Merseyrail station car park 'offence'

[jymford]

I'm due in court in March for a parking 'offence' in a Merseyrail station carpark and I would appreciate your comments on the following and if you know of any similar cases.

I have pleaded not guilty because "An entrance sign must be displayed and maintained at the entrance to controlled land to inform drivers as appropriate whether parking is permitted subject to terms and conditions. No overnight parking signage was displayed at the entrance to the car park, as required by the Private Parking Code of Practice ("An entranc esign must be displayed and maintained at the entrance to controlled land to inform drivers as appropriate whether parking is permitted subject to terms and conditions, including payment, or is prohibited". Also, the 2 signs were inadequate due to the font size and location at the opposite end of the car park to the pedestrian entrance. The location of the only 2 signs in the car park was as far as possible from the entrance of the car park on the permitter fence. The pedestrian entrance is located at the opposite end of where the only 2 signs were displayed. The nearest sign to the parked car was the width of 18 car parking spaces (spaces are obviously wider than vehicles) from where the vehicle was parked by the entrance – this was measured as 47 metres. A diagram was sent to Merseyrail to show the vehicle entrance to the car park, the direction of travel to park the car, and the route taken on foot to the pedestrian exit. The location of the nearest sign was 47 metres from the parking space (furthest away from the vehicle entrance and the pedestrian exit). The lowercase font size on the sign was only 38 millimetres in height. The legal number plate reading distance is 20 metres. The legal number plate letter height is 79 mm. The legal text size of 79 millimetres at 20 metres versus the parking sign's 38 millimetres at 47 metres is incomparable. The sign can not be seen because it was not positioned in a suitable location to make users aware of the restrictions. I did request for Merseyrail to position their sign 47 metres away and assess its suitability – Merseyrail did not comment. To support that the signage was inadequate and can not be seen, the following was supplied to Merseyrail: Video evidence, Photographic evidence, A map of the car park layout and the position of the signage 47 metres from the car park space (furthest away from the entrance and the pedestrian entrance/exit). Signage font size of 38 millimetres in height. The legal number plate reading distance and number plate height".

 

[Haywain]

I'm due in court in March for a parking 'offence' in a Merseyrail station carpark and I would appreciate your comments on the following and if you know of any similar cases.

What offence have you been charged with? Your 'defence' is meaningless to us without that crucial bit of information, and railway land can be subject to completely different legislation to other private car parks.

 

[jymford]

"Place/leave vehicle/bicycle/conveyance in a manner to cause obstruction contrary to byelaws 14(2) and 24(1) of the Merseyrail Railway Byelaws 2014", relating to a "parking penalty notice" received at 02:10 on 02/09/23 when overnight parking is not permitted.

 

[ainsworth74]

Were you driving the car in question?

 

[jymford]

What offence have you been charged with? Your 'defence' is meaningless to us without that crucial bit of information, and railway land can be subject to completely different legislation to other private car parks.

"Place/leave vehicle/bicycle/conveyance in a manner to cause obstruction contrary to byelaws 14(2) and 24(1) of the Merseyrail Railway Byelaws 2014", relating to a "parking penalty notice" received at 02:10 on 02/09/23 when overnight parking is not permitted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

Were you driving the car in question?

Yes, I was the driver. I parked the car and you can see the direction of travel of the car to the parking space, and the direction of travel on foot to the station in the diagram. Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Please upload all the correspondence with your name redacted that’s transpired prior to this. This is a very late stage to be asking for help, and you have not fully apprised yourself of the fact you are being charged with a criminal offence, not a civil parking matter. Going on about private parking codes of practice is not in itself a defence to the crime.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, I was the driver. I parked the car and you can see the direction of travel of the car to the parking space, and the direction of travel on foot to the station in the diagram. Thanks

Forgive me as this is not an area I'm expert on but then how does that work with your visual impairment mentioned in this thread which suggest your vision is so poor you couldn't be measured?

6th September 2023 I provided evidence of my visual impairment to Merseyrail. “CF” means can count fingers at a specified distance, and this is used to describe vision that is too reduced to identify any letters on a chart and therefore cannot be measured as a fraction.

 

[jymford]

Forgive me as this is not an area I'm expert on but then how does that work with your visual impairment mentioned in this thread which suggest your vision is so poor you couldn't be measured?

I have extreme hyperopia that can be reduced to a reasonable level with very thick and heavy spectacles. The magnification of the eyes is so severe that I only wear them when absolutely necessary.

 

[SargeNpton]

Which station was this?

 

[jymford]

Which station was this?

