Merseyrail - ripping off passengers (again!)

[nedchester]

Just popped in to Liverpool from my local station (Capenhurst)

Went to the TVM and looked at the options for Liverpool. The only return ticket offered was £6.20 Anytime return!!! According to NFM07 there is a £4.80 Anytime (route any permitted) whereas the £6.20 is route Birkenhead (not sure why this ticket exists)

Now obviously I didn't get either as I searched on the machine to find the Day Saver ticket at £4.40.

So basically an unsuspecting punter at Capenhurst not only gets ripped off by not knowing about the day saver but also ripped off by being charged £1.40 extra when they don't need to even at peak times.

Not good.

 

[mumrar]

Just popped in to Liverpool from my local station (Capenhurst)

Went to the TVM and looked at the options for Liverpool. The only return ticket offered was £6.20 Anytime return!!! According to NFM07 there is a £4.80 Anytime (route any permitted) whereas the £6.20 is route Birkenhead (not sure why this ticket exists)

Now obviously I didn't get either as I searched on the machine to find the Day Saver ticket at £4.40.

So basically an unsuspecting punter at Capenhurst not only gets ripped off by not knowing about the day saver but also ripped off by being charged £1.40 extra when they don't need to even at peak times.

Not good.

Most people would post this as a problem with the TVM or it's software. Not you though, you evidently know better, and have proof to back up your claim that Merseyrail is 'ripping of passengers!'.

Are you angling for a career in the media? If so, then you've made an excellent start by showing -
A) Contempt for anything railway.
B) The ability to make claims without supporting evidence.

Good luck with the Daily Mail interview

 

[MikeWh]

Most people would post this as a problem with the TVM or it's software. Not you though, you evidently know better, and have proof to back up your claim that Merseyrail is 'ripping of passengers!'.

Are you angling for a career in the media? If so, then you've made an excellent start by showing -
A) Contempt for anything railway.
B) The ability to make claims without supporting evidence.

Good luck with the Daily Mail interview

Yes, it's a fault with the TVM software. But, who owns the TVM? Are you saying that it is acceptable for TOCs to hide the cheapest fares from unsuspecting travellers? If the stations had open ticket offices then the chances are the clerk would sell the most appropriate ticket.

Also, please do expand on how the OP has shown contempt for anything railway?

 

[mumrar]

Yes, it's a fault with the TVM software. But, who owns the TVM? Are you saying that it is acceptable for TOCs to hide the cheapest fares from unsuspecting travellers? If the stations had open ticket offices then the chances are the clerk would sell the most appropriate ticket.

Also, please do expand on how the OP has shown contempt for anything railway?

In the same way you have. You say that the cheaper fares are hidden. What I suspect you mean is that the cheaper fares are not shown. If something is hidden, that means it has been deliberately concealed. The allegation from the OP and yourself by using the word hide, is that Merseyrail are deliberately and conciously hiding cheaper fares on their TVMs.

I'm more than happy to accept this as the case if either the OP or yourself have evidence that proves this to be true. If it isn't then it would be better to report theident using facts rather than corrupting the use of English language my misusing the words 'deliberate' and 'hide' in posts on the topic.

The section of my post regarding the media was a deliberate attempt to use the same kind of extreme non-factual exaggeration to get my point across, much as the OP did.

 

[Greenback]

It's debatable whether Merseyrail have done this deliberately. But the fact remains that they are responsible for the TVM's, and the changes in fare structures that they introduced a few months ago.

There will be people who have paid too much for their ticket from this TVM and perhaps others as well. This is a direct result of the cheaper fares not being shown on the initial screen and passengers havign tos earch for them. In the circumstances, I can well understand if there is a sense of cynicism about it.

 

[nedchester]

It's debatable whether Merseyrail have done this deliberately. But the fact remains that they are responsible for the TVM's, and the changes in fare structures that they introduced a few months ago.

There will be people who have paid too much for their ticket from this TVM and perhaps others as well. This is a direct result of the cheaper fares not being shown on the initial screen and passengers havign tos earch for them. In the circumstances, I can well understand if there is a sense of cynicism about it.

Exactly.

I have in fact emailed Merseyrail (although last time it took over a month for them to respond!)

The fact is that when they removed CDRs a few months ago the only fare available was the £4.80 Anytime fare, they then put the Day Saver on (£4.40) but today I noticed the £6.20 Anytime fare only being offered.

