Merseyrail. New Stock.

[jbhtrams]

I was told years ago, by a member of the team bringing the 508 stock into service at Birkenhead North Dept, that because theyhad longer bodies and longer bogies, this was the reason they were getting so much wheel/flange wear. Is this right?

Would Merseyrail be better getting shorter or light rail stock? Perhaps Train Trams???
jbhtrams

 

[rww100]

There's already a thread on exactly the same topic which discusses this.

The existing fleet is due to come off lease and be replaced within the next 4-5 years. Any new trains will need to fit the constrictive loading gauge of the Liverpool Loop so perhaps light/medium rail may be an option.

Personally I'd rather travel on a heavy rail fleet, especially on the longer journeys such as Liverpool - Chester or Hunts Cross - Southport.

Something similar to London Overground's new 378s would be nice, but perhaps with conventional seating, and only if they meet the tunnel health and safety requirements.

Dual-voltage capability is also a must, with so many potential expansions to the network.

I'm not too sure if the 507s/508s have longer bodies or bogies than other similar rolling stock. I would have thought it would be more likely to be the opposite.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd have thought the 378's would be fine on the tunnel regs; the reason they have a different front and cab to the 376 is that it incorporates an emergency escape door.

 

[ukrob]

I was told years ago, by a member of the team bringing the 508 stock into service at Birkenhead North Dept, that because theyhad longer bodies and longer bogies, this was the reason they were getting so much wheel/flange wear. Is this right?

Would Merseyrail be better getting shorter or light rail stock? Perhaps Train Trams???
jbhtrams

Compared to what?

 

[poshbakerloo]

The trains have run on there for ages now...why suddenly change then for different styles

 

[ukrob]

The trains have run on there for ages now...why suddenly change then for different styles

By your logic there would still be steam locos everywhere as there is no point investigating different and better ways of doing things.

 

[bluenoxid]

The trains have run on there for ages now...why suddenly change then for different styles

More efficient, more capacity

 

[generalvegitable]

By your logic there would still be steam locos everywhere as there is no point investigating different and better ways of doing things.

More efficient, more capacity

but then the old saying comes into use, "if it aint broke don't fix it"

 

[rww100]

Thing is though, that they are broke (take it as many ways as you like :P).

Several of them run around the network with faults because there is a shortage of units. All of the trains used to be formed of two units coupled together (6 cars in total), but now after various accidents and units being transferred to the south etc, they're mainly just used as single 3 car sets, which doesn't provide enough capacity, even at times during the day, never mind peak times. The capacity was reduced even further a couple of years ago with the refurbishments which meant that 2+3 seating was replaced by 2+2 and space for bikes and wheelchairs was increased.

As I've already mentioned, the lease on the 507s/508s expires in 4-5 years and I can't really imagine it being renewed.

 

[ukrob]

but then the old saying comes into use, "if it aint broke don't fix it"

It doesn't in this case because it IS 'broke'.

 

[starrymarkb]

The trains have run on there for ages now...why suddenly change then for different styles

For about 30 years now... Given that most trains are built to last about 30-40 years they are due replacement

507s/508s are identical to the 313/4/5s in terms of bodyshell/bogies. The whole PEP based series was built with tight tunnels (313s for the Northern City and 507s for the Merseyrail network*)


*508s were built for the Southern - who didn't much like having a standard spec unit foisted on them - hence the 455 was invented to satisfy the Southern (who liked to do things their way - don't you love BR politics!)

 

[rww100]

508s were built for the Southern - who didn't much like having a standard spec unit foisted on them - hence the 455 was invented to satisfy the Southern (who liked to do things their way - don't you love BR politics!)

The 508s were actually built specifically for the Merseyrail Wirral Line, but as they were being buit, BR decided that they would be used initially to replace much older 4 Sub stock than the 503s which worked the Wirral Line at the time, and did not require replacement as urgently.

Once the 455s had been developed and built, then the 508s could be transferred to their originally planned home, albeit with one car removed and placed into a 455 set instead.

Although many in the south disliked the 508s, this was not the reason for the introduction of the 455s. The life of the 4 Subs had expired and the 508s were only used down south as a temporary measure.

 

[yorksrob]

For about 30 years now... Given that most trains are built to last about 30-40 years they are due replacement

507s/508s are identical to the 313/4/5s in terms of bodyshell/bogies. The whole PEP based series was built with tight tunnels (313s for the Northern City and 507s for the Merseyrail network*)


*508s were built for the Southern - who didn't much like having a standard spec unit foisted on them - hence the 455 was invented to satisfy the Southern (who liked to do things their way - don't you love BR politics!)

With a good refurbishment they could probably get another 15 years out of them. They're not my favourite trains but they're fairly decent. This might be the better option as with continuing passenger growth and limited funds, new trains could be used to meet the increase.

(Or maybe thats my Southern Region instinct showing through )

 

[507 001]

With a good refurbishment they could probably get another 15 years out of them. They're not my favourite trains but they're fairly decent. This might be the better option as with continuing passenger growth and limited funds, new trains could be used to meet the increase.

(Or maybe thats my Southern Region instinct showing through )

they've already been refurbished extensively back in 2004, that was to get another ten years out of them then because they were knackered then, I cant see Merseyrail paying out for it to be done again.

and as for the light rail idea, well thats just ridiculous, as has already been said, they would be completely unsuitable for the longer runs, especially if the chester line linespeed is upped to 75 like they have been talking about for a while now.

