Merseyrail Off-Peak Day Saver (again)

[supervalkoinen]

These tickets have now disappeared from the TVM screen at Bache.
Any ideas?

 

[First class]

Still available, destination is northwirralines

The front screen is just the top destinations sold recently.

 

[nedchester]

Still available, destination is northwirralines

The front screen is just the top destinations sold recently.

Aye but how many passengers know that. Bet they all buy the Anytime Liverpool ticket for £2 more as Merseyrail refuse to inform passengers on the machine or anywhere on the station of the existence of the Day Saver. Seem they just like conning people out of £2 extra for their train journey.....

I'd love to see the stats of how many Anytime returns to Liverpool from the likes of Bache and Capenhurst are bought at Off peak times.....

 

[First class]

Ranger and Rover tickets are NOT required to be offered unless specifically requested.

It is the same as a Cheshire Day Ranger or All Line Rover, just the product is fudged to be saleable from a TVM.

It is a "special offer" and not a permanent fare.

Wait until January and then you'll be posting A LOT MORE...

I have seen the LENNON stats and they show that the very few Anytime tickets sold are during the peak or to stations where an Anytime ticket is cheaper. There are obviously a few sales that are potentially wrongly purchased, but the customer may have other reasons.

 

[supervalkoinen]

Still available, destination is northwirralines

The front screen is just the top destinations sold recently.

Not sure about that - I couldn't find it yesterday and have spoken to others who couldn't.
It's certainly disappeared from the initial screen,

 

[First class]

Not sure about that - I couldn't find it yesterday and have spoken to others who couldn't.
It's certainly disappeared from the initial screen,

Well if that is the case, comply with the NRCoC and Penalty Fare rules by purchasing a ticket and sorting at next available opportunity.

 

[nedchester]

Wait until January and then you'll be posting A LOT MORE...

Oh yeah....what's going on there....Merseyrail moving some more goalposts with regards to peak and off-peak then?

As an aside I think Merseyrail offer a great service but there are some things that need much improving......

 

[First class]

Oh yeah....what's going on there....Merseyrail moving some more goalposts with regards to peak and off-peak then?

As an aside I think Merseyrail offer a great service but there are some things that need much improving......

Well Y7 may go to a B1, but that's not what the main change is.

All of the fares inc. Day Saver are completely redesigned, some discounts are no longer offered.

A lot of anomalies have been normalised.

 

[323235]

Ranger and Rover tickets are NOT required to be offered unless specifically requested.

Well they should be, I find it pretty ridiculous that the railways can't organise themselves and don't offer ALL of their own tickets from every Ticket Vending Machine. Yet then have a Penalty Fare system in place to potentially penalise people who can't buy the correct through no fault of their own. If your not going to offer it to anyone, Don't bother having it. They should have a continual software upgrade plan for adding new tickets to the system with proper sensible name, I don't consider anything other than DAYSAVER to be acceptable for the ticket highlighted in this thread. Who decided it should be called northwirrallines on TVM's seriously?

Railways :roll:

 

[trainophile]

Well Y7 may go to a B1, but that's not what the main change is.

All of the fares inc. Day Saver are completely redesigned, some discounts are no longer offered.

A lot of anomalies have been normalised.

Have you got fuller information on these changes please? Will I still be able to get a £4.60 day saver for bus + train in Southport? Will it still extend as far as Chester?

 

[323235]

The Bus/Train/Ferry tickets arn't DaySavers, they are Saveaways which is a Merseytravel promoted product. DaySavers are only valid on Merseyrail and nothing else, while Saveaways are valid on all TOC's. Saveaways only come with a Child Discount.

 

[trainophile]

The Bus/Train/Ferry tickets arn't DaySavers, they are Saveaways which is a Merseytravel promoted product. DaySavers are only valid on Merseyrail and nothing else, while Saveaways are valid on all TOC's. Saveaways only come with a Child Discount.

Oh sorry, my mistake. Never can remember the correct terminology. Thanks for putting me straight.

