and therefore a Kirkby-Southport ticket would not be valid to leave the station at Liverpool Central?

The stations listed at the bottom of this page are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group."

Therefore if somebody wanted to break their journey at Liverpool Central, they are liable for an excess fare for the journey between Sandhills and Liverpool Stns? Right? They do not have a valid ticket to return back through the barriers...

The problem is that most people think that they can go into town from Ormskirk/Kirkby etc, and later go on to Southport line stations... Now, if my interpretation is correct, you cannot do this.

 

[tony_mac]

I think this is getting a bit off-topic for this forum, but anyway.....

the group station rule is for interchange only

As far as I know, there is no clarification of what that means anywhere.

I would interpret it as being unclear - the NRCOC says that if there is a break of journey restriction then the train company 'will make this clear in their notices and other publications'.

The routeing guide (in Section F) also says that, where there is a common routeing point, you can take direct trains to and from the 'routeing point'. This would probably mean that direct trains to and from Central are allowed anyway, hence the group station rule isn't actually needed as such.

 

[yorkie]

They are allowed to use station facilities no matter what, so you can't stop them going through the barriers. I'm not sure what counts as within station premises at Liverpool Central though as it seems to open out into a shopping centre? Is the whole shopping centre part of the station?

In any case the part you put in bold is actually explaining why the text that follows applies. It's saying that if you are going to/from a member of the group then it doesn't apply (e.g. York to Hitchin isn't valid via Stevenage unless there is an easement, but York to Letchworth is valid via Stevenage). The bit in bold is surely just explaining why it applies. It does not say you cannot break your journey, does it?

 

[Polarbear]

Personally, I would like to see some attempt made at limited stop and/or express services on the longer runs on Merseyrail.

I used to commute from Bache to Bootle New Strand using Merseyrail, but at just over 1 hour for a journey that is around 20 miles long, it's not exactly quick! I acknowledge that in most cases, that includes 15min interchange at Moorfields, but even so, the average speed over the longer journeys is slow.

In the south of England, journeys of around 20(ish) miles between two large towns/cities would typically have a semi-fast or express service as well as the all stations service.

My suggestion would be to provide between 1 and 2 semi fast services per hour from Liverpool to both Chester and Southport. I doubt if this could be achieved without putting in some additional infrastructure (and therefore at some cost), but given the relatively slow road links between Liverpool and both Chester & Southport, I expect such investment would bring increased patronage.

I would also like to see the system expanded;

Kirkby - Skelmersdale (Northern to run Skelmersdale - Wigan)
Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge
Hunts Cross - Warrington
Bidston - Wrexham (and possibly a branch from Hope to Mold using the former Chester - Mold line)

 

[ukrob]

My suggestion would be to provide between 1 and 2 semi fast services per hour from Liverpool to both Chester and Southport. I doubt if this could be achieved without putting in some additional infrastructure (and therefore at some cost), but given the relatively slow road links between Liverpool and both Chester & Southport, I expect such investment would bring increased patronage.

And therein lies the problem. You can't spend tens of millions of pounds on infrastructure for one or two express services per hour on routes which are already quicker than car.

 

[Green Lane]

Personally, I would like to see some attempt made at limited stop and/or express services on the longer runs on Merseyrail.

Yes, I also had similar thoughts. Shame the Chester & Birkenhead railway is no longer quadruple tracked as it quite clearly used to be!

I would also like to see the system expanded;

Kirkby - Skelmersdale (Northern to run Skelmersdale - Wigan)

I think I read somewhere about this proposal and some controversy about the suggested location of the station.

Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge

Personally I prefer this route to Preston rather than going via Lime Street/Wigan NW, despite the low frequency of the Ormskirk branch services. Certainly is the more geographically direct route. On an unrelated note, I noticed the track has been singled for much of it between Burscough and the junction with the WCML.