Bache, Chester.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have extreme hyperopia that can be reduced to a reasonable level with very thick and heavy spectacles. The magnification of the eyes is so severe that I only wear them when absolutely necessary.

Fair doos, thanks for explaining

 

[Sultan]

I have extreme hyperopia that can be reduced to a reasonable level with very thick and heavy spectacles. The magnification of the eyes is so severe that I only wear them when absolutely necessary.

Thank-you. I've learned something today. I didn't know that it was possible to be able to drive (with corrective spectacles) whilst also being unable to use computer screens due to a non-correctable sight issue.
I'm sure that I'm not the only one who initially questioned how you could be driving a vehicle yet unable to purchase a train ticket from a machine. But that was only because someone referenced the other thread (that led me to here).

 

[AlterEgo]

"Place/leave vehicle/bicycle/conveyance in a manner to cause obstruction contrary to byelaws 14(2) and 24(1) of the Merseyrail Railway Byelaws 2014", relating to a "parking penalty notice" received at 02:10 on 02/09/23 when overnight parking is not permitted.

It seems to me that the arguments around your eyesight and parking codes of practice cannot be a defence to this strict liability matter. They miss the point.

Rather, you should be arguing that you did not, in fact, cause any obstruction. What obstruction do they say you caused? You were parked in the car park in a space. What then?

 

[jymford]

Thank-you. I've learned something today. I didn't know that it was possible to be able to drive (with corrective spectacles) whilst also being unable to use computer screens due to a non-correctable sight issue.
I'm sure that I'm not the only one who initially questioned how you could be driving a vehicle yet unable to purchase a train ticket from a machine. But that was only because someone referenced the other thread (that led me Without wearing lenses I'm only familair with shape, colour and movement of objects. Some extreme sight issues can be corrected to the 'legal driving standard' with extreme lenses.

It seems to me that the arguments around your eyesight and parking codes of practice cannot be a defence to this strict liability matter. They miss the point.

Rather, you should be arguing that you did not, in fact, cause any obstruction. What obstruction do they say you caused? You were parked in the car park in a space. What then?

The 2 court cases are being dealt with on 2 separate dates completely separate issues

It seems to me that the arguments around your eyesight and parking codes of practice cannot be a defence to this strict liability matter. They miss the point.

Rather, you should be arguing that you did not, in fact, cause any obstruction. What obstruction do they say you caused? You were parked in the car park in a space. What then?

The offence is overnight parking is not permitted in any Merseyrail station car park.

 

[AlterEgo]

The offence is overnight parking is not permitted in any Merseyrail station car park.

That is not the offence they are charging you with. You tell us they have charged you with:

"Place/leave vehicle/bicycle/conveyance in a manner to cause obstruction contrary to byelaws 14(2) and 24(1) of the Merseyrail Railway Byelaws 2014"

What obstruction?

 

[Bertie the bus]

14.2 is causing an obstruction or

otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of the Operator or an authorised person.

 

[AlterEgo]

14.2 is causing an obstruction or

Thanks.

I am still unsure what, if any, defences the OP has to this strict liability matter. This is not a civil parking issue where you can just quote codes of practice and have an appeal overturned.

The OP is best advised to upload ALL correspondence to the thread with their name redacted so we can see exactly what has gone on.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I wonder what classes as an ‘instruction’ in this circumstance? A barely visible sign doesn’t seem enough. Is this not intended to cover an authorised person telling you not to leave your car somewhere.

 

[Fokx]

Whilst this won’t be helpful in your dispute, information on parking at all Merseyrail stations can be found on Merseyrail’s website

Car

Find out how you can access our Merseyrail train stations by car

www.merseyrail.org

(It does state that overnight parking is not available at ANY Merseyrail station towards the bottom of the page)

Additionally this is shown on National Rail Enquires below for Bache who state that parking is only available between the exact times of 0548 until 0047 Monday to Saturday and 0748 until 0037 on Sundays

Bache Station | National Rail

Discover Bache railway station. Getting to & from, buying & collecting train tickets, staffing, facilities, accessibility, & mobility access.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

If you drive to more than one station, the National Rail Enquiries website is extremely helpful when it comes to breaking down T&C’s of the parking sites and I’d personally recommend it!

 

[ikcdab]

It is common (certainly it isn't uncommon) for car parks to prohibit overnight parking. If I was going to leave my car overnight, I would try and find out what the rules were beforehand. Seems to me that the OP didn't do this and got caught and is now trying to get out of it on a technicality. I can only assume that the OP has really upset Merseyrail for this to end up on court.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If I understand the OP’s defence correctly it is utterly bizarre. They parked their car as far away from the sign as humanly possible and then claim they couldn’t read it from where they parked because the lettering wasn’t as large as the legal minimum for a car’s number plate, despite the fact they had to walk past the sign when going to the station.

