Old Yard Dog
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Heaven help free speech if "OAP" is now deemed offensive
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Merseyrail Tap & Go
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Perhaps not exactly offensive, but I haven't heard older people described as OAPs for about 50 years. In fact I remember writing an essay about old people in about 1965 when at primary school and being told to refer to "senior citizens" instead. Needless to say I am now both an OAP <and> a senior citizen!
JBuchananGB
Established Member
It is relevant that no Railcards can be applied to Tap & Go. The Liverpool City Region cannot be entirely devoid of holders of 16-25, 26-30, Two Together, Senior and many other types of Railcard. These railcards do not afford any discounts on Daysavers or Saveaways, and likewise cannot be linked to the Tap & Go system. I am sure that there are journeys where applying a Railcard discount to an available fare for a journey will undercut the Daysaver and the Tap & Go.
Incidentally an OAP is a subset of "senior citizen". Merseytravel indeed provide free passes on buses trains and ferries to their residents aged 60 or over (senior citizens), but these passes only upgrade to an English National Concessionary Travel pass when the holder reaches state pension age, and therefore can be described as an Old Age Pensioner.
Incidentally an OAP is a subset of "senior citizen". Merseytravel indeed provide free passes on buses trains and ferries to their residents aged 60 or over (senior citizens), but these passes only upgrade to an English National Concessionary Travel pass when the holder reaches state pension age, and therefore can be described as an Old Age Pensioner.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because the Anytime Day Single fares are quite high (even Anytime fares aren't single fare priced on Merseyrail) most longer off-peak return journeys (i.e. to Liverpool from the outer reaches) will cap out on the Daysaver price which as you say doesn't attract a Railcard discount and never has*. Whereas for peak-time travel Railcards are in most cases (though not quite all) not relevant. So the number impacted by this is low and those people can continue to use booking offices and TVMs. To be fair this is no different from contactless in the South East where it offers something for the majority, but those with Railcards can just choose the most financially expedient option.
* I don't like this to be honest even though I'm not eligible for a Railcard that would discount those. However it isn't unusual for PTE products not to carry Railcard discounts, and so the Daysaver is just following the Saveaway in this.
Old Yard Dog
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The only Merseyrail-only fares from my station, Little Sutton, are anytime singles / returns or day savers. The 33% discount on the former gives a very decent saving on anytime return fares to Chester (3.80 v 5.75) and a reasonable saving on anytime return fares to Liverpool vs the day saver (5.05 v 6.40).
RichardAsh1981
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Am I missing something? The Tap & Go fares are described on the Merseyrail website as being the cheapest, but then reference the Day Saver prices. These are regularly more than the return ticket pricing for the same journey if you cross a zone boundary, and say nothing about what you pay for peak time travel.
Case 1: Bromborough to Port Sunlight and return, off peak. The off peak return for this journey is £3.30 from the booking office. To do this on a Day Saver I would need an Area B ticket and pay £4.80.
If this is the only journey I make in a day, do I only pay £3.30? Or does the system start from the £3.10 single fare?
Case 2: Bromborough to Capenhurst and return, out in the morning peak. The Anytime Return is £4.75 for this journey, the Day Saver (off peak) is £6.40 because the journey spans zones B2 and G1. Hopefully Tap & Go charges the Anytime Return price?
The cheapest way to do both journeys in one day (although stretching the break of journey rules) is actually an Anytime Return Port Sunlight to Capenhurst, which is £5.20. I don't expect Tap & Go to figure that out!
Case 1: Bromborough to Port Sunlight and return, off peak. The off peak return for this journey is £3.30 from the booking office. To do this on a Day Saver I would need an Area B ticket and pay £4.80.
If this is the only journey I make in a day, do I only pay £3.30? Or does the system start from the £3.10 single fare?
Case 2: Bromborough to Capenhurst and return, out in the morning peak. The Anytime Return is £4.75 for this journey, the Day Saver (off peak) is £6.40 because the journey spans zones B2 and G1. Hopefully Tap & Go charges the Anytime Return price?
The cheapest way to do both journeys in one day (although stretching the break of journey rules) is actually an Anytime Return Port Sunlight to Capenhurst, which is £5.20. I don't expect Tap & Go to figure that out!
JBuchananGB
Established Member
In your examples of course, you could also apply railcard discount if you have a railcard. Then £3.30 become £2.15 in case 1, and £4.75 becomes £3.15 in case 2. Much better than Daysaver or Tap & Go.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would be very surprised if it didn't apply the Anytime Day Return fares where they are relevant (though I wouldn't expect it to know about break of journey, though GTR's system allegedly does). As otherwise peak return journeys would be very expensive indeed, as Merseyrail is not single fare priced, even Anytime Day Return fares are a fair bit less than two singles.
Merseyrail does not offer any Off Peak point to point fares for journeys entirely within their network.
Merseyrail does not offer any Off Peak point to point fares for journeys entirely within their network.
Haywain
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GTR's system for KeyGo definitely knows about break of journey.
gray1404
Established Member
Tap and go does apply the cheapest ticket, be that an Anytime Single, Anytime Day Return or Day Saver. It is not limited to. Day Savers and I believe it will also cap it at the cost of a weekly Rail Pass when suitable based on a Monday to Sunday week.