 

[nedchester]

Well they should be, I find it pretty ridiculous that the railways can't organise themselves and don't offer ALL of their own tickets from every Ticket Vending Machine. Yet then have a Penalty Fare system in place to potentially penalise people who can't buy the correct through no fault of their own. If your not going to offer it to anyone, Don't bother having it. They should have a continual software upgrade plan for adding new tickets to the system with proper sensible name, I don't consider anything other than DAYSAVER to be acceptable for the ticket highlighted in this thread. Who decided it should be called northwirrallines on TVM's seriously?

Railways :roll:

Indeed. It is just lazy for the TOCs not to offer the full range of on the day tickets (including seasons/rovers/rangers) at TVMs. I would even go so far as to say that you should be able to buy tickets for departure from other stations. For example buy a Crewe to Birmingham ticket from Capenhurst. The data on Avantix is not a massive file size by today's standards so why not offer that as well.

You can still have the main screen offering the normal tickets with extra buttons for other options.

 

[supervalkoinen]

Well if that is the case, comply with the NRCoC and Penalty Fare rules by purchasing a ticket and sorting at next available opportunity.

I think that's a glib answer which shows little regard for the reality of most travellers.

When an OPDR existed between Bache and (e.g) Liverpool, the fare was transparent, it was there on the TVM screen and every passenger was able to make a clear informed decision about what to buy.

With the mishandled and underpublicised replacement of OPDR by the day saver ticket, hundreds (perhaps thousands) of passengers have overpaid for their journeys from Bache. I have made a point of showing people how to get the day saver tkts.

Merseyrail gave a similar answer when the changes were first made, telling people to overpay and apply for refunds at destination stations.

Why not actually make things simple by having the right tickets in the right place?

 

[First class]

I think that's a glib answer which shows little regard for the reality of most travellers.

When an OPDR existed between Bache and (e.g) Liverpool, the fare was transparent, it was there on the TVM screen and every passenger was able to make a clear informed decision about what to buy.

With the mishandled and underpublicised replacement of OPDR by the day saver ticket, hundreds (perhaps thousands) of passengers have overpaid for their journeys from Bache. I have made a point of showing people how to get the day saver tkts.

Merseyrail gave a similar answer when the changes were first made, telling people to overpay and apply for refunds at destination stations.

Why not actually make things simple by having the right tickets in the right place?

The NRCoC apply everywhere, not just to Merseyrail. The DfT approve the NRCoC.

Think about this:

1) The Day Saver is available from a TVM, (more than what other TOCs have done with rangers/rovers)
2) For the most part, it is on the front screen in an obvious location
3) Website has advertising on it
4) This product is a special offer and can be withdrawn at any time
5) No legal requirement to advertise it
6) A4 signs have been put up, for definite, and the fact they are being removed is not the TOCs fault.

No passengers are overpaying. They are simply buying a different ticket. Perhaps they want to use a different route, or TOC?

Nevertheless, the opportunity to buy the ticket exists at the station. If you don't then you should at least buy something to your destination/interchange point, as the NRCoC state, and sort it out there.

 

[323235]

No passengers are overpaying.

Do you really believe that with 100% Certainty?
because even if it was as clear as it could be I would never be that certain there wasn't someone who was overpaying or getting misguided due to uncertainty (whether it be their own or being incorrectly advised by staff) with ticket restrictions

 

[supervalkoinen]

The NRCoC apply everywhere, not just to Merseyrail. The DfT approve the NRCoC.

Think about this:

1) The Day Saver is available from a TVM, (more than what other TOCs have done with rangers/rovers)
2) For the most part, it is on the front screen in an obvious location
3) Website has advertising on it
4) This product is a special offer and can be withdrawn at any time
5) No legal requirement to advertise it
6) A4 signs have been put up, for definite, and the fact they are being removed is not the TOCs fault.

No passengers are overpaying. They are simply buying a different ticket. Perhaps they want to use a different route, or TOC?

