Merseyrail separate or run by Northern

[Philip]

Do people think the Merseyrail is better run as a completely separate franchise as it has been for the last 20 odd years, or would the operations and ticketing be better if Northern ran the service and the local PTE provided funding as is the case in Manchester, Birmingham, West/South Yorkshire, London etc? And with all Merseyrail staff tupeeing to Northern and the traincrew transfering to Lime Street depot?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do people think the Merseyrail is better run as a completely separate franchise as it has been for the last 20 odd years, or would the operations and ticketing be better if Northern ran the service and the local PTE provided funding as is the case in Manchester, Birmingham, West/South Yorkshire, London etc? And with all Merseyrail staff tupeeing to Northern and the traincrew transfering to Lime Street depot?

Separate, without a doubt. Northern is a shambles. Merseyrail, while it has its own issues, is at least punctual and reliable.

 

[adamedwards]

What would be the gain from this? Being separate it has focussed management and a unified team. So why change?

 

[Purple Orange]

What would be the gain from this? Being separate it has focussed management and a unified team. So why change?

That is an advert for splitting up management of other TOCs in to smaller operations.

 

[Neptune]

Do people think the Merseyrail is better run as a completely separate franchise as it has been for the last 20 odd years, or would the operations and ticketing be better if Northern ran the service and the local PTE provided funding as is the case in Manchester, Birmingham, West/South Yorkshire, London etc? And with all Merseyrail staff tupeeing to Northern and the traincrew transfering to Lime Street depot?

100% solution looking for a problem.

Also the bit in bold. What would sticking the crew at a single platform station halfway around the loop which isn’t connected to half the system achieve?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Merseyrail is far superior to Northern, in every respect apart from issuing tickets outside the Merseyrail network

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There are some issues with the set-up on Merseyside but merging Merseyrail into Northern is not the solution. What would be better is for Merseytravel (PTE) and Merseyrail (TOC) to have completely separate identities rather than looking, at least to the uninitiated, like the same thing. Or even prevent Merseyrail from issuing their own TOC only tickets which are routinely abused by (attempted) usage on the Northern operated Citylines whose stations have Merseytravel branding.

The most likely change though is a longer-term move to nationalisation and a streamlining of local identities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are some issues with the set-up on Merseyside but merging Merseyrail into Northern is not the solution. What would be better is for Merseytravel (PTE) and Merseyrail (TOC) to have completely separate identities rather than looking, at least to the uninitiated, like the same thing. Or even prevent Merseyrail from issuing their own TOC only tickets which are routinely abused by (attempted) usage on the Northern operated Citylines whose stations have Merseytravel branding.

They do need to pack in with the TOC specific tickets at 10p less than a Saveaway. It's really unhelpful and of no real benefit to the passenger at all.

The most likely change though is a longer-term move to nationalisation and a streamlining of local identities.

The TOC won't become part of GBR as such because it's not a franchised TOC any more, it's a local concession rather like ScotRail or TfW were before nationalisation, or London Overground and Crossrail now. It's likely GBR's relationship will just be maintaining the infrastructure, though the PTE has I believe considered taking that on and making it more Metrolink like in terms of who is responsible for things.

 

[Gareth]

Do people think the Merseyrail is better run as a completely separate franchise as it has been for the last 20 odd years, or would the operations and ticketing be better if Northern ran the service and the local PTE provided funding as is the case in Manchester, Birmingham, West/South Yorkshire, London etc? And with all Merseyrail staff tupeeing to Northern and the traincrew transfering to Lime Street depot?

Do you? If so, I'd like to hear the rationale. If not, was the thread really necessary? This isn't something that ever really comes up. The only person on here I recall seriously advocating it had a serious "scousers" issue and seemed to dislike the existence of Merseyrail purely due to this affliction. Other than that, the odd person has suggested it in passing when making a list of rationalised TOCs but those people tend to not be at all familiar with the system, or really care one way or another beyond the thought exercise.

