Merseyrail penalty fare

[sawf01]

Hi
My 15yr old son was traveling for the first time alone on a short journey using Merseyrail, basically he bought what he thought was the right ticket to get to where he wanted to for £2.35, anyway he had his ticket checked and it was found to be incorrect, the ticket he had bought didn't enable him to travel to the station he wanted to go to, the correct tickets value was £2.40. He did explain it was his first time traveling on the network alone and wasn't totally sure if he had done everything right and did try and pay the 5p difference in ticket value to the person who had found the mistake, the 5p offer was declined, he gave his details and I he has now received to penalty fare notice to pay for the value of £52.40. Is it worth me even trying to appeal ? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[peterblue]

Where was your son travelling to/from and what kind of ticket was held? There are different tickets types such as peak, off-peak, advance... If you can remember what it was, that would be useful. Price difference doesn't matter to the railways as much as whether a ticket is 'right' or 'wrong'. More information is required in order to assist and provide the best possible advice.

 

[gray1404]

Also please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice so we can check for any errors.

 

[sawf01]

He was travelling fro Capenhurst to Rock ferry

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

Also please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice so we can check for any errors.

 

[peterblue]

Indeed, that wouldn't be valid as Rock Ferry isn't in Area G. Who did your son buy the ticket from? I think that's an uncommon ticket for someone travelling for the 'first time' to buy immediately. I am asking because if your son was told to buy this ticket from an authorized member of staff you may have more grounds to appeal, though it may be a difficult thing to prove. Some more experienced members will be around to offer advice shortly.

Merseyside Ticket Zones explained here, with a map at the bottom: https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/tickets-and-pricing/ticket-types/saveaway-ticket/

 

[sawf01]

Indeed, that wouldn't be valid as Rock Ferry isn't in Area G. Who did your son buy the ticket from? I think that's an uncommon ticket for someone travelling for the 'first time' to buy immediately. I am asking because if your son was told to buy this ticket from an authorized member of staff you may have more grounds to appeal, though it may be a difficult thing to prove. Some more experienced members will be around to offer advice shortly.

Merseyside Ticket Zones explained here, with a map at the bottom: https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/tickets-and-pricing/ticket-types/saveaway-ticket/

No, he bought the ticket from a machine on his own.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

Its not so much the fact it was the wrong ticket, it just seems quite harsh to fine a child £52.40p for a 5p mistake ?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Start by looking at https://www.merseyrail.org/about-us/understanding-revenue-protection/ - scroll down to the penalty fare FAQs and it explains the mechanics of how and when to appeal.

But you also need to decide if it's worth the effort. Others will probably be along shortly to comment on that.

 

[gray1404]

What's your son issued with any paperwork at the time?

 

[peterblue]

Start by looking at https://www.merseyrail.org/about-us/understanding-revenue-protection/ - scroll down to the penalty fare FAQs and it explains the mechanics of how and when to appeal.

But you also need to decide if it's worth the effort. Others will probably be along shortly to comment on that.

In OP's case I think it is best to pay up, though it will be expensive it is cheaper now than later. I agree it's unfair in the OP's case.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi
My 15yr old son was traveling for the first time alone on a short journey using Merseyrail, basically he bought what he thought was the right ticket to get to where he wanted to for £2.35, anyway he had his ticket checked and it was found to be incorrect, the ticket he had bought didn't enable him to travel to the station he wanted to go to, the correct tickets value was £2.40. He did explain it was his first time traveling on the network alone and wasn't totally sure if he had done everything right and did try and pay the 5p difference in ticket value to the person who had found the mistake, the 5p offer was declined, he gave his details and I he has now received to penalty fare notice to pay for the value of £52.40. Is it worth me even trying to appeal ? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

Aside from the practical advice an an Appeal I would urge you also engage with and fill in the Regulators (ORR) currently open inquiry survey about this as that is in response to government investigation into penalties like this.

Eg if things too harsh for minor genuine errors.

It’s open until 30 Jan.

Linked to off this forum so you can complete it on line.

Here

Call for evidence: Review of train operators’ revenue protection policies | Office of Rail and Road

Call for evidence for the ORR independent review of train operators’ revenue protection practices.

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[KirkstallOne]

The papers have been all over the train companies recently for petty stuff like this. Merseyrail also recently had 16,000 convictions quashed as they had been unlawfully prosecuting people.

I would contact the press, this is ridiculous.

 

[sawf01]

What's your son issued with any paperwork at the time?

Yes he was given a Penalty Fare Notice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

The papers have been all over the train companies recently for petty stuff like this. Merseyrail also recently had 16,000 convictions quashed as they had been unlawfully prosecuting people.

I would contact the press, this is ridiculous.

To be honest he's a good kid and its driving me mad, I totally get its the wrong ticket, he maybe should of taken more time at the ticket machine! I just think it could of been handled better at the time. To fine a minor £50 over a 5p mistake just seems so disproportionate, why they couldn't of shown him his mistake, accepted the extra 5p from him and maybe even put his name on the system in case a similar thing was to happen again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

Aside from the practical advice an an Appeal I would urge you also engage with and fill in the Regulators (ORR) currently open inquiry survey about this as that is in response to government investigation into penalties like this.

Eg if things too harsh for minor genuine errors.

It’s open until 30 Jan.

Linked to off this forum so you can complete it on line.

Here

https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-consu...train-operators-revenue-protection-policies[/

http://

Aside from the practical advice an an Appeal I would urge you also engage with and fill in the Regulators (ORR) currently open inquiry survey about this as that is in response to government investigation into penalties like this.