It would be interesting to see how it copes with a break of journey. I suspect it would treat this has separate single journeys and then cap at the cost of a day saver as this will likely be cheaper.
It would be interesting to see how it copes with a break of journey. I suspect it would treat this has separate single journeys and then cap at the cost of a day saver as this will likely be cheaper.
RichardAsh1981
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At some point I shall probably try it for the convenience. I am suspicious ever since finding out that the zonal weekly RailPass between Bromborough and Capenhurst is more than 5 x Anytime Returns! £4.75 x 5 = £23.75 where as the weekly RailPass is £24.60.
The National Rail weekly season ticket is £21.40, much better value and credit to the ticket office staff for selling it to me! Unfortunately there is no flex season so it only makes sense if I know in advance I will be in the office 5 days on the trot.
The National Rail weekly season ticket is £21.40, much better value and credit to the ticket office staff for selling it to me! Unfortunately there is no flex season so it only makes sense if I know in advance I will be in the office 5 days on the trot.
JBuchananGB
Established Member
They do however offer Off Peak point to point fares to/from stations just off their network, such as Meols Cop and Halewood, which permit break of journey, and allow railcard discounts, which may be suitable for people who don't need the flexibility of a Daysaver.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed, but as these fares are outside their network they are not applicable to Tap and Go. Thus if you want them you will need to buy them on paper.
WirralLine
Member
Seems to be working well for my daughter at the moment between Eastham Rake and Overpool, however shes not tried the journey the other way round yet (usually getting dropped off instead) so unsure if the validator on the Liverpool bound platform at Eastham Rake is behaving yet. Last time we tried it gave us both incomplete journeys when we tapped out despite getting a green tick.
although a Saveaway may well be a better option once non Merseyrail trains are involved
RichardAsh1981
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At some point I shall probably try it for the convenience. I am suspicious ever since finding out that the zonal weekly RailPass between Bromborough and Capenhurst is more than 5 x Anytime Returns! £4.75 x 5 = £23.75 where as the weekly RailPass is £24.60.
The National Rail weekly season ticket is £21.40, much better value and credit to the ticket office staff for selling it to me! Unfortunately there is no flex season so it only makes sense if I know in advance I will be in the office 5 days on the trot.
The National Rail weekly season ticket is £21.40, much better value and credit to the ticket office staff for selling it to me! Unfortunately there is no flex season so it only makes sense if I know in advance I will be in the office 5 days on the trot.
JBuchananGB
Established Member
unless you want to use a railcard.
Still might be cheaper. £6.50 is the figure to beat or £3.25 for under 19s (no railcard needed)
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JBuchananGB
Established Member
Trust me, with a Railcard you can cut £2.35 off the Saveaway fare by buying Off-Peak day returns. I have just renewed my Senior Railcard free with Tesco vouchers, but even if I'd paid £35 it would only need about 15 round trips to Liverpool to make the money back.
stuart100100
Member
I tapped in yesterday around 6.20am to 6.25am for a train departing in the peak at 6.30am, returned in the afternoon and have been charged for a daysaver rather than an anytime return, so it didn't pick up my next available train was in the peak.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Presumably like Oval it will be based on tap in time. Basing it on train departure times is too complex.
A pilot scheme for the contactless iteration of Tap & Go has been launched today.
www.merseyrail.org
Register your interest for the Tap & Go Pilot
Take part in the Tap & Go pilot and help transform how people pay for rail travel on the Merseyrail network.
www.merseyrail.org
I was part of the trial (as a member of the public) for the introduction of Octopus in Hong Kong in the late 1990s.A pilot scheme for the contactless iteration of Tap & Go has been launched today.
Register your interest for the Tap & Go Pilot
Take part in the Tap & Go pilot and help transform how people pay for rail travel on the Merseyrail network.
I got 20% off all fares during the trial - I wonder if there will be a similar incentive?
WirralLine
Member
Just noticed after spending however many £1000s installing the tap and go validators some years ago, and the system only being used for a few months, theyre replacing all the tap and go readers with new ones!
Merseyrail had big issues with Init (the previous supplier of PVALs) to the extent that, as you say, they're having to be replaced
WirralLine
Member
That makes sense. I believe the new ones are VIX.
Yes, Vix is very much the norm for anywhere outside of TfL land.
Their ATGs are also now Vix
The potential lack of break of journey is what is putting me off using this, as otherwise it would be a great improvement over queueing up in the morning peak to buy tickets.
I sometimes stop in the city centre on my way back from work between two merseyrail stations (& sometimes use the shops in Liverpool Central on my way to work), currently my paper tickets always work the barriers at all Liverpool stations. Paying for multiple singles would be a large premium over the day return (especially since I have a Railcard that could be applied to all these extra journeys if I was not travelling out in the peak).
Has anyone tested this to get a definitive answer either way?
Sounds like you would be the ideal person to test this!
I was just coming here to post a positive experience with break of journey.
Yesterday I went into Liverpool in the morning peak and got off at Moorfields to collect some kit from the office to take to a meeting. Because it was pouring down I decided to take the train to Central where the meeting was. Then after the meeting I went directly home from Central (after a pint of course).
This morning I’ve been charged for an Anytime return. Was half expecting it to treat the Moorfields to Central journey separately and not get the concept of a break of journey, so I’m pleasantly surprised.