 

[Philip]

Do you? If so, I'd like to hear the rationale. If not, was the thread really necessary? This isn't something that ever really comes up. The only person on here I recall seriously advocating it had a serious "scousers" issue and seemed to dislike the existence of Merseyrail purely due to this affliction. Other than that, the odd person has suggested it in passing when making a list of rationalised TOCs but those people tend to not be at all familiar with the system, or really care one way or another beyond the thought exercise.

It would potentially prevent the revenue loss problems of Merseyrail-only or Northern-only tickets being used on the other's services. I'm a bit surprised that the Merseyrail network has been separate from the big TOC of the area since privatisation - seems like it'd have been simpler just to put it into FNW/Northern control. Liverpool to Chester via Birkenhead and Liverpool to Southport feel like they should be Northern-operated routes from a geographic perspective.

 

[The Planner]

It would potentially prevent the revenue loss problems of Merseyrail-only or Northern-only tickets being used on the other's services. I'm a bit surprised that the Merseyrail network has been separate from the big TOC of the area since privatisation - seems like it'd have been simpler just to put it into FNW/Northern control. Liverpool to Chester via Birkenhead and Liverpool to Southport feel like they should be Northern-operated routes from a geographic perspective.

Geography doesn't matter as many anomalies show.

 

[Djgr]

Merseyrail v Northern. What an uneven contest. Northern have had so many years of under investment and performance. Nobody would ever want them to have anything to do with Merseyrail.

Merseyrail is perceived as a local operator who attempts to understand and meet local needs. Northern is perceived as a geographically remote operator (which of course it is) who has no interest, understanding or commitment.

 

[6Gman]

Do people think the Merseyrail is better run as a completely separate franchise as it has been for the last 20 odd years, or would the operations and ticketing be better if Northern ran the service and the local PTE provided funding as is the case in Manchester, Birmingham, West/South Yorkshire, London etc? And with all Merseyrail staff tupeeing to Northern and the traincrew transfering to Lime Street depot?

The taxi drivers of Merseyside would approve.

Think of all the work taking traincrew to Birkenhead and Kirkdale each morning!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would potentially prevent the revenue loss problems of Merseyrail-only or Northern-only tickets being used on the other's services. I'm a bit surprised that the Merseyrail network has been separate from the big TOC of the area since privatisation - seems like it'd have been simpler just to put it into FNW/Northern control. Liverpool to Chester via Birkenhead and Liverpool to Southport feel like they should be Northern-operated routes from a geographic perspective.

Do you think Metrolink should come under Northern too? It has more in common with that than the run down operator of rotting 2 car 1980s DMUs North West Regional Railways was at the time.

I suspect had it been built just a few years later it would, like the Newcastle Metro, never have had anything to do with BR.

 

[S&CLER]

I've never felt that the Southport line "should" be Northern operated. Heaven preserve us from that fate! I admit that I've often noted how poor connections between Merseyrail and Northern are at Southport - it's very common to arrive on a Northern dmu from Wigan on time, at the very moment a Merseyrail emu pulls out, and the opposite is not rare either. Some may say that with a 15-minute frequency it doesn't matter, but a 3 minute connection would be feasible, especially between platforms 4 and 3. But this is a problem that might be solved by tweaking timetables, there is no need for common ownership. Merseyrail at present is , to my mind, a rose among thorns, surrounded by deadbeats like Northern and TfW. Please leave it alone and let it get on with the job it does well. And I've never had any trouble buying tickets for off-Merseyrail places at Southport, for example when using my Merseytravel pass to South Parkway or Chester and wanting a ticket from there, or a combination of day return to Parbold and GM Conc Wayfarer, for example if I planned to go to one station in Derbyshire, do a walk and then get a bus and return from another station. Merseyrail/Merseytravel also have a good record of station improvements, better than any other TOC in my opinion; the latest example being the much-needed lifts at Hillside, which are now being built. Northern has not done anything on the same scale.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There are indications that the ORR might relent on future third-rail electrification (with mitigations such as switching the power off in stations when trains are not present), so it would make sense operationally to actually expand the Merseyrail network. The obvious ones are Kirkby to Wigan (plus new Skelmersdale branch) and Ormskirk to Preston, but also Hunt's X to Warrington and Bidston to Wrexham. Quite how the funding would be arranged with lines way outside Merseyside is another matter of course.