Although you can’t go into the car park on Google Street View you can get to the perimeter and there are clearly numerous signs dotted around the car park but it isn’t possible to zoom in enough to read the text. Knowing what is displayed on these signs could be useful.

If a defence is to be mounted then concentrating on the signage is probably the way to go but it would need to be a coherent defence and not just some irrelevant ramble about the minimum size of lettering on car number plates.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can only assume that the OP has really upset Merseyrail for this to end up on court.

They have an unrelated case about an alleged unpaid fare/bylaw matter also ongoing, which is an unusual mix of cases - and court dates for both. Only once they have a summons and entered a plea do they feel they need advice, which is an unwise way to approach things to say the least.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They have an unrelated case about an alleged unpaid fare/bylaw matter also ongoing, which is an unusual mix of cases - and court dates for both. Only once they have a summons and entered a plea do they feel they need advice, which is an unwise way to approach things to say the least.

And they have shared any official paperwork for either case!

The crux of their defence in both cases is that they are partially sighted. But I think that could be a difficult defence

 

[Titfield]

If I understand the OP’s defence correctly it is utterly bizarre. They parked their car as far away from the sign as humanly possible and then claim they couldn’t read it from where they parked because the lettering wasn’t as large as the legal minimum for a car’s number plate, despite the fact they had to walk past the sign when going to the station.

Although you can’t go into the car park on Google Street View you can get to the perimeter and there are clearly numerous signs dotted around the car park but it isn’t possible to zoom in enough to read the text. Knowing what is displayed on these signs could be useful.

If a defence is to be mounted then concentrating on the signage is probably the way to go but it would need to be a coherent defence and not just some irrelevant ramble about the minimum size of lettering on car number plates.

IMHO the OP needs to think very clearly about how they would present their case in court so that it is easily understood by the court.

To me this would be using a diagram (not a google image) showing the car park layout, the route the car took on entering the car park to where it was parked. The route the OP took on leaving the car on foot. If the OP walked to a ticket machine and / or signs the route they took.

I would indicate the location of all signage and then provide images of the signs.

I think the problem facing the OP is that one would expect a reasonable person to check the signage on entering the car park (or immediately thereafter) and act appropriately.

AFAIK all the car parks I use from time to time have reminder signs at the exits stating "have you paid and displayed".

I think either just assuming that overnight car parking was permitted or arguing that as you didnt see the signage or could not see the signage you should not be penalised are stances unlikely to find favour with the court.

 

[DeRobeck]

Just a small point. I'm a user of Bache station myself and the car park is free. Something of a variety these days!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just a small point. I'm a user of Bache station myself and the car park is free. Something of a variety these days!

Most if not all Merseyrail owned car parks are free, they just have this silly no overnight parking rule!

 

[Deafdoggie]

Most if not all Merseyrail owned car parks are free, they just have this silly no overnight parking rule!

I guess if they were free and didn't have the rule they'd be overrun with cars, this way it empties them out. I'm impressed they have someone checking!

 

[ikcdab]

Most if not all Merseyrail owned car parks are free, they just have this silly no overnight parking rule!

Don't the two things go hand in hand? If it is free and you can stay overnight then people could stay forever, setting up a campsite..

 

[Kite159]

FYI I've just started a new thread in Speculative Discussion about the overnight car parking rules to avoid this thread drifting off-topic

Overnight Car Parking on Merseyrail run Stations

Following on from this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-station-car-park-offence.262417/#post-6626695 Is it just me who thinks that the no overnight parking rule is a bit outdated as it doesn't encourage someone to drive to a Merseyrail station (from say an area on the...

www.railforums.co.uk

As for the OP, I would suggest signing up for http://forums.pepipoo.com/ as they are probably better suited at dealing with car parking tickets.

----

As for enforcement @Deafdoggie it wouldn't surprise me if Merseyrail employ someone to drive around the network overnight to check for any vehicles parked overnight as 'security'.

 

[skyhigh]

When reading this whole chain of events, it's probably worth remembering that the initial penalty would have been a mere £30 if paid promptly.

If the OP has engaged with Merseyrail as they have here (long blocks of text, quoting meaningless codes of practice etc) then it's going to take a lot of untangling which will be impossible without seeing the correspondence from both sides, as has been requested. As a plea has been entered, there's not much time to do that.