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Merseyrail James St Fatality - Guard Questioned!!!???

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First class

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Case law says her actions/behaviour/state does not provide a defence.

Longbottom, R v (1849) pre-SCJA 1873
[Gross negligence manslaughter - contributory negligence not a bar to conviction]
Defendant negligently drove a gig along a public thoroughfare in the evening at a rapid pace, and down a shaded hill killing a pedestrian.

Held: Even though deceased was himself guilty of great negligence in persisting in walking in the middle of such a road, though he was quite deaf, and thereby contributed to his own death, Defendant was liable.

Guilty of manslaughter

I believe a "gig" is some sort of horse-drawn cart.



It has been "suggested" the guard may not have carried out his duties properly. The CPS will have decided to pursue this, not BTP.
 
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ralphchadkirk

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The BTP wouldn't have charged GNM if they don't think the guard is to blame. Unfortunately, 185, even guards have to answer to the rule of law, as much as you may want them to be immune.
 

ANorthernGuard

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The BTP wouldn't have charged GNM if they don't think the guard is to blame. Unfortunately, 185, even guards have to answer to the rule of law, as much as you may want them to be immune.

As a guard myself (obviously lol) we all have to adhere to the rules and regs and if we foolishly decide not to follow them something like this can be the result, I have sympathy for the guard but thy must have plenty of evidence for the guard to be charged

 

34D

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up until relatively recently it was perfectly normal to see trains leaving with the guards door open (and the guard leaning out), until the train reached the tunnel mouth.

Does this happen anywhere any more? Possibly with 150/1s? The last time I was on 38 stock on LU (some tour, jubilee line one I think) the guard in the rear coach opened the single door to pass through stations (as they always used to do) so this is presumably still in their rule book for such trains.
 

175001

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Does this happen anywhere any more? Possibly with 150/1s?
If a 150/1 local door is left open when departing a station, it becomes a door open in traffic, and also goes against the door operating procedure.

That's why you are supposed to step on to the train, close your local door, and THEN give two on the buzzer.
 

amcluesent

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he guard failed to do the correct door procedure for at least 10 stops previously

That doesn't sound too clever, I suppose there will be ample CCTV to be used as evidence.

Would crew be tested for substance abuse after such as incident?
 

ANorthernGuard

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That doesn't sound too clever, I suppose there will be ample CCTV to be used as evidence.

Would crew be tested for substance abuse after such as incident?

Yep always mediscreened after an incident like this, for me complacency seems to be the guards crime, too easy done


 

Matt Taylor

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I'm not sure how CCTV would pick up whether he gave the driver two bells at any of the previous stations to this incident, although it would show whether he looked before closing the doors and looked again to check the doors were clear, it would also show if the local door was open when the train started moving although that is of no relevance to passenger safety.

I had a similar situation just last night on my last train before going home, but this incident reinforces the reasons why you don't give the bells until you are satisfied that everyone is in a position of safety. I would rather fill out a delay report than a witness statement.
 

ANorthernGuard

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I'm not sure how CCTV would pick up whether he gave the driver two bells at any of the previous stations to this incident, although it would show whether he looked before closing the doors and looked again to check the doors were clear, it would also show if the local door was open when the train started moving although that is of no relevance to passenger safety.

I had a similar situation just last night on my last train before going home, but this incident reinforces the reasons why you don't give the bells until you are satisfied that everyone is in a position of safety. I would rather fill out a delay report than a witness statement.

Yep safety FIRST....... ALWAYS

 

Anon Mouse

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That doesn't sound too clever, I suppose there will be ample CCTV to be used as evidence.

Would crew be tested for substance abuse after such as incident?

I fail to see how they can use CCTV showing the Guard acting against the rule book at previous stations when the tragic incident happened at a station where seemingly he followed procedure.

As a Guard myself, I have found this incident a little scary, as at the station where the incident happened he seemed to do everything correctly yet he is on a manslaughter charge. Its happenede to me many times where somebody has been fooling about or standing too near to the train to see a freind off and when I have asked them to move I've been told to f**k off or been given the two finger salute and in the case of somebody missing the train and standing pressing the button spitting at me. In that case for my personal safety I slammed the window up to avoid any spit or the possible following fist from hitting me. I have been assured that providing, I do everything correctly and the worst happens I will be fine. This latest case adds a few worries.
 

185

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Only in this godforsaken country would this kind of thing get to a criminal court.

Last ones to go to jail are those that 'pretend' to manage the railway.
 

Matt Taylor

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I disagree. Guards have a duty with regards to safety, and safety is precisely the reason that the RMT etc go on about protecting our jobs. An innocent mistake is one thing, but if the CCTV evidence shows a consistently poor method of working (slapdash if you will) then the guard has to take the consequences that go with his actions. People were very quick to hang Schettino when the Costa Concordia went down and this may just be a variation on that theme (on a much smaller scale of course). We are responsible for people's lives, and we must take that responsibility seriously.

That said, I do believe there is a case for a rule book change when it comes to looking out onto the platform as the train departs or perhaps having more despatch staff.
 

