Merseyrail hidden tunnel

[Bletchleyite]

All this talk of new stock and expansion for Merseyrail brought this to mind again and I wondered if anyone in here has any information or thoughts.

Travelling from Moorfields to Liverpool Central, just before the platform at Central there is a tunnel seemingly to nowhere on the left. It is visible on the left at around 26:47 in this video:

https://youtu.be/brPh3yr_wf0?t=1600

[youtube]brPh3yr_wf0[/youtube]



I have somewhere a copy (from the national records office) of an early plan of the tunnels from around when the original tunnel was built. It shows a tunnel branching off there but not where it goes or how long it is. I have read something about an unfinished parallel tunnel to the station which was to have been a third platform?

It's not the stock interchange line (that's on the other side and is in use) nor is it the branch off to the Lime St lines being discussed (those are on the south side of Central rather than towards Moorfields).

Any ideas?

Thanks.

 

[34D]

This one? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapping_Tunnel

 

[Gareth]

Don't think I'd have ever noticed that. I think it's a small header tunnel to possibly a future platform. The plan was always that some services would go into the Wapping tunnel and I believe header tunnels between the two tunnels were actually built with the link in the 70s. South of Liverpool Central, you'll notice that the two rail lines become split level. This was to allow trains coming from the Wapping Tunnel heading towards Central to be able to cross the Hunts Cross-bound line without interference. I can only guess that what you see in the video was meant to go to a new platform for the Wapping-bound traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't think I'd have ever noticed that.

I actually noticed it years ago from a train. Did some research but found very little about it, but obviously technology is improving and the driver training video allows it to be shown very clearly.

I think it's a small header tunnel to possibly a future platform.

That had been my guess (it isn't the Wapping Tunnel header, as that's at the other end of the station; according to the old plan I have somewhere it also pre-dates the 1970s Merseyrail construction by many years). Would be interesting if anyone knows more, though, such as how far along it goes.

The plan was always that some services would go into the Wapping tunnel and I believe header tunnels between the two tunnels were actually built with the link in the 70s. South of Liverpool Central, you'll notice that the two rail lines become split level. This was to allow trains coming from the Wapping Tunnel heading towards Central to be able to cross the Hunts Cross-bound line without interference. I can only guess that what you see in the video was meant to go to a new platform for the Wapping-bound traffic.

I read in another forum that the split isn't actually for that reason, but is to do with the strength of the rock and a need not to create a weakness when tunnelling through the floor of the High Level tunnels to take them to the Low Level station. Of course that could be wrong and you right

 

[Gareth]

Header tunnels were definitely built south of the station. I was not aware that anything was done north of the station. However, that definitely looks like a tunnel and suggests it would lead to another platform the the north side of the existing ones. It would make sense for such a platform to exist for Wapping Tunnel services, as the already overcrowded island platform would simply not be able to cope on its own.

I don't know about the rock thing. I've never heard of it, though there may well be some truth in it. Whether it's true or not, the line would have to split anyway in order to allow trains from the Wapping tunnel to join the Central-bound line without interfering with the Hunts Cross-bound one. Otherwise, it would have to be a flat junction and I think that would be very undesirable considering the high frequencies that the underground system was designed for.

 

[daikilo]

All this talk of new stock and expansion for Merseyrail brought this to mind again and I wondered if anyone in here has any information or thoughts.

Travelling from Moorfields to Liverpool Central, just before the platform at Central there is a tunnel seemingly to nowhere on the left. It is visible on the left at around 26:47 in this video:

https://youtu.be/brPh3yr_wf0?t=1600

[youtube]brPh3yr_wf0[/youtube]



I have somewhere a copy (from the national records office) of an early plan of the tunnels from around when the original tunnel was built. It shows a tunnel branching off there but not where it goes or how long it is. I have read something about an unfinished parallel tunnel to the station which was to have been a third platform?

It's not the stock interchange line (that's on the other side and is in use) nor is it the branch off to the Lime St lines being discussed (those are on the south side of Central rather than towards Moorfields).

Any ideas?

Thanks.