The problem I have with this is the fact that countless numbers of people who use the machine are being ripped off. It is Merseyrails responsibility to ensure the TVMs offer the correct fares. They are not.

Hopefully, 'First Class' may be along shortly to offer an explanation as I believe he works for Merseyrail and may be able to investigate this matter.

 

[Greenback]

He may not be, he doesn;t seem very active on here at the moment.

It seems to me that changes to the fares that Merseyrail brought in have been ineptly handled at best. I'm afraid that whether it's deliberate or not, it really isn't good enough that this sort of thing has not been sorted out before now.

 

[radamfi]

At the minimum, I would expect stickers placed on ticket machines explaining that you need to choose Day Saver for returns to Liverpool or any fare on Merseyrail where the Anytime Return is higher than a Day Saver.

It may be better to email the PTE (Merseytravel) rather than the TOC (Merseyrail) as I would expect greater sympathy from them. Capenhurst is outside the PTE area but the same issue presumably applies at other Merseyrail stations within Merseyside.

 

[nedchester]

Well an update to this

NFM07 has the following available:

Capenhurst to Liverpool Route any permitted £4.80 or route Birkenhead £6.20 (both valid via Birkenhead)

NFM08 has just the route Birkenhead ticket at £6.45 and not SDR via the Any Permitted ticket.

So call me cynical but Merseyrail have effectively decided to increase their Anytime ticket by a whopping 34% by withdrawing the Any Permitted ticket.
No wonder they have hidden the Any Permitted ticket on their TVM in recent weeks.

 

[First class]

Well an update to this

NFM07 has the following available:

Capenhurst to Liverpool Route any permitted £4.80 or route Birkenhead £6.20 (both valid via Birkenhead)

NFM08 has just the route Birkenhead ticket at £6.45 and not SDR via the Any Permitted ticket.

So call me cynical but Merseyrail have effectively decided to increase their Anytime ticket by a whopping 34% by withdrawing the Any Permitted ticket.
No wonder they have hidden the Any Permitted ticket on their TVM in recent weeks.

A Helsby-Liverpool CDR is still available at £5.10 rte Any Permitted.

However, you could not obtain this from Capenhurst.

The Liverpool-Chester Any Permitted fare is pretty defunct really. By only having route Birkenhead or Warrington it also removes Runcorn (Virgin's) from the list of routes you could travel via and I doubt many took advantage of that...

The 'Day Saver' is very easy to find:

-Popular Destinations
-Day Saver!

Two buttons from first approaching

Of course, you have to ensure it is a valid time for the machine to issue it, (Y7 restriction).

 

[ChrisTheRef]

A Helsby-Liverpool CDR is still available at £5.10 rte Any Permitted.

However, you could not obtain this from Capenhurst.

The Liverpool-Chester Any Permitted fare is pretty defunct really. By only having route Birkenhead or Warrington it also removes Runcorn (Virgin's) from the list of routes you could travel via and I doubt many took advantage of that...

The 'Day Saver' is very easy to find:

-Popular Destinations
-Day Saver!

Two buttons from first approaching

Of course, you have to ensure it is a valid time for the machine to issue it, (Y7 restriction).

Very easy?

How is Day Saver a popular destination?

 

[vjm1975]

The Anytime any route permitted to Liverpool ticket is still available. It is on the ticket machines at Ellesmere Port, Overpool & Little Sutton anyway, so no idea why it wouldn't be on the one at Capenhurst. It is also the very first one on popular destinations.

Day Saver is on the second page of popular destinations. Both the All Zones, and Area G (£3.20). Though Merseyrail did say that it was going to be on the first page. At the very least there needs to be information notice on or near the TVM telling people how to find it.

 

[nedchester]

The Anytime any route permitted to Liverpool ticket is still available. It is on the ticket machines at Ellesmere Port, Overpool & Little Sutton anyway, so no idea why it wouldn't be on the one at Capenhurst. It is also the very first one on popular destinations.

Day Saver is on the second page of popular destinations. Both the All Zones, and Area G (£3.20). Though Merseyrail did say that it was going to be on the first page. At the very least there needs to be information notice on or near the TVM telling people how to find it.