Eg if things too harsh for minor genuine errors.

It’s open until 30 Jan.

Linked to off this forum so you can complete it on line.

Here

Call for evidence: Review of train operators’ revenue protection policies | Office of Rail and Road

Call for evidence for the ORR independent review of train operators’ revenue protection practices.

www.orr.gov.uk

Just done it, Thanks

 

[KirkstallOne]

Yes he was given a Penalty Fare Notice

Just to be clear, this is not a Penalty Fare, those are penalties brought in by statute and have various protections like a 3 stage appeal process and restrictions on prosecution. They cannot be issued after the fact, only on the spot.

This is a Penalty Notice, something entirely of Merseyrail’s invention. Essentially it is an offer to settle or else they will criminally prosecute your son.

If you would like the details of some journalists who may be interested in covering this please DM me.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just to be clear, this is not a Penalty Fare,

It certainly purports to be one - look at the second line of the paragraph starting 'Payment is required'. And the amount of the charge is consistent with a penalty fare.

As the OP has decided to pay and not pursue further, we can't really ask for more information, but I suspect that this is the reminder letter following up an on-the-spot penalty fare notice.

 

[KirkstallOne]

It certainly purports to be one - look at the second line of the paragraph starting 'Payment is required'. And the amount of the charge is consistent with a penalty fare.

As the OP has decided to pay and not pursue further, we can't really ask for more information, but I suspect that this is the reminder letter following up an on-the-spot penalty fare notice.

Apologies on closer inspection it does look like one. I was thrown by some of the loose language on the letter (calling it a fine) but I can see it could be a reminder as you say.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

I’m not sure either way tbh, letter says an officer ‘reported your dependant for non-payment of a fare’. OP implied their details were taken, not that a penalty was issued on the spot. Do they send reminders within the 21 day window?

 

[sawf01]

Apologies on closer inspection it does look like one. I was thrown by some of the loose language on the letter (calling it a fine) but I can see it could be a reminder as you say.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

I’m not sure either way tbh, letter says an officer ‘reported your dependant for non-payment of a fare’. OP implied their details were taken, not that a penalty was issued on the spot. Do they send reminders within the 21 day window?

Hi
He was given a Penalty Fare Notice on the spot and the letter followed about a week later

 

[KirkstallOne]

Ok thanks for the clarification. I guess it is because he is a minor that they sent out a letter to yourself shortly after it was issued.

 

[Hadders]

Legally speaking, the Penalty Fare is an appropriate way to deal with something like this. That said, it ridiculous given the circumstances.

It is possible there might be a very technical reason why the Penalty Fare might be invalid - other forum members are better placed to advise on this than me. I would consider contacting your local councillor about this and also contact the press. As stated upthread railway prosecutions are very much in the spotlight at the moment and some bad publicity for Merseyrail might just persuade them to withdraw the Penalty Fare.

 

[WesternLancer]

http://

Just done it, Thanks

Thanks for taking the time to do so.

If you live in the Merseyrail area then probably also might be an idea to write to your MP or councillor about it too.

 

[M28361M]

Justin Madders, the MP for Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, has been quite good on Merseyrail matters in the past I believe. Capenhurst station itself is just outside his constituency, but if the OP and their son live inside, I'm sure he would take up their case.

It's long been my view that the interface on Merseyrail ticket machines is confusing and leads to people being overcharged (buying a standard Single or Return ticket when a Day Saver would be cheapest appropriate ticket) or in this case the reverse, buying a Day Saver when it isn't the appropriate ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

No good for what has happened but maybe their policy of having staffed ticket offices at most stations means in future op’s son can buy from a person and avoid ticket machines if desired.

 

[vjm1975]

No good for what has happened but maybe their policy of having staffed ticket offices at most stations means in future op’s son can buy from a person and avoid ticket machines if desired.

There is no ticket office at Capenhurst. Just a ticket machine

 

[Djgr]

There is no ticket office at Capenhurst. Just a ticket machine

It's in Cheshire. No ticket office at Bache, Little Sutton and Overpool either.

 

[chesterred16]

Indeed, that wouldn't be valid as Rock Ferry isn't in Area G. Who did your son buy the ticket from? I think that's an uncommon ticket for someone travelling for the 'first time' to buy immediately. I am asking because if your son was told to buy this ticket from an authorized member of staff you may have more grounds to appeal, though it may be a difficult thing to prove. Some more experienced members will be around to offer advice shortly.

Merseyside Ticket Zones explained here, with a map at the bottom: https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/tickets-and-pricing/ticket-types/saveaway-ticket/

Capenhurst is unstaffed, it's you and the non-user-friendly machine.

 

[WesternLancer]

There is no ticket office at Capenhurst. Just a ticket machine

Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[Discuss223]

I didn't know Penalty Fares could be issued to under 16 year olds.

 

[WirralLine]

For future reference, the day saver he should have bought would be the £3.40 (all zone) one. However a child return from Capenhurst to Rock Ferry would be £2.50, so if he's just going there and back in future, this would be the cheapest option (or the £2.40 single if hes not returning).

 

[sawf01]

For future reference, the day saver he should have bought would be the £3.40 (all zone) one. However a child return from Capenhurst to Rock Ferry would be £2.50, so if he's just going there and back in future, this would be the cheapest option (or the £2.40 single if hes not returning).

Hi, yes thanks for this info, he was only going one way as we were picking him up to get home, so yes he should of purchased the £2.40 ticket. We really don't use the trains a great deal to be honest I didn't even know about how the network is zoned until this so I know for sure he didn't.