 

[D821]

Leave Merseyrail as it is, thanks. It's not perfect, but they provide a very good service for most of the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are indications that the ORR might relent on future third-rail electrification (with mitigations such as switching the power off in stations when trains are not present), so it would make sense operationally to actually expand the Merseyrail network. The obvious ones are Kirkby to Wigan (plus new Skelmersdale branch) and Ormskirk to Preston, but also Hunt's X to Warrington and Bidston to Wrexham. Quite how the funding would be arranged with lines way outside Merseyside is another matter of course.

It would definitely make sense to take third rail out to Headbolt Lane. I envisage a lot of "turning short" at Kirkby when a non battery fitted 777 ends up on the wrong diagram.

 

[Djgr]

I

There are indications that the ORR might relent on future third-rail electrification (with mitigations such as switching the power off in stations when trains are not present), so it would make sense operationally to actually expand the Merseyrail network. The obvious ones are Kirkby to Wigan (plus new Skelmersdale branch) and Ormskirk to Preston, but also Hunt's X to Warrington and Bidston to Wrexham. Quite how the funding would be arranged with lines way outside Merseyside is another matter of course.

I am very sympathetic to the idea that failing TOCs should be gradually shrunk with routes at their periphery passed across to the better ones. Of course this is easier said than done.

However, it would certainly be an interesting exercise to think about what lines could be swapped across.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Merseyrail is far superior to Northern, in every respect apart from issuing tickets outside the Merseyrail network

This keeps being mentioned as an issue on Merseyrail, is it a relatively recent thing? Back in the mid-2000s I lived in Ormskirk and regularly bought tickets at Ormskirk ticket counter to places a long way from Merseyside. Never had any clerks refuse to issue tickets to Windermere, Taunton, Aberystwyth, Farnham, or anywhere else.

 

[D821]

ISTR Merseyrail running a big campaign pre-Covid about being able to buy tickets to anywhere in the UK from their stations.

 

[Gathursty]

This keeps being mentioned as an issue on Merseyrail, is it a relatively recent thing? Back in the mid-2000s I lived in Ormskirk and regularly bought tickets at Ormskirk ticket counter to places a long way from Merseyside. Never had any clerks refuse to issue tickets to Windermere, Taunton, Aberystwyth, Farnham, or anywhere else.

I think the M-to-Go shop retailers would prefer you to buy a simple ticket based on my interactions with them. I've had no issues with a proper Merseyrail ticket office.

 

[507020]

It would potentially prevent the revenue loss problems of Merseyrail-only or Northern-only tickets being used on the other's services. I'm a bit surprised that the Merseyrail network has been separate from the big TOC of the area since privatisation - seems like it'd have been simpler just to put it into FNW/Northern control. Liverpool to Chester via Birkenhead and Liverpool to Southport feel like they should be Northern-operated routes from a geographic perspective.

You are ignoring the fact that Merseyrail emerged as a separate franchise at privatisation to operate what were always historically a separate operation, the electric services. The Northern franchises had only a handful of electric services on the WCML and ECML from Leeds and Manchester and these were not 3rd rail or even comparable. An island of established 3rd rail was perfect to form a self contained operation, without being lumped together with the rest of Northern.

Merseyrail/Merseytravel also have a good record of station improvements, better than any other TOC in my opinion; the latest example being the much-needed lifts at Hillside, which are now being built. Northern has not done anything on the same scale.

It cannot be emphasised how much lifts at Hillside have been needed since it was built in 1926, or the chaos the lack of them causes during golf tournaments when the bridge has to be closed to allow wheelchair users to arrive by road. Why lifts were built at stations which had step free access to both platforms beforehand I will never know. Apparently they didn’t realise they would be building on sand… which is of course highly offensive to anyone who has ever lived in Southport. Aerial photos from the 1930s show semi detached houses being built among sand dunes identical to those that survive further along the coast.