ANorthernGuard

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We sign to say we do our job correctly, it is our responsibility and if it is our fault then we take the blame. Nature of the job.

With otmr and cctv monitoring us there isn't really any excuse
 

ralphchadkirk

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Only in this godforsaken country would this kind of thing get to a criminal court.

Why? If the charge is proven the the guard has been so negligent that it goes beyond a matter of composition and should be criminal. If he is found not guilty then he's done nothing wrong. As much as you may want guards to be above the rule of law they are not, and if they have caused the death of someone then they should be prosecuted - the same as the parents in R v Edwards and the anaesthetist in R v Adamako.
 

ukrob

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Only in this godforsaken country would this kind of thing get to a criminal court.

Last ones to go to jail are those that 'pretend' to manage the railway.

The second story today you seem to know the facts of and have seen the evidence for.

The CPS wouldn't take it forward if they knew he did nothing wrong.
 

Greeny

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I think I'd agree with ralphchadkirk and ukrob. The CPS must think that there is sufficient evedence to bring charges. However, saying that I don't think too much expressing of opinions of the Guards actions on a Forum like this is a good idea. Everybody is entitled to a fair hearing.

G.
 

jon0844

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It seems to me that the reason guards and drivers are paid well is precisely because of the responsibility they accept as part of doing the job.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I disagree. Guards have a duty with regards to safety, and safety is precisely the reason that the RMT etc go on about protecting our jobs. An innocent mistake is one thing, but if the CCTV evidence shows a consistently poor method of working (slapdash if you will) then the guard has to take the consequences that go with his actions. People were very quick to hang Schettino when the Costa Concordia went down and this may just be a variation on that theme (on a much smaller scale of course). We are responsible for people's lives, and we must take that responsibility seriously.

That said, I do believe there is a case for a rule book change when it comes to looking out onto the platform as the train departs or perhaps having more despatch staff.

I think I'd agree with ralphchadkirk and ukrob. The CPS must think that there is sufficient evedence to bring charges. However, saying that I don't think too much expressing of opinions of the Guards actions on a Forum like this is a good idea. Everybody is entitled to a fair hearing.

G.


Indeed. I do not agree with the sentiments that the Guard must be innocent and shouldn't be prosecuted.

‎"Gross Negligence Manslaughter" is what the Guard has been charged with. This is where the death is a result of a grossly negligent (though otherwise lawful) act or omission on the part of the defendant. The law in respect of this has been clarified in the case of R v Adomako (1994) where a four stage test for gross negligence manslaughter known as the Adomako Test was outlined by the House of Lords: :
a) the existence of a duty of care to the deceased;
b) a breach of that duty of care which;
c) causes (or significantly contributes) to the death of the victim; and
d) the breach should be characterised as gross negligence, and therefore a crime.
The ordinary law of negligence applies to these cases, in that those with an established duty of care, must act as a "reasonable person would do in their position". If they fail to do so they will have breached that duty. This is an objective test and will be based upon the defendant's position at the time of the breach. The defendants in such cases are often people carrying out jobs that require special skills or care, such as doctors, teachers, police or prison officers, or electricians, - or in this case the Guard - who fail to meet the standard which could be expected from a reasonable person of the same profession and cause death.In R v Bateman the Court of Criminal Appeal held that gross negligence manslaughter involved the following elements:

the defendant owed a duty to the deceased to take care;
the defendant breached this duty;
the breach caused the death of the deceased; and
the defendant's negligence was gross, that is, it showed such a disregard for the life and safety of others as to amount to a crime and deserve punishment.

Individuals have a duty to act where there is a contract. In R v Pittwood 1902, a railway crossing gatekeeper had opened the gate to let a cart pass and forgot to shut it again. Later a hay cart was struck by a train while crossing. He was convicted of manslaughter. It was argued on his behalf that he owed a duty only to his employers, the railway company, with whom he had contracted. It was held, however, that the man was paid to keep the gate shut and protect the public so had a duty to act. He hadn't kept the gates closed, and by him not doing so somebody was killed.

Now, All that waffle came from the CPS etc, but from that one can surmise that in this case they must have good evidence (CCTV?) to show that a) The Guard had a duty of care, b) He failed to do what he should have done correctly, c) as a result the girl died. Whether that is not observing correctly prior to departure, or not looking out after departure I do not know. My gut feeling is that he failed to look out properly before departure, and didn't notice that this girl was acting the fool, and therefore didn't notice she was likely to be a danger, and set the train off.

I think they key is to use your skills, knowledge, training, experience etc to judge the situation. And you can only really do that by watching people on the platform. If there are people banging on windows at their mates at 11pm and dancing around on the platform like idiots it is fairly safe to assume they are popped up and fooling around. I wouldn't dream of setting the train off in such a situation. Even if they told me to f off, at least I have done my bit and can react accordingly.

As stated, as "professionals" who are responsible for the safety of the public, the our duty of care is towards them. They may be ****ed, but sadly that is not really a defence.

I am not for one minute saying that the Guard is guilty, but there must surely be evidence to reflect the above if it has got to this stage.
 