Bidston - Wrexham (and possibly a branch from Hope to Mold using the former Chester - Mold line)

Would be nice I admit. I go to Mold quite a bit also onto to Loggerheads/Moel Famau etc for hiking... Personally I alight at Buckley and walk the almost four miles to Mold town centre (and back again), but can imagine for people who aren't regular hikers, it's not exactly convenient. I notice there are buses to Chester, but naturally I prefer rail where available, always notice the site of the former Mold railway station when walking past it. Have to confess I wish it was still there!

 

[tony_mac]

And therein lies the problem. You can't spend tens of millions of pounds on infrastructure for one or two express services per hour on routes which are already quicker than car.

Couldn't a limited-stop service be done without new infrastructure?

Either Southport or Chester to Liverpool Central is about 45 minutes and 15 stops; could that be brought down to more like 30 minutes?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interesting idea - certainly it can be a bit frustrating going to anywhere near the end of one of the longer routes. Where would the loops need to be located to allow these faster trains to overtake the all stations services?

 

[tony_mac]

I wonder if they could send out the fast just in front of the slow train, it's then got 15 minutes clear in front of it to catch up. (at least until Hamilton Square / Sandhills).

 

[ukrob]

I wonder if they could send out the fast just in front of the slow train, it's then got 15 minutes clear in front of it to catch up. (at least until Hamilton Square / Sandhills).

It isn't that simple really though is it.

You are making an assumption of it being non-stop. Do you think there is enough patronage for that? It hasn't got 15 minutes in front of it either - what about Ellesmere Port trains - they don't vanish. Once it completes the loop it is still stuck behind a fast service unless the slow service becomes the fast and so on.

It is nowhere near as easy as is being made out.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't think anyone was suggesting it is easy or even possible, just asking hypothetical questions.
I really don't expect that the reason they have never done it just because someone didn't put the 5 minutes of thought into it that I did!

Anyway, I would have thought there were two or three fairly obvious stops for a semi-fast service; they manage it between Liverpool and Wigan or Manchester, but they obviously don't have the same frequencies.

Aren't the Ellesmere Port trains always 15 minutes ahead of the Chester trains anyway?

 

[ukrob]

Aren't the Ellesmere Port trains always 15 minutes ahead of the Chester trains anyway?

Yes. As I usually use the Northern Line I always forget that the Wirral Line doesn't have 15 minute frequencies to each destination .

 

[First class]

If the Chester increase does go ahead, 2tph will NOT call at Capenhurst or Bache. That may reduce the journey around ~5mins.

The reason for that is generally to increase reliability and give a longer turn around at Chester.

 

[northwichcat]

If the Chester increase does go ahead, 2tph will NOT call at Capenhurst or Bache. That may reduce the journey around ~5mins.

The reason for that is generally to increase reliability and give a longer turn around at Chester.

The original plan was the stopping patterns for Chester at 4tph (in the Draft RUS) would alternate between:

Chester, Hooton, then all stops to Liverpool
and
Chester, Bache, Capenhurst, Hooton, Birkenhead Central, Hamilton Square, Liverpool STNS

But the final RUS suggested it would provide an inconsistently timed service and wasn't to be taken forward.

 

[Skie]

During peak they could really do with sorting out the overcrowding on the Northern Line. The extra trains every 7 minutes dosent seem to help.

Have alternating stations Labelled A + B, With major stations classed as both. Then each train during peak stops at either A or B stations. Makes the journey marginally faster for those travelling to the popular stations or extremes, would ease overcrowding and wouldnt affect headways.

Would have a few days of chaos as people got used to it, and people wanting to go from an A to a B would be inconvenienced by having to use an interchange during peak, but it would help with overcrowding very quickly. Cheap too, just needs a lot of stickers with A or B on them plastered all over stations and plenty of on-board announcements from the annoying automated woman.

 

[Multiple Unit]

Merseyrail is one of the best TOC majority of staff exerlent Rolling Stock well theesedays its more of a trip back in time though refurbishment was ok at the time they still show there age do those 507/8s and a great reminder of BR Days.