Nevertheless, the opportunity to buy the ticket exists at the station. If you don't then you should at least buy something to your destination/interchange point, as the NRCoC state, and sort it out there.

Are you serious?

 

[First class]

Are you serious?

The Day Saver is not always the best product.

What if someone wants to go to Liverpool South Parkway with Northern or Transpennine?

What if someone wants to go via Warrington towards Liverpool?

What if they hold a railcard or entitlement that isn't valid on the Day Saver?

What if they want to travel in the peak?

 

[headshot119]

In fairness all the TVMs at Chester have a sign on them advertising the day saver telling you exactly what to select and the restrictions.

 

[Polarbear]

No passengers are overpaying. They are simply buying a different ticket. Perhaps they want to use a different route, or TOC?

Really? I would like to know the stats for how many "Anytime" returns are sold for the following scenario;

• 
  From the TVM's on the network After 09:30 on weekdays That cost more than £4.50 For destinations on the Northern or Wirral Lines

I suspect there will be quite a few tickets sold each & every day. And you seriously suggest that these customers are not being overcharged?

In fairness all the TVMs at Chester have a sign on them advertising the day saver telling you exactly what to select and the restrictions.

Yes, this is true, but no such signs at Bache, Capenhurst or I suspect at Little Sutton or Overpool. The lack of advertising of the Daysaver at the unstaffed stations is a sore point. Just because a company has the right not to advertise a product does not mean they do not have to do so.

 

[First class]

Really? I would like to know the stats for how many "Anytime" returns are sold for the following scenario;

• 
  From the TVM's on the network After 09:30 on weekdays That cost more than £4.50 For destinations on the Northern or Wirral Lines

I suspect there will be quite a few tickets sold each & every day. And you seriously suggest that these customers are not being overcharged?

They are paying the fare that is set, which is the correct fare.

If THE PASSENGER elects to chose a more expensive fare, when others may be more suitable, then that is up to them. Like other rangers/rovers, if you don't know they exist, you don't buy them...

The only way (really) to find out is by browsing the special offers page on National Rail.

At MOST, people would be buying a different fare costing £2 more than the day saver.

Little Sutton - Day Saver is 50p cheaper
Overpool - Day Saver 50p cheaper
Ellesmere Port - Day Saver 50p cheaper so long as you want to avoid Warrington
Bache - Day Saver £1.85 cheaper (again avoiding Warrington)
Capenhurst - Day Saver £1.95 cheaper (avoiding Warrington)

In the case of Ellesmere Port, Little Sutton & Overpool, there is a better ticket to buy (UNTIL JANUARY 2012) than the Day Saver if you look for £4.10 due to anomaly. So Day Saver not worth ever buying.

 

[vjm1975]

Also, though there are signs telling you how to get the Day Saver ticket on the TVM's at Chester, no such signs appear at the unmanned Merseyrail stations and never have done. This was something that was confirmed by Merseyrail in some of the correspondence I have had with them as to why the Day Savers were so difficult to find to the unsuspecting passenger(when they used to be on page 2 on Popular Destinations). They suggested at the time they were looking in to providing more information on the tickets at unmanned stations but currently had no plans to do so.

Also, before Merseyrail finally got round to adding the Day Savers to the TVM's,despite being required to do so, staff at Liverpool Central once refused to change an Anytime Day return to a Day Saver and refund the difference claiming they were too busy, despite there being no one at the ticket office. So to expect passengers to buy a more expensive ticket when there is no guarantee that they will be able to change it for a correct ticket is a bit off.

Most passengers I see at Merseyrail unmanned stations seem to buy any time returns rather than day savers. Guards often tell people about the correct tickets for next time they use the train, (most have no idea the ticket exists or how to select it from the TVM),

Also, the fact that Day Savers are adorned with SGL and SINGLE often causes confusion for any one that does select that ticket.

