Merseyrail should be extended to Wigan Wallgate

[Almyle503]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/headbolt-lane-work-commences-soon.225852/page-3#post-5591506

This is probably an unpopular take but I think the station is a bit too close to the current Kirkby station. I also think that merseyrail should go as far as Wigan Wallgate on that line. Unless the line up to Skelmersdale is built at some point. Maybe that'll bring a purpose to the third platform that @snowball mentioned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is probably an unpopular take but I think the station is a bit too close to the current Kirkby station. I also think that merseyrail should go as far as Wigan Wallgate on that line. Unless the line up to Skelmersdale is built at some point. Maybe that'll bring a purpose to the third platform that @snowball mentioned.

It's a mile and a bit. There are other pairs of Merseyrail stations closer together than that, e.g. Moreton and Leasowe are just under 1km (0.6 miles) apart.

I agree Merseyrail should run into the Wigan Wallgate bay. This may yet happen at some point with the battery trains.

 

[Skie]

I agree Merseyrail should run into the Wigan Wallgate bay. This may yet happen at some point with the battery trains.

The proposed Skem extension would preclude that from happening though. It’s 2 single tracks to Skem, one from the Wigan direction and one from Headbolt Lane. No connection between them. Cheap and short sighted, but designed before the battery units proved their worth, so hopefully warrants a rethink.

 

[snowball]

The proposed Skem extension would preclude that from happening though. It’s 2 single tracks to Skem, one from the Wigan direction and one from Headbolt Lane. No connection between them. Cheap and short sighted, but designed before the battery units proved their worth, so hopefully warrants a rethink.

As far as I'm aware the Skem extension is still a very long way away from happening, with no funding, no published plans, and no application for a Transport & Works order, so there's all the time in the world for that reported detail to change.

 

[Skie]

As far as I'm aware the Skem extension is still a very long way away from happening, with no funding, no published plans, and no application for a Transport & Works order, so there's all the time in the world for that reported detail to change.

It was at GRIP 3 in August 21 and the only options were single track, which does make it unlikely to be amended with dual track or a diamond.

 

[507020]

The proposed Skem extension would preclude that from happening though. It’s 2 single tracks to Skem, one from the Wigan direction and one from Headbolt Lane. No connection between them. Cheap and short sighted, but designed before the battery units proved their worth, so hopefully warrants a rethink.

The Skem extension must not sever the through line though. A through line will definitely be retained to provide freight access to the Knowsley recycling point and with the effort that’s being made to widen the embankment to continue to accommodate the reversing siding for it, it’s highly unlikely that it will be closed.

 

[Skie]

The Skem extension must not sever the through line though. A through line will definitely be retained to provide freight access to the Knowsley recycling point and with the effort that’s being made to widen the embankment to continue to accommodate the reversing siding for it, it’s highly unlikely that it will be closed.

That’s true, but it will remain as-is rather than be reused or connected to anything Merseyrail related. So in effect there will be 3 single lines in that area, which does seem rather silly.

 

[507020]

That’s true, but it will remain as-is rather than be reused or connected to anything Merseyrail related. So in effect there will be 3 single lines in that area, which does seem rather silly.

There won’t be 3 single lines or any 3 track sections beyond the reversing siding. It will likely be proper left hand running double track all the way from Kirkby until the new junction for Skelmersdale where the will be a trailing crossover and a single track branch line because a single track couldn’t accommodate 2tph to Skelmersdale as well as the freight traffic, let alone anything to Wigan. This junction will be located between Rainford and Upholland where the line is presently double track so I can’t see it being singled when the single track section is being redoubled. On the other side there should be another single track branch from Wigan to Skelmersdale with a facing crossover, preserving the double track through line for freight traffic and potential future services from Liverpool to Wigan.

Failing that, if they don’t want to spend the money, it will be double track from Kirkby to Headbolt Lane plus the reversing siding necessitating a 3 track embankment, continuing as 2 parallel single tracks with one to Skelmersdale from each side, the present up line being severed to create these and the down line becoming a bidirectional single track for freight traffic, but I can’t see this layout having much flexibility and it will still have to revert to proper double track running somewhere towards Upholland to feed into Wigan Wallgate, to avoid full Wigan area resignalling as part of the Skelmersdale scheme, which will necessitate a pair of crossovers and as many point faces as my aforementioned layout with the crossovers either side of the new junction.