But yet I do find MRE quite Old Fasioned and syuck in there ways a bit mostly to do with changing time tables and frequencies as there is a gap probably to give the Southport line a ten minute service though probabkly as far as Liverpool CTl which is most needed.

 

[ukrob]

During peak they could really do with sorting out the overcrowding on the Northern Line. The extra trains every 7 minutes dosent seem to help.

Have alternating stations Labelled A + B, With major stations classed as both. Then each train during peak stops at either A or B stations. Makes the journey marginally faster for those travelling to the popular stations or extremes, would ease overcrowding and wouldnt affect headways.

Would have a few days of chaos as people got used to it, and people wanting to go from an A to a B would be inconvenienced by having to use an interchange during peak, but it would help with overcrowding very quickly. Cheap too, just needs a lot of stickers with A or B on them plastered all over stations and plenty of on-board announcements from the annoying automated woman.

I have no idea how that would help overcrowding?

All you are doing is reducing the frequency to each station by half without any extra services, whilst also inconveniencing people making local trips!

 

[Skie]

I have no idea how that would help overcrowding?

All you are doing is reducing the frequency to each station by half without any extra services, whilst also inconveniencing people making local trips!

During peak there are more services run, so it would just half that, meaning the timings would be the same as normal service if you arent going from one of the major stations.

And your splitting up the number of people on each train. All of the people heading into town of a morning would normally pile onto the first train to arrive, which means further down the line its packed and uncomfortable for those who manage to squeeze on (and those who were on before).

If the train alternated between stops, they would only arrive half(ish!) as full further down the line. Yes less frequently than normal peak, but also less crowded.

It would certainly be an interesting experiment!

 

[ukrob]

During peak there are more services run, so it would just half that, meaning the timings would be the same as normal service if you arent going from one of the major stations.

And your splitting up the number of people on each train. All of the people heading into town of a morning would normally pile onto the first train to arrive, which means further down the line its packed and uncomfortable for those who manage to squeeze on (and those who were on before).

If the train alternated between stops, they would only arrive half(ish!) as full further down the line. Yes less frequently than normal peak, but also less crowded.

It would certainly be an interesting experiment!

Well you didn't say that!

But you haven't thought about the evening rush hour - which would result in dangerous over-crowding on platforms as people have to wait longer for a service.

But to be honest people don't realise how lucky they are on the Northern Line. They should try not being able to get on a 2 car service into Lime Street in the morning peak. I have never once seen people left behind on the Northern Line apart from in times of severe disruption.

 

[tbtc]

Merseyrail is one of the best TOC majority of staff exerlent Rolling Stock well theesedays its more of a trip back in time though refurbishment was ok at the time they still show there age do those 507/8s and a great reminder of BR Days

Merseyrail are an example that doing the basics well counts for a lot more than some flash short term ideas.

They've (under BR/ MTL/ Arriva etc) never changed things radically, never got new trains, never tried anything "ambitious" (like Operation Princess etc), just stuck to doing things simply and well.

I know we like to get excited about top speeds, free wifi, the quality of biscuits in First Class (one of NXEC's major failings, apparently!), shiny new trains etc. However, Merseyrail have concentrated on the things that most passengers have as priority and done them well. Would be good if certain other operators could learn from them

 

[First class]

The MD of C2C came to have a look at Merseyrail yesterday afternoon. C2C are probably the closest to us in terms of network type, uniform rolling stock, frequency, performance etc...

Although many get annoyed at Merseyrail at times (including the staff), it does show that other TOCs are keen to learn a few things from their "way of operation".

 

[CarterUSM]

No, it shows one TOC who is interested in the operation. I work with a few folk that used to be with merseyrail, albeit a few years ago, and to be fair, i've only heard good from them, which surprised me, as I usually hear of low morale and disgruntled workforce from other TOC staff.

 

[trainophile]

I've often wondered why Merseyrail services (at least the ones I use, Northern Line and Moorfields to Chester) always have either three or six carriages. Sometimes three is not enough, and sometimes six are almost empty. I expect there is a good reason why they can't have four at certain times of day, e.g. when the schools come out.