 

[Skie]

With a good refurb you could keep anything going indefinitely, but the cost escalates dramatically outside of the designed lifespan. There are no new parts for these trains being made, so either other units have to be cannibalized (less trains in revenue service and you will eventually run out) or you have to get new things manufactured to spec (ridiculously expensive).

Siemens have just announced a new Desiro 'city' unit that is much lighter and with a smaller bogey. Something like that would be ideal for the loop as well as the longer distances on the network.

 

[yorksrob]

With a good refurb you could keep anything going indefinitely, but the cost escalates dramatically outside of the designed lifespan. There are no new parts for these trains being made, so either other units have to be cannibalized (less trains in revenue service and you will eventually run out) or you have to get new things manufactured to spec (ridiculously expensive).

Siemens have just announced a new Desiro 'city' unit that is much lighter and with a smaller bogey. Something like that would be ideal for the loop as well as the longer distances on the network.

Thats certainly true to an extent - though it is still a large fleet and there must be many shared components with the various EMU's and DMU's built at the same time. On the other hand, If they really are knackered after 30 years (including refurbishment) perhaps it's time they did go. I suspect we may be making do and mending for a while bearing in mind the economic situation though.

 

[507 001]

Thats certainly true to an extent - though it is still a large fleet and there must be many shared components with the various EMU's and DMU's built at the same time. On the other hand, If they really are knackered after 30 years (including refurbishment) perhaps it's time they did go. I suspect we may be making do and mending for a while bearing in mind the economic situation though.

the problem with that is that the majority of the units built at the same time are pretty much exactly the same, therefore there are no spares available for them.

And yes, believe me, they are really knackered. I do love them though.

and this city desiro, I can see why they have chosen now to announce it, with the 313's, 314's, 315's 507's, 508's and to some extent 150 and 142/3/4 needing replacing in the not too distant future (obviously if a diesel version where to be produced.

 

[MCR247]

Well I doubt a City Desiro could be used on MerseyRail

 

[507 001]

Well I doubt a City Desiro could be used on MerseyRail

why?

 

[ukrob]

Well I doubt a City Desiro could be used on MerseyRail

That is an extremely bold statement to make. Going to back it up?

 

[MCR247]

Because I thought that trains used on Merseyrail had to be a certain size to fit the tunnels and the Desiro City dosent have a door at the front that can be used in emergencys like 378s and 507s & 508s

 

[mackenzie_blu]

How about why use a diesel on an electrified railway? As well as the tunnel issues and their guade which is as bad as Smithfield if not worse.

 

[ukrob]

Because I thought that trains used on Merseyrail had to be a certain size to fit the tunnels and the Desiro City dosent have a door at the front that can be used in emergencys like 378s and 507s & 508s

As opposed to the Desiro which has with and without options? Do you have technical specs of all the options are available in order to rule them out due to 'size'?

How about why use a diesel on an electrified railway? As well as the tunnel issues and their guade which is as bad as Smithfield if not worse.

Eh?

 

[507 001]

Because I thought that trains used on Merseyrail had to be a certain size to fit the tunnels and the Desiro City dosent have a door at the front that can be used in emergencys like 378s and 507s & 508s

I'm sure that whatever has been announced is only a base model and there will be optional extras such as front gangways.

and I'm sure that you could say the same about a 378, I'm sure they are bigger than a 508?

How about why use a diesel on an electrified railway?

nobody said they would?
and yes some of the grades are pretty bad but no more than 1 in 30 AFAIK

 

[clagmonster]

In the short term, would it not make sense to send the 508s being displaced from South Eastern and the Watford DC line to provide more spares and allow some more doubling up. The DC line has 3, and the South Eastern a dozen, so that would be 15 units added to the fleet. Also, I think there are still some 313s from North London which aren't planned to be transferred to Hornsey, could they help.

 

[rww100]

That would definitely make sense, but Merseyrail perhaps don't want them seeing that they have been refurbished to different specifications etc.

It would make a really nice change and I would quite like to see them up here if there's currently enough space for them at Birkenhead or Kirkdale.

 

[507 001]

There is a plan to bring our 508's back and there have been whispers of some 313's too. they would probably go via wabtec for refurb and C4 overhall

there is no room at kirkdale or birkenhead, however, southport has quite a bi of room in the form of disused electrified sidings and there is also birkenhead central.

 

[rww100]

Surely it would be better just to put them on without refurbs, and just a good clean and vinyl branding, based on the time taken to do refurbishments, especially if new stock is going to be ordered soon anyway as anything transferred up here, as well as the existing stock will be made redundant within the not too distant future if that is the case.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Can things be stored safely at Southport though as most merseybased graffiti occurs there doesnt it?

 

[First class]

I will give my opinion on the subject again:

Merseyrail is aware and looking at these "spare" 508s. However, I understand that they are being looked at for parts and spares rather than enhanced capacity.

The constant year for renewal of rolling stock being floated around depots/messrooms etc seems to be 2014. Whether there is any truth in this is questionable, although I do think it is a believable and realistic date, that's just over 4 years to source a replacement.

Now, with the electrification of Liverpool-Manchester via Earlestown looming, and the class 319s being earmarked for the route- this could create an interesting opportunity for Merseyrail. Expansion electrification projects to Wrexham, Wigan Wallgate and Preston have all been mooted by Merseyrail/Merseytravel and the suggestion was to get dual voltage units to run DC around the current network with AC OHE on the newly expanded routes. Perhaps Merseyrail could look to really expand their network much further afield?

Class 378 units are a good viable replacement, but Network Rail are interested in a concept that would allow the vehicles to go onto the streets in the city centre. Perhaps Merseyrail will get a variation of units?