The opposite would be required at Burscough, with 2 single track curves leaving the single track Ormskirk - Preston line and a pair of crossovers on the Southport - Wigan line.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't know why this idea keeps surfacing, it always strikes me as a form of crayonista fetish seeking to see more regular use of Wigan Wallgate's bay platform. It completely ignores what the actual demand from people on the route is which is predominantly cross-Wigan. There is little demand just to and from Wigan as for most people local bus services are more convenient. However travel to Manchester is another matter with plenty of both commuting and shopping/leisure trips. There is also a 6th form college at Orrell which attracts students from a large swathe of Wigan borough, especially Atherton and Daisy Hill but also from Walkden and even a few from Kirkby. However cross-Kirkby traffic is minimal and most of that is from Rainford.

In short in the absence of a Skelmersdale scheme being progressed the best improvement for the line would be a turnback facility at Orrell allowing for an improved service east of there ie increased frequency/reintroduction of evening/Sunday services. Failing that leave it alone!

 

[Gareth]

I'm not against it in principle but it will be at the expense of direct Skelmersdale-Wigan services. Of course, Wigan already has services to Liverpool via St Helens, so the existing plan of a triangle junction and two single lines into Skelmersdale for Merseyrail & Northern respectively, is probably the right decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know why this idea keeps surfacing, it always strikes me as a form of crayonista fetish seeking to see more regular use of Wigan Wallgate's bay platform.

That's not why I favour it. I favour it because the Atherton line is prime for conversion to Metrolink (freeing up paths into Victoria which could be used to take something else off Castlefield), and running Metrolink to Kirkby or Skem would be more than a little bit silly.

I suppose you could stick the wires up to Southport and Skem (coast under the Wallgate bridge or use EMUs with small batteries) and have it as a 4tph metro-style EMU service running to Stalybridge or Rochdale at t'other end (2 to Skem and 2 to Southport) - but can Victoria path that? And that would also leave the question of what to do with services via Westhoughton.

To me it'd be more sensible to have trams to Wigan 5 times an hour via Atherton, which would be a superb upgrade for everyone there and could run into Wigan town centre on street, avoiding the need for tram-train through Ince/Hindley* and providing a regeneration benefit Rochdale-style**, then wire to Southport and two EMUs per hour via Bolton to there, but that leaves Kirkby/Skem as an awkward little stub, hence the Merseyrail idea, the other option just being a simple single-DMU Wigan-Skem shuttle which would definitely be inferior, and would be very tempting for the bean counters to consider closing.

* Though I half recall these lines were once 4-tracked, so it might not be a problem anyway.
** Trams from Rochdale to Manchester are incredibly slow, slower than the bus in all likelihood, and more expensive too. But like Eccles, people are flocking to them in preference to the DMUs. So it has to be doing something right.

 

[The Planner]

It was at GRIP 3 in August 21 and the only options were single track, which does make it unlikely to be amended with dual track or a diamond.

Stuff gets amended well into the old GRIP4, if it needs altering it will be, they just rewind and the dates move out yet again.

 

[S&CLER]

That's not why I favour it. I favour it because the Atherton line is prime for conversion to Metrolink (freeing up paths into Victoria which could be used to take something else off Castlefield), and running Metrolink to Kirkby or Skem would be more than a little bit silly.

I suppose you could stick the wires up to Southport and Skem (coast under the Wallgate bridge or use EMUs with small batteries) and have it as a 4tph metro-style EMU service running to Stalybridge or Rochdale at t'other end (2 to Skem and 2 to Southport) - but can Victoria path that? And that would also leave the question of what to do with services via Westhoughton.

To me it'd be more sensible to have trams to Wigan 5 times an hour via Atherton, which would be a superb upgrade for everyone there and could run into Wigan town centre on street, avoiding the need for tram-train through Ince/Hindley* and providing a regeneration benefit Rochdale-style**, then wire to Southport and two EMUs per hour via Bolton to there, but that leaves Kirkby/Skem as an awkward little stub, hence the Merseyrail idea, the other option just being a simple single-DMU Wigan-Skem shuttle which would definitely be inferior, and would be very tempting for the bean counters to consider closing.