 

[First class]

Also, before Merseyrail finally got round to adding the Day Savers to the TVM's,despite being required to do so, staff at Liverpool Central once refused to change an Anytime Day return to a Day Saver and refund the difference claiming they were too busy, despite there being no one at the ticket office. So to expect passengers to buy a more expensive ticket when there is no guarantee that they will be able to change it for a correct ticket is a bit off.


Also, the fact that Day Savers are adorned with SGL and SINGLE often causes confusion for any one that does select that ticket.

1) You should have made a complaint, but that is just one experience. I've not ever seen anyone refused an exchange and refund.
2) Don't you think it is possibly better to stop selling the ticket at unstaffed stations rather than have confused people thinking they have a single?
3) All of this is irrelevant come January anyway... it will be "simple" at least...

 

[nedchester]

Also, though there are signs telling you how to get the Day Saver ticket on the TVM's at Chester, no such signs appear at the unmanned Merseyrail stations and never have done. This was something that was confirmed by Merseyrail in some of the correspondence I have had with them as to why the Day Savers were so difficult to find to the unsuspecting passenger(when they used to be on page 2 on Popular Destinations). They suggested at the time they were looking in to providing more information on the tickets at unmanned stations but currently had no plans to do so.

Also, before Merseyrail finally got round to adding the Day Savers to the TVM's,despite being required to do so, staff at Liverpool Central once refused to change an Anytime Day return to a Day Saver and refund the difference claiming they were too busy, despite there being no one at the ticket office. So to expect passengers to buy a more expensive ticket when there is no guarantee that they will be able to change it for a correct ticket is a bit off.

Most passengers I see at Merseyrail unmanned stations seem to buy any time returns rather than day savers. Guards often tell people about the correct tickets for next time they use the train, (most have no idea the ticket exists or how to select it from the TVM),

Also, the fact that Day Savers are adorned with SGL and SINGLE often causes confusion for any one that does select that ticket.

Absolutely.

I have lost count of the number of times that I have stood behind people at the TVM at Capenhurst (at off peak times) and they just blindly choose the £6.45 Anytime option for Liverpool. If I am quick I will point out to them the Day Saver - they usually look at me with suspicion though when I do. Up until September 2010 Merseyrail had an off peak return from Capenhurst to Liverpool and then withdrew it in favour of the Day Saver. Passengers suddenly started paying nearly £2 more for their tickets when they didn't need to. Therefore a lot of passengers are overpaying. Those £2 will mount up.....!

There has never been any notices of any kind at the unmanned stations about the Day Saver (I know as I use Capenhurst several times a week)

To suggest that some from Capenhurst, for example, may want to go via Warrington is a red herring. They only elect to choose the more expensive fare due to ignorance of the cheaper fare.

To state "it's on the website' is also not good enough. Firstly not many will necessarily use the Merseyrail website and secondly the website is not very clear:

http://www.merseyrail.org/tickets/off-peak-daysaver.html

Sorry, First Class. But Merseyrail are being underhand with their ticketing from unmanned stations on Merseyrail. They know that most people will choose the wrong ticket and are profiting from peoples ignorance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

3) All of this is irrelevant come January anyway... it will be "simple" at least...

What's the betting that Merseyrail will introduce and evening peak?

 

[MikeWh]

No passengers are overpaying. They are simply buying a different ticket.

The Day Saver is not always the best product.

What if someone wants to go to Liverpool South Parkway with Northern or Transpennine?

What if someone wants to go via Warrington towards Liverpool?

What if they hold a railcard or entitlement that isn't valid on the Day Saver?

What if they want to travel in the peak?

They are paying the fare that is set, which is the correct fare.

I have to say, First class, that these responses are the sort that give rail staff a bad name. You may be technically correct, but you are so far wide of the mark it's got my blood boiling. Yes, if any of the specific circumstances above apply then they are getting the correct ticket. But I'll bet the vast majority of people want returns to Liverpool, and if they don't see or know about the daysave product then I'm afraid they are being overcharged.

We have similar issues here in London since oysterisation abolished off-peak paper tickets. The difference here is that travelcards are actively sold where they are cheaper, even to the point of being mentioned on TVMs.