But Merseyrail would want that as they can flog the Anytime ticket to unsuspecting passengers.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A Helsby-Liverpool CDR is still available at £5.10 rte Any Permitted.

However, you could not obtain this from Capenhurst.

The Liverpool-Chester Any Permitted fare is pretty defunct really. By only having route Birkenhead or Warrington it also removes Runcorn (Virgin's) from the list of routes you could travel via and I doubt many took advantage of that...

The 'Day Saver' is very easy to find:

-Popular Destinations
-Day Saver!

Two buttons from first approaching

Of course, you have to ensure it is a valid time for the machine to issue it, (Y7 restriction).

My point was that effectively the Anytime ticket is going up from £4.80 to £6.45 as they have removed the 'route Any Permitted' so those travelling in the morning peak will have to pay a 34% higher fare. Seem to remember when Merseyrail took over the franchise they committed themselves to a no more than inflation fares rises. Now they seem to be just changing the rules to suit themselves.

 

[supervalkoinen]

Everything about the way this new ticket has been introduced substantiates what the OP says.
At Chester (the last time I was there) there are tatty bits of paper stuck to the tkt machines telling passengers that cheaper fares to "Lpool Stations" are available from the tkt office at some times.
There was no info about the new tkt at Capenhurst / Bache.
Merseyrail have maintained a public silence about fare discrepancies while privately asking overpayers to exchange tkts at destination and/or ask for a refund.
There are still large numbers of casual travellers from unstaffed stations who are unaware of these fare changes and are consequently being ripped off.
Please see earlier threads.

 

[nedchester]

Everything about the way this new ticket has been introduced substantiates what the OP says.
At Chester (the last time I was there) there are tatty bits of paper stuck to the tkt machines telling passengers that cheaper fares to "Lpool Stations" are available from the tkt office at some times.
There was no info about the new tkt at Capenhurst / Bache.
Merseyrail have maintained a public silence about fare discrepancies while privately asking overpayers to exchange tkts at destination and/or ask for a refund.
There are still large numbers of casual travellers from unstaffed stations who are unaware of these fare changes and are consequently being ripped off.
Please see earlier threads.

I had noticed the bits of paper on the machines at Chester. At least ATW are trying to advise passengers about the availability of the Day Saver. Meanwhile those at the unstaffed stations are misled into buying more expensive tickets at both Peak and Off Peak times; a double deception IMHO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further to this from NFM08 - Chester/Capenhurst to Liverpool = £6.45 SDR, Chester/Capenhurst to Southport =£6.20!!!!

 

[vjm1975]

The way Merseyrail handled the whole introduction of the Day Saver tickets was awful. It took over a month for them to appear on the TVM's. Merseyrail said in an email to me, that these Day Saver tickets will be on the first page, but they are not.

People are buying the more expensive tickets. On more than one occasion I have pointed people towards the day saver ticket. Though this causes some confusion as they have 'Single' printed on them. On the rare occasion I have seen Guards walking through the train, I have heard them advising people about the day saver ticket though when someone has purchased the Any Time ticket.

Unless the average passenger browses similar forums such as this, or similar, they would have no idea that such a ticket exists, or how to get hold of it. I certainly wouldn't of done. Though the Day Saver was advertised at stations, it wasn't advertised at any unmanned stations.

Also, Merseyrail obviously are very good at working around the no more than inflation increases. Firstly, axing off peak singles, then off peak returns less than £3.00, then off peak returns all together. What Next?? Also, I noticed a single fare from Overpool to Ellesmere Port goes up from £1.00 to £1.50 in the new year, yet the return goes up from £1.20 to £1.30. Has a mistake been made on the single fare there?

In regards to the any permitted return ticket, I was questioning why this no longer appears on the TVM at Capenhurst, but does on the TVMS at E.Port, Overpool & Little Sutton.

 

[nedchester]

In regards to the any permitted return ticket, I was questioning why this no longer appears on the TVM at Capenhurst, but does on the TVMS at E.Port, Overpool & Little Sutton.

It does appear but it is not in the 'popular' destination options which only offers Liverpool = £6.20, if you search for Liverpool then you get offered the Any Permitted ticket (£4.80) but after next week that option will be removed as the only ticket will be the via Birkenhead ticket £6.45 as Merseyrail contrive to raise the fares by 34% by the back door.

 

[Polarbear]

The 'Day Saver' is very easy to find:

-Popular Destinations
-Day Saver!