* Though I half recall these lines were once 4-tracked, so it might not be a problem anyway.
** Trams from Rochdale to Manchester are incredibly slow, slower than the bus in all likelihood, and more expensive too. But like Eccles, people are flocking to them in preference to the DMUs. So it has to be doing something right.

Hindley was 4-tracked, Ince has always been 2 tracks, as the junction for the Wigan avoiding line was east of Ince.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hindley was 4-tracked, Ince has always been 2 tracks, as the junction for the Wigan avoiding line was east of Ince.

Ah. That does mean some street running, but only a couple of kilometres and with some places where it could be run to the side of the road which is better than Eccles/Ashton where it's mostly along it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That's not why I favour it. I favour it because the Atherton line is prime for conversion to Metrolink (freeing up paths into Victoria which could be used to take something else off Castlefield), and running Metrolink to Kirkby or Skem would be more than a little bit silly.

I believe TfGM is losing interest in getting Metrolink onto the Atherton line, it's latest plans for the Salford Crescent/University area go no further than extending the Salford Quays line north to that area.

I suppose you could stick the wires up to Southport and Skem (coast under the Wallgate bridge or use EMUs with small batteries) and have it as a 4tph metro-style EMU service running to Stalybridge or Rochdale at t'other end (2 to Skem and 2 to Southport) - but can Victoria path that? And that would also leave the question of what to do with services via Westhoughton.

That would be much better than Metrolink given the amount of cross-Wigan traffic. Given a regular pattern I'm sure that could be pathed once TPE stop having extended dwells at Victoria.

To me it'd be more sensible to have trams to Wigan 5 times an hour via Atherton, which would be a superb upgrade for everyone there and could run into Wigan town centre on street, avoiding the need for tram-train through Ince/Hindley* and providing a regeneration benefit Rochdale-style**, then wire to Southport and two EMUs per hour via Bolton to there, but that leaves Kirkby/Skem as an awkward little stub, hence the Merseyrail idea, the other option just being a simple single-DMU Wigan-Skem shuttle which would definitely be inferior, and would be very tempting for the bean counters to consider closing.

* Though I half recall these lines were once 4-tracked, so it might not be a problem anyway.
** Trams from Rochdale to Manchester are incredibly slow, slower than the bus in all likelihood, and more expensive too. But like Eccles, people are flocking to them in preference to the DMUs. So it has to be doing something right.

The comparison with Rochdale is erroneous. Rochdale suffers from having its station quite a way away from the town centre in complete contrast with Wigan. If you want a proper visionary approach then you need to revisit the Picc-Vic idea only with a Salford Crescent-Piccadilly tunnel thereby removing the need for the Windsor Link and simplifying pathing between Castlefield and Ordsall Lane. If necessary the Cumbria/Scotland services could revert to the Chat Moss route.

 

[bramling]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/headbolt-lane-work-commences-soon.225852/page-3#post-5591506

This is probably an unpopular take but I think the station is a bit too close to the current Kirkby station. I also think that merseyrail should go as far as Wigan Wallgate on that line. Unless the line up to Skelmersdale is built at some point. Maybe that'll bring a purpose to the third platform that @snowball mentioned.

At first glance, yes it makes sense. However Liverpool already has a decent service to Wigan from Lime Street, so unless a case can be made for a decent level of Liverpool journeys from the other intermediate stations then I’m not sure a case stacks up.

In an ideal world there would be third rail to both Skelmersdale and Wallgate with a half-hourly service to each. But I can’t see that point ever being reached.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At first glance, yes it makes sense. However Liverpool already has a decent service to Wigan from Lime Street, so unless a case can be made for a decent level of Liverpool journeys from the other intermediate stations then I’m not sure a case stacks up.

In an ideal world there would be third rail to both Skelmersdale and Wallgate with a half-hourly service to each. But I can’t see that point ever being reached.

It wouldn't be for people going from Wigan to Liverpool, though no doubt it would be attractive to that. It's a local route that mainly provides for the intermediate stations.

 

[cle]

It's a decarbonization thing too. Absorbing these branches into higher frequency, newer stocked electric urban networks is just good practice. Less 2 car rubbish clogging up the (electrified) mainlines through Manchester too - which can in turn be repurposed for more suitable services.

Southport line services can cater for any cross-Wigan, and Wigan NW acts for Liverpool as well as other larger cities. Wallgate becomes even more local, but higher frequency. I think that's acceptable. Integrating them better, however that works - would be a longer term goal.