AlexS

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Even on a heritage line like ours the last thing you're asked before you sign your ticket is 'are you willing to stand up for your actions in a court of law'. If the answer is no, you get a handshake and a polite thank you and goodbye.

It's no different to the case of the signaller at Moreton-on-Lugg. The facts are still to become clear in this case but if the guard's conduct was contributory, whether it was intentional or not, to the death of the passenger, then that's what you sign up to every time you book on for duty.

It may come as an uncomfortable reminder of the truth for some others in the grade but the thought should always be there.
 

the sniper

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Most people are being far too unbiased and reasonable in this thread! Law? Investigations? Facts we don't know? CPS? What?! No, no. I blame the bloody BTP's anti-railway agenda for the whole thing... ;)
 

Ferret

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The Court case will be very interesting to those of us in the Guard Grade. Of course (outside of what the law says) there will be those who would argue that if they deceased had not chosen to get drunk, she'd probably still be alive today, but just how do you define what can be reasonably be expected of a Guard. My fear is that it is impossible for the defendant to get a dair trial because any jury will be swayed by the emotion of the case - a young girl's tragic death.

12 laymen/women will not necessarily have experience of the unpredictability of drunks in general, and an understanding of railway procedures. Sure, the barristers in Court will attempt to explain it to them, but how does one go about that - you only have to see how many people fail RAAT tests at recruitment days to note that the railway is a complex beast.

If the Guard has been negligent he deserves to be prosecuted, but if he's merely guilty of failing to predict the unpredictable then I have serious concerns. Of course, we shall learn the full facts from the Court case and the RAIB in due course.
 

Greeny

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If the Guard has been negligent he deserves to be prosecuted, but if he's merely guilty of failing to predict the unpredictable then I have serious concerns. Of course, we shall learn the full facts from the Court case and the RAIB in due course.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Again - EVERYBODY is entitled to a fair hearing and I would hope that some of the contributers to this thread are not selected as Jury members.

G
 

IanXC

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Of course, we shall learn the full facts from the Court case and the RAIB in due course.

In cases like this will the RAIB wait until the court case is finished before publishing their report, or will they carry on as usual?
 

Ferret

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In cases like this will the RAIB wait until the court case is finished before publishing their report, or will they carry on as usual?

I suspect the RAIB will have to avoid making their final report until after the case to avoid prejudicing the trial. Normally I'd agree with this, but on this occasion, I'd say an RAIB report made by persons with serious knowledge of what happened and serious knowledge of what is expected of a Guard would actually assist due process.
 

ANorthernGuard

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Again - EVERYBODY is entitled to a fair hearing and I would hope that some of the contributers to this thread are not selected as Jury members.

G

He will get it mate, however if he found innocent (which we would all hope) he probably will be out of a job as (what I have heard they have proof of the door procedure being done incorrectly numerous times) and god forbid if Guilty, a Prison sentence and of course no job, the trouble I have with the whole scenario is when do we become responsible for our actions? when we pass out as a guard we sign to say we understand and accept the rules and regulations of our profession, if we do not follow the rules are we responsible or not? in my mind yes we are and we have to face the consequences of our actions, passing the buck will not work anymore!
 

Ferret

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I really hope that the Crown's case isn't just based on what happened at the previous stations though. The only thing that is relevant to the tragic death of the girl is what happened at the station she died at. If he dispatched correctly there, in the interests of justice he should be found not guilty. Any wrongdoing prior to the tragedy has no real bearing, unless there was wrongdoing at James Street, in which case it's legitimate for the Crown to portray the Guard as lax.

I'm afraid we shall have to wait for the trial to find out more.

a
 

michael769

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I suspect the RAIB will have to avoid making their final report until after the case to avoid prejudicing the trial. Normally I'd agree with this, but on this occasion, I'd say an RAIB report made by persons with serious knowledge of what happened and serious knowledge of what is expected of a Guard would actually assist due process.

If persons with such knowledge exists I would imagine that they will be called to give evidence in court. Certainly any documents or other evidence relevant to the trial that the RAIB have, is liable to be used in the trial.
 

amcluesent

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passing the buck will not work anymore

I'd suggest the travelling pax won't want to hear that 'the system' was to blame, 'lessons have been learned' etc if there's evidence before to Court of repeated violation of procedures.
 

Roylang

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Does this happen anywhere any more? Possibly with 150/1s? The last time I was on 38 stock on LU (some tour, jubilee line one I think) the guard in the rear coach opened the single door to pass through stations (as they always used to do) so this is presumably still in their rule book for such trains.

I was suprised to see this on Eurostar recently, we left St Pancras international with the guard stansing at an open door at the fornt of the train (coach 1?). I assumed that the train would not be able tomove with a door open these days.

Roy
 

ralphchadkirk

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I really hope that the Crown's case isn't just based on what happened at the previous stations though. The only thing that is relevant to the tragic death of the girl is what happened at the station she died at. If he dispatched correctly there, in the interests of justice he should be found not guilty. Any wrongdoing prior to the tragedy has no real bearing, unless there was wrongdoing at James Street, in which case it's legitimate for the Crown to portray the Guard as lax.

The prosecution will almost certainly bring it up to sway the jury though.
 
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