It's only easy to find if you know a) how to do this & b) what you are looking for!

I went to Bache station earlier today but for the life of me, couldn't remember what had been said on this thread. Could I find out how to issue a day saver; no. Was there any form of instruction at the ticket machine (or indeed, anywhere on the station) to tell me how to purchase this ticket; no!

Most people would request a return ticket from Bache to Liverpool, but the only return that is now offered by the machine is the Anytime Return.:roll:

I suspect the great majority of passengers boarding at the unstaffed stations are indeed paying over the odds for their off peak tickets to Liverpool & beyond. In the circumstances, I decided not to travel to Liverpool today (as I didn't want to get "ripped off" or have the hassle of getting a refund that I shouldn't have to bother applying for in the first place!

I have been a supporter of rail travel for many years, but in recent years, the lack of proper customer service has become more & more apparent to me. Passengers are just treated as cash cows - not customers.

 

[daikilo]

It's only eay to find if you know a) how to do this & b) what you are looking for!

I went to Bache station earlier today but for the life of me, couldn't remember what had been said on this thread. Could I find out how to issue a day saver; no. Was there any form of instruction at the ticket machine (or indeed, anywhere on the station) to tell me how to purchase this ticket; no!

Most people would request a return ticket from Bache to Liverpool, but the only return that is now offered by the machine is the Anytime Return.:roll:

I suspect the great majority of passengers boarding at the unstaffed stations are indeed paying over the odds for their off peak tickets to Liverpool & beyond. In the circumstances, I decided not to travel to Liverpool today (as I didn't want to get "ripped off" or have the hassle of getting a refund that I shouldn't have to bother applying for in the first place!

I have been a supporter of rail travel for many years, but in recent years, the lack of proper customer service has become more & more apparent to me. Passengers are just treated as cash cows - not customers.

If what you say is correct, the fact that lower fares are available but are not clearly shown on the first page of the TVMs probably contravenes current legislation. This opens a pandora's box. If I were Merseyrail I'd get this fixed lightning quick like on 28/12.

 

[Polarbear]

I've actually just e-mailed Merseyrail with a complaint on this topic.

It's been like this since the introduction of the Daysaver ticket in September 2010, but for whatever reason, Merseyrail don't seem to want to do anything about it. I've quoted some of their customer charter back to them & illustrated how (in my opinion), they're not complying with that.

It's not only that the TVM's don't show the fare readily, there are no adverts regarding the Daysaver fare at Bache station, nor any guidance on or around the TVM on how to obtain a Daysaver ticket. However, there are at least four large Penalty Fare notices dotted around the station!

As I've indicated in another thread, Merseyrail seem to increasingly treat their so called customers as potential criminals, whilst at the same time, not doing their part by advertising all of the available fares. It's all become very one sided & no other retailer in the UK would get away with treating it's "customers" in this manner.

If they don't do something about it soon, I'll take it up with passenger focus & I may even bang onto my MP about it as well, but I'll give Merseyrail chance to reply to my complaint first.

 

[prod_pep]

Glad to hear it has been brought to their attention. One of many problems I feel exist with this operator that are ignored time and time again. Capacity on the Southport line is my major gripe, but that's another story.

Just looking at their website tells its own story IMO - an arrogant operator full of its own importance. We'll return to our "high quality" service as soon as possible, it says, as well as their high and mighty "Our Mission" section that is remarkably pompous. Style over substance would apply here, I would suggest.

 

[nedchester]

I've actually just e-mailed Merseyrail with a complaint on this topic.

It's been like this since the introduction of the Daysaver ticket in September 2010, but for whatever reason, Merseyrail don't seem to want to do anything about it. I've quoted some of their customer charter back to them & illustrated how (in my opinion), they're not complying with that.

It's not only that the TVM's don't show the fare readily, there are no adverts regarding the Daysaver fare at Bache station, nor any guidance on or around the TVM on how to obtain a Daysaver ticket. However, there are at least four large Penalty Fare notices dotted around the station!

As I've indicated in another thread, Merseyrail seem to increasingly treat their so called customers as potential criminals, whilst at the same time, not doing their part by advertising all of the available fares. It's all become very one sided & no other retailer in the UK would get away with treating it's "customers" in this manner.