Also, I realise it ain't going to happen, but there are no toilets on these services. I suppose the reasoning is that no journey is longer than around an hour, but sometimes it would be handy, especially when coming from Southport and catching a connection to Chester at Moorfields, with a 12 minute wait so not long enough to use the surface toilets. Means effectively having to go two hours between Southport station and Chester station.

I noticed recently that there are out-of-service toilets on the underground level at Moorfields. I wonder if these are going to be brought back into use.

Also some stations don't have toilets, not even "on request" ones. Not good if you have a long walk home after getting off the train!

Finally, some stations are much better supplied with platform seating than others. e.g. Formby - on the north side there is just one row of three platform seats, whereas at Birkdale there are at least four rows, but no covered waiting area. The covered waiting at Formby consists of two separate rooms, each with (I think) six seats in. There is room for double that amount of seats inside, and in bad weather at peak times I'd think that would be welcomed. In hot weather these rooms are stuffy so it would be good to have extra platform seating.

It is annoying at Southport station to have to queue in the little shop to buy a Day Saver ticket, as although the staff are always helpful there is often a queue of people with complicated queries, so you have to allow an extra 10 minutes if you need a ticket that can't be purchased from the machine.

Hope it's okay resurrecting this thread. It made interesting reading.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I've often wondered why Merseyrail services (at least the ones I use, Northern Line and Moorfields to Chester) always have either three or six carriages. Sometimes three is not enough, and sometimes six are almost empty. I expect there is a good reason why they can't have four at certain times of day, e.g. when the schools come out.

Also, I realise it ain't going to happen, but there are no toilets on these services. I suppose the reasoning is that no journey is longer than around an hour, but sometimes it would be handy, especially when coming from Southport and catching a connection to Chester at Moorfields, with a 12 minute wait so not long enough to use the surface toilets. Means effectively having to go two hours between Southport station and Chester station.

I noticed recently that there are out-of-service toilets on the underground level at Moorfields. I wonder if these are going to be brought back into use.

Also some stations don't have toilets, not even "on request" ones. Not good if you have a long walk home after getting off the train!

Finally, some stations are much better supplied with platform seating than others. e.g. Formby - on the north side there is just one row of three platform seats, whereas at Birkdale there are at least four rows, but no covered waiting area. The covered waiting at Formby consists of two separate rooms, each with (I think) six seats in. There is room for double that amount of seats inside, and in bad weather at peak times I'd think that would be welcomed. In hot weather these rooms are stuffy so it would be good to have extra platform seating.

It is annoying at Southport station to have to queue in the little shop to buy a Day Saver ticket, as although the staff are always helpful there is often a queue of people with complicated queries, so you have to allow an extra 10 minutes if you need a ticket that can't be purchased from the machine.

Hope it's okay resurrecting this thread. It made interesting reading.

Because the trains are 3 cars long.

If they didn't come in 3s or 6s, it'd mean using a very large saw and hacking bits of each train in half, going on whatever duty you have in mind for them, then being super glued back together to be a 6 car again for the rush hour

 

[trainophile]

Oh, that's me told then . I thought the carriages were coupled together individually.

Sometimes when I get back to Southport late afternoon, the PA system is telling people not to board the train that just arrived until it has been coupled (sorry might be wrong word), then there's a clunk and it makes the three carriage train into a six carriage one, ready for the evening rush hour. So I assumed (wrongly) that they could have any number of carriages hitched together.

Or maybe that's not what they are doing at all. I admit I don't have a working knowledge of these things. Thanks for replying.

 

[First class]

A 6-car unit is simply 2 x 3-car units coupled together.

3-car unit is: A-T-B
6-car unit is: A-T-B-A-T-B

"A" and "B" have a driving cab in them (and motors underneath), the "T" is a trailer and has nothing but batteries underneath.

It is worth remembering that the 508s were originally 4-car units.

 

[daikilo]

Why? are the Merseyrail stations capable of e.g. 8-car? Can the 4th cars be recovered?