 

[HSTEd]

Extending Merseyrail to Wigan from Kirkby gets Skelmersdale something resembling a Merseyrail service for much less than building a new connection.
Upholland is going to be much closer to much of the town than Ormskirk.

Also it eliminates an operationally annoying stub and if the rest of Merseyrail is anything to go by, is likely to generate substantially increased traffic.

The current situation is rather absurd and the line has little to no future as it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Extending Merseyrail to Wigan from Kirkby gets Skelmersdale something resembling a Merseyrail service for much less than building a new connection.
Upholland is going to be much closer to much of the town than Ormskirk.

If you were going to do an integrated bus-based connection, it would be much easier not to bother changing anything about the existing line, and instead having a bus do a figure-8 of Skem (also providing a town service), to the Concourse, then head down the M58 to Maghull North for connections to Liverpool. That section of the M58 is basically never congested, it's about 1km from the motorway junction to Maghull North on what would be uncongested roads, and Upholland is served by narrow, quiet roads and has no space for decent parking.

Indeed, Maghull North is almost in a textbook location for providing a fully integrated, high quality bus-rail connection from Skem to Liverpool, with journey times door-to-door very competitive with the rail-only option, given that people would need to get to the Glenburn site to use that whereas the bus could do a loop of main roads and so serve every estate, and that the bus could run at 62mph on the motorway if a suitable type of vehicle was used.

I don't even slightly doubt that if it were Germany this would already be in place, with through ticketing, and very well used indeed. It's perhaps a little like the way Glinde is connected to Hamburg by a quality connection at U-Steinfurther Allee.

I furthermore suspect that any car owner in Skem going to Liverpool now does so by driving to Maghull North (not Ormskirk, which involves going about 1km north to go south!).

 

[Gareth]

Extending Merseyrail to Wigan from Kirkby gets Skelmersdale something resembling a Merseyrail service for much less than building a new connection.
Upholland is going to be much closer to much of the town than Ormskirk.

Also it eliminates an operationally annoying stub and if the rest of Merseyrail is anything to go by, is likely to generate substantially increased traffic.

The current situation is rather absurd and the line has little to no future as it is.

It would cost less but would also be correspondingly less useful. You get what you pay for.

Upholland isn't Skelmersdale, no matter how much one may wish it to be so. Skem is one of the largest towns in the country without a rail service and I would see a rail station (one actually in the town) as a key component in future regeneration efforts for that town.

Besides, the plan is a delta junction for services from both Liverpool & Wigan. This plan is fairly advanced now and it's unlikely they'll be going back to the drawing board.

 

[snowball]

This page, which was linked from post #31 of the main Headbolt Lane thread in the Infrastructure subforum, says

The long-term aspiration is that our Merseyrail trains will operate services on to Skelmersdale and Wigan.

 

[HST43257]

I think it should all be electrified/battery and there should be these services through Wigan area

2tph Merseyrail to Skem
2tph Merseyrail to Wigan (& Bolton?)
2tph Rochdale to Skem via Atherton
2tph Rochdale to Wigan NW via Atherton
2tph Manchester (not sure) to Southport via Bolton

Perhaps in off peak there’d be no Rochdale to Wigan NW as 4tph all day is perhaps excessive

Kirkby line stations to Wigan is an important link to keep imo, so there should be a link as current

 

[Bertie the bus]

This page, which was linked from post #31 of the main Headbolt Lane thread in the Infrastructure subforum, says

MerseyTravel have had long term aspirations to run to many places. There has been talk about through Liverpool - Preston via Ormskirk services for about 40 years. It doesn't mean it will ever happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it should all be electrified/battery and there should be these services through Wigan area

2tph Merseyrail to Skem
2tph Merseyrail to Wigan (& Bolton?)
2tph Rochdale to Skem via Atherton
2tph Rochdale to Wigan NW via Atherton
2tph Manchester (not sure) to Southport via Bolton

Perhaps in off peak there’d be no Rochdale to Wigan NW as 4tph all day is perhaps excessive

Kirkby line stations to Wigan is an important link to keep imo, so there should be a link as current

Time to say it again...do not mix Merseyrail with other services. It will break it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The odd end-on termini of Merseyrail's Northern Line branches to Ormskirk and Kirkby always struck me as odd, with the termini seemingly being chosen for operational or administrative convenience rather than the needs of passengers. That said, the very rural nature of Ormskirk to Preston (and Kirkby to Wigan to a lesser extent) doesn't need the full 4tph Merseyrail frequency.