 

[dvfmlfc]

Merseyside PTE (Merseytravel) has always been a pro-rail authority - it spent much of its early life setting up bus/rail interchange facilities at various stations, and the Loop and Link lines were nothing short of revolutionary for Liverpool city centre. Both the Wirral and Northern lines were consistent, reliable and regular. As a consequence of bus deregulation, MPTE took a more active role in vigorously promoting and supporting the train services they funded.

There has always been a distinction between Merseytravel and Merseyrail - they've always been separate entities, but I for one am happy with close co-operation that exists between the two. I believe Merseytravel is constantly frustrated with the City Line, because that involves differing relationships with operators and providers who have to give as much time to forces outside the Merseyside PTE boundaries as they do inside it.

 

[MattRat]

There are some issues with the set-up on Merseyside but merging Merseyrail into Northern is not the solution. What would be better is for Merseytravel (PTE) and Merseyrail (TOC) to have completely separate identities rather than looking, at least to the uninitiated, like the same thing. Or even prevent Merseyrail from issuing their own TOC only tickets which are routinely abused by (attempted) usage on the Northern operated Citylines whose stations have Merseytravel branding.

The most likely change though is a longer-term move to nationalisation and a streamlining of local identities.

But what's the point of Merseyrail branded stations on the City Line if you can't use a Merseyrail ticket for them?

 

[507020]

But what's the point of Merseyrail branded stations on the City Line if you can't use a Merseyrail ticket for them?

Merseyrail is the unified brand name devised by British Rail for its mostly electric rail services in the Merseyside PTE area and stations are branded as such. The Merseyrail TOC that uses it and operates some of them also sells a ticket and it is very much a case of A ticket, because if you ask for all but the shortest possible journeys, you will be sold the Merseyrail TOC specific day saver which is not valid on the city lines from Lime Street.

 

[Philip]

Clearly people don't feel Merseyrail joining Northern would be a good idea, but on a broader perspective I feel Northern should have set up a traincrew depot at Crewe or Chester in their early years and that way they could have run Crewe-Chester, Crewe-Shrewsbury, Wrexham-Bidston and Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool which are local routes and, location-wise, more appropriate in the Northern franchise than the Welsh one. The Welsh franchise could then focus their resources more towards the longer distance services without having to serve these local routes.

Northern's most southerly depots (in the NW) are Piccadilly and Lime Street which are a bit far away from the southern outposts of the region and network around Crewe, Nantwich and Stoke.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

But what's the point of Merseyrail branded stations on the City Line if you can't use a Merseyrail ticket for them?

It would appear that, like so many people, you fail to draw any distinction between the identities of Merseyrail and Merseytravel. City line stations are branded as the latter, not the former. Hence my original point about the brands being much too similar in appearance ie both heavily reliant on yellow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would appear that, like so many people, you fail to draw any distinction between the identities of Merseyrail and Merseytravel. City line stations are branded as the latter, not the former. Hence my original point about the brands being much too similar in appearance ie both heavily reliant on yellow.

For a very long time the whole thing was branded as Merseyrail, and the TOC Merseyrail Electrics Ltd, and the shift away from that (and I'd agree there has been one) has been gradual and not well-publicised, so I suspect he is in the majority as having that slightly confused view.

Regarding station branding, the signage was for many years like this - i.e. the same as on the third rail lines. From a quick Google the bottom bar has been taped over on "City Line" stations (or at least some of them) but it's not been done with a huge swathe of publicity.

(M) Station Name
Merseyrail

 

[507020]

For a very long time the whole thing was branded as Merseyrail, and the TOC Merseyrail Electrics Ltd, and the shift away from that (and I'd agree there has been one) has been gradual and not well-publicised, so I suspect he is in the majority as having that slightly confused view.

Regarding station branding, the signage was for many years like this - i.e. the same as on the third rail lines. From a quick Google the bottom bar has been taped over on "City Line" stations (or at least some of them) but it's not been done with a huge swathe of publicity.

(M) Station Name
Merseyrail

There is also the issue that most of the city line services are now also “electrics”