If they don't do something about it soon, I'll take it up with passenger focus & I may even bang onto my MP about it as well, but I'll give Merseyrail chance to reply to my complaint first.

I emailed them back in September about the Day Saver took them over a month to reply.

I have emailed them again about the TVMs at Capenhurst and so far not even had an acknowledgement.

Good idea about Passenger Focus but lets see what reply we get first but there again the damage will have been done by the January fare change and Chester/Bache/Capenhurst passengers will have been subjected to an up to 34% rise in fares. Not bad for a TOC that claimed that fare rises would be pegged to inflation!!

Interestingly I note that Ellesmere Port to Liverpool SDR is only £5.00 whereas Capenhurst to Liverpool SDR (One mile less) is £6.45.

 

[Pumbaa]

I too will fire off a letter to them, and I think copy in my local MP Louise Ellman, Wavertree (the chair of the Transport Select Committee) if they don't get their act together. I usually start my journeys at Lime St or Central, so obtaining the DaySaver is not as much of an issue for me.

 

[supervalkoinen]

I wonder if there is a hidden agenda here.

The Sept fare changes seemed to go through fairly painlessly in the Merseytravel area. The problems have all occurred in Cheshire stations, which are more often unstaffed. Is there an uneasy alliance between Merseyrail/Merseytravel/CWAC Council?

Also, I think it's been said in the past that the Merseyrail boss travels from Bache, so could not fail to be aware of the lack of info.

 

[John @ home]

I think copy in my local MP Louise Ellman, Wavertree (the chair of the Transport Select Committee)

Pumbaa, if you do write to Louise Ellman MP could you please ask her to ask DfT whether this fare:

Liverpool Stations - Capenhurst
Anytime Day Return (SDR)
route Any Permitted
£4.80

is a Protected Fare. She is likely to receive a faster reply than any of us.

I suspect this may well be a Protected Fare.

This fare exists in NFM 07 (see post #1 above) but is withdrawn from 2 January 2011. If it is a Protected Fare, its price is Regulated and its withdrawal would not be lawful.

 

[185]

The general view from an RPI I speak to, is that most fares are now a mess and fare increases when this was introduced have in many instances been over the top.

From their perspective, trying to enforce & defend these fares has become a lot more difficult, thanks to someone up in Rail House, who initially thought this was a good idea.

Most annoyingly, Merseytravel, the PTE have sat idle and watched this happen.

 

[nedchester]

Just fired this off to Merseyrail:

Dear Sir,

Fares from unstaffed stations on Merseyrail.

In September I wrote to you about the unavailability of the new ‘Day Saver’ ticket from unstaffed stations such as my local one of Capenhurst. You replied (after a long delay) that the ticket would be added to the Ticket Vending Machines (TVMs) very soon.

Although I have noted that the ticket has indeed been added I have to say that it cannot be easily found and there is no advertising on the station referring to its existence. Therefore I would imagine the vast majority of travellers arriving at stations such as Capenhurst will be purchasing an ‘Anytime’ return ticket rather than the cheaper Day Saver. I see plenty of posters for the Penalty Fares scheme to ensure passengers buy a ticket but not one to tell passengers what tickets are available!!!

Further to this I notice also that the Anytime Return ticket from Capenhurst to Liverpool is shown on the initial screen on the TVM as £6.20 (route Birkenhead) whereas the ticket that used to be displayed on the initial screen was the £4.80 (route Any Permitted). So a passenger travelling Off Peak is being misled into paying £1.80 extra for their fare and those travelling Peak are being misled into paying £1.40 extra.

I have also looked at the fares from the January fare change and notice that the Capenhurst to Liverpool ‘Anytime’ ticket (formerly £4.80) has been removed and the only Anytime ticket from Capenhurst to Liverpool is £6.45 (route Birkenhead). This means that the Anytime fare from Capenhurst has gone up a massive 34.3% in January. So much for the Merseyrail franchise commitment of not raising fares above inflation!!!

I note that the Anytime return fares from Chester and Bache to Liverpool are the same as those from Capenhurst (a much shorter distance). I also note that the Anytime fares from Ellesmere Port to Liverpool (route Any Permitted and one mile further than Capenhurst to Liverpool!!) has only gone up from £4.80 to £5.00.

I would like a prompt response on this matter. If I do not obtain a suitable response then I will take the issue further.