Certainly with Headbolt Lane (and hopefully Skelmersdale in the future) being constructed, there's a chance to rethink how the route operates. Whilst Kirkby is a logical terminus for Merseyrail (being the edge of the Merseyside boundary) it's a bit of a nothing destination for the Northern services from Manchester. Although the same could be said about Skelmersdale, and Headbolt Lane. Without the spur to Skem, Wigan Wallgate would seem a more obvious point to terminate Merseyrail, with Wigan being a fairly large town. If Skelmersdale opens though, running Merseyrail beyond there towards Wigan would seem a step too far- and terminating there avoids conflicts between the two PTEs which could occur with Merseyrail serving Wigan.

 

[Gareth]

Kirkby doesn't really make sense at all. Ormskirk does, as it's a large town on the outer limits of the urban area and beyond there, the line takes on a rather rural character. Skelmersdale and Wigan are far more appropriate termini than Kirkby is though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Kirkby doesn't really make sense at all. Ormskirk does, as it's a large town on the outer limits of the urban area and beyond there, the line takes on a rather rural character. Skelmersdale and Wigan are far more appropriate termini than Kirkby is though.

I do wonder if this was happening today Ormskirk would actually have been Burscough, perhaps Bridge via the South Curve with the direct line having been mothballed instead. Burscough has grown a lot with lots of new housing and is very much part of the Liverpool travel to work area. Rufford is in the middle of a field, and the people of Croston are more interested in Preston and Chorley, with Croston-Preston being by far the busiest part of the line in so much as it's ever busy. Also, Burscough-Preston could be done hourly with a single unit.

I agree about Kirkby. The natural terminus is Wigan and/or Skem. I think these things didn't happen because Merseyside has never really taken its natural boundaries of the Liverpool travel to work area, which would very much include Ormskirk, Burscough, Rainford and Skem, and possibly even Wigan itself, though that is more debatable - it's definitely an odd fit in Greater Manchester.

FWIW, yes, it'd be a faff having to change at Wigan if travelling through - but I'd take 4tph (or even 2) with a change over 1tph without, particularly if it meant a proper evening service (i.e. last train from Liverpool after 2330) rather than the silly early finish that has persisted since the evening service was withdrawn due to persistent vandalism in the 80s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Kirkby doesn't really make sense at all. Ormskirk does, as it's a large town on the outer limits of the urban area and beyond there, the line takes on a rather rural character. Skelmersdale and Wigan are far more appropriate termini than Kirkby is though.

Ormskirk is a "large" town between September and May while the students are at Edge Hill Uni. In the summer it's a bit of a ghost town. If Merseyrail were ever to run beyond there it would be probably no further than Burscough (with something involving the curves) because beyond there is indeed very rural and sparsely populated. If the buffer stops weren't there the route still wouldn't be able to support an S-Bahn type frequency:- it was always more suited to intercity and regional services to Preston and beyond.

 

[Gareth]

I do wonder if this was happening today Ormskirk would actually have been Burscough, perhaps Bridge via the South Curve with the direct line having been mothballed instead. Burscough has grown a lot with lots of new housing and is very much part of the Liverpool travel to work area. Rufford is in the middle of a field, and the people of Croston are more interested in Preston and Chorley, with Croston-Preston being by far the busiest part of the line in so much as it's ever busy. Also, Burscough-Preston could be done hourly with a single unit.

I agree about Kirkby. The natural terminus is Wigan and/or Skem. I think these things didn't happen because Merseyside has never really taken its natural boundaries of the Liverpool travel to work area, which would very much include Ormskirk, Burscough, Rainford and Skem, and possibly even Wigan itself, though that is more debatable - it's definitely an odd fit in Greater Manchester.

I wouldn't be against Burscough Bridge, so long as Merseyrail remained separated. That would probably mean also reinstating the north curve for Preston-Burscough and cutting Preston-Ormskirk.

The other option is to keep Merseyrail as it is, reinstate the south curve and have direct Ormskirk-Southport service to compliment the Ormskirk-Preston service. These could take over serving the small stations at Bescar Lane and New Lane from the Southport-Manchester services.