 

[Polarbear]

They are paying the fare that is set, which is the correct fare.

If THE PASSENGER elects to chose a more expensive fare, when others may be more suitable, then that is up to them. Like other rangers/rovers, if you don't know they exist, you don't buy them...

I find this both glib & patronising to say the least. So what you are basically saying is that you consider passengers to be too thick to be able to make an informed choice between available products - so don't tell them about the cheaper product & they don't have to make a choice!

The Anytime return is the correct fare for journeys made in the peak hours on weekdays. It is NOT the correct fare off peak, no matter how you try to dress it up.

How about supermarkets? They all have different products at different prices & yes, they do have slick marketing techniques. But on no occasion have I ever noticed a supermarket not displaying prices for it's cheaper products. All prices are clearly displayed & the customer makes the choice & that's the way it should be on the railway.

You mentioned in another thread that you saw posters being printed that were designed to inform customers at the unstaffed stations about the Daysaver ticket. That none of these posters have ever appeared speaks volumes about Merseyrails' attitute towards their so called customers.

I used to use Merseyrail & it's predecessors on the line from Chester to Liverpool a lot, (over 30 years), but the problems with the availability of the Daysaver ticket from Bache, coupled with one too many occasions stood waiting for trains with no information at Bache, I've given up. :roll:

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I must refund 10-15 tickets per shift from unstaffed stations where passengers have bought the incorrect ticket.
I have, however, seen passengers with Day Saver tickets purchased from TVMs at Bache, Capenhurst, Little Sutton and Overpool, so it's not impossible.

 

[WestCoast]

If I had my way, Rovers/Rangers would be advertised extensively and would be sold through all sales outlets (Ticket Office/TVM/Online).

Northern are quite good at the advertising part of that though, with many posters at stations. Other TOCs not so much.

 

[bb21]

No passengers are overpaying.

This is a very brave statement. Do you have any factual statistics to back up your claim?

They are paying the fare that is set, which is the correct fare.

Not during off-peak times as others have pointed out.

If THE PASSENGER elects to chose a more expensive fare, when others may be more suitable, then that is up to them. Like other rangers/rovers, if you don't know they exist, you don't buy them...

The only way (really) to find out is by browsing the special offers page on National Rail.

Why do passengers have to jump through hoops to find out about a simple product that the TOC offers? They cannot make an informed decision if they don't know about the product. If the TOC does not want to offer the product then why have them available for sale in the first place?

At MOST, people would be buying a different fare costing £2 more than the day saver.

If it really is such a trivial matter as you seem to suggest, may I request that Merseyrail not Penalty Fare any passenger who underpays by up to £2?

2) Don't you think it is possibly better to stop selling the ticket at unstaffed stations rather than have confused people thinking they have a single?

The sceptic in me can't stop thinking that it was what they intended all along. Then they can withdraw the ticket quoting the fact that no one buys them.

I have to say, First class, that these responses are the sort that give rail staff a bad name. You may be technically correct, but you are so far wide of the mark it's got my blood boiling. Yes, if any of the specific circumstances above apply then they are getting the correct ticket. But I'll bet the vast majority of people want returns to Liverpool, and if they don't see or know about the daysave product then I'm afraid they are being overcharged.

We have similar issues here in London since oysterisation abolished off-peak paper tickets. The difference here is that travelcards are actively sold where they are cheaper, even to the point of being mentioned on TVMs.

Agree completely.

 

[Greenback]

It is a great idea from the Merseyrail point of view.

1. Withdraw Off Peak fares
2. Introduce a new unlimited travel off peak day ticket
3. Don't put the ticket on TVM's
4. Don't publicise it at unstaffed stations
5. Tell everyone the new ticket is a special offer and can be withdrawn at any time
6. Withdraw it.

They can then either introduce a new special offer at a higher price, reintorduce off peaks at a higher price, or simplify the ticketing by only offering Anytime singles or day returns.

Ker-ching!