I believe it was a loco shunt dating from the steam days. It is actually under what was the frontage of Central HL station, which is not where the Wapping tunnel would have emerged.

 

[Bevan Price]

Surely they would need some sort of access point to take out the debris when the tunnel was being bored, and also to allow the tunnel boring machinery to enter the site. Could this be one such access point ??

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Have a look here:

http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/database/index.html

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/sites.shtml

If you have a "rummage" through them you'll probably find exactly what you're looking for.

 

[Ianigsy]

I'd probably be inclined to agree with the loco spur theory although steam operation is probably so far back now it'd be interesting to know if there was any record of how Central LL was worked with steam. Trains presumably arrived from the Wirral into the left hand platform (on the video) but if they were turned around in sidings to the south (if they existed) then our tunnel is at the wrong end of the station and the wrong side of the line to be useful as a loco siding. The ideal place for a loco siding would be to the south of the platforms so the loco could back down onto arriving stock and draw into the departure platform.

Another theory- given that you wouldn't want steam locos hanging around in an enclosed space, perhaps it was used for a spare set of carriages in between peaks? Again, it's on the wrong side of the station to be convenient for the departure platform, but it would allow a rake to be shunted out of the way after the morning peak, collected by a spare loco and moved into place to form a peak extra.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe it was a loco shunt dating from the steam days. It is actually under what was the frontage of Central HL station, which is not where the Wapping tunnel would have emerged.

This sounds feasible...anyone know how far in it goes? (It isn't on the Disused Tunnels site, nor the Disused Stations one as it isn't a disused station )

 

[Taunton]

I remember it as a kid in the 1960s, seeing it in the darkness by the carriage lights and repeatedly looking to see if there was any track there - which there wasn't.

Loco shunting spur from steam days sounds the most likely, although it's in a strange place for one, off the incoming line on approach.

There were also two tracks at the south end, one was used as the reversing line but the other alongside seemed just a siding, probably from the same era.

 

[Dixie]

I was at a presentation this evening made by the engineer in charge of monitoring the contractors working on the early 1970s scheme who said that there is space for a 3rd platform at that location but it has not been taken forward yet. He implied it would be a stub and that the rock had been removed except along a line between the existing station and the 3rd platform

 

[47271]

It seems very much like that easternmost tunnel portal at Glasgow Queen Street High Level. Not a disused route ripe for reopening, but a road to nowhere...

 

[John Luxton]

i am sure there is reference to this tunnel in the old Oakwood Press Mersey Railway book. Long sine lost my copy but I think it was a carriage in steam days.

THERE was a heading just before James Street which was used for the loop this was originally constructed to form a link to docks and I think L&Y lines in the hope of freight traffic. But high levels of pax traffic ruled it out.

John

 

[Dr Hoo]

In 'The Line Beneath The Liners' by John W Gahan (1983), published by Countyvise Limited there is some description of steam operation at Liverpool Central.
It is worth noting that the line originally terminated at James Street, with the extension to Central as an 'afterthought'.
Trains at Central worked on a 'turnover' basis, with an arriving locomotive detaching and moving forward into a relatively short headshunt for servicing purposes. This tunnel was subsequently extended to form a full length headshunt for electric trains, which would discharge, draw forward from the arrival platform and then drop back into the departure platform.
In steam days it appears that both sides of the island platform were used for arrivals and departures (rather like Moorgate on the GN today).
The locomotives had to drain their condensing tanks and re-water as the water would otherwise get too hot to condense the exhaust steam. So there was a lot of servicing going on. A special ventilation system existed to clear steam as well as smoke from the station area.
Once a platform had been vacated by a departing train the serviced locomotive would drop back into what is described as an 'engine loop', ready to haul a subsequent departure.
So, tentatively, the 'tunnel' in the OP may well have been part of the engine loop arrangement.
Things were almost unimaginably different back then. I wonder how many people used to catch the 0757 Liverpool Central Low Level to Paddington or the 0800 to Folkstone Harbour (for ferry to France) in 1898?

 

[Taunton]

The tunnel and island platform is notably shallow under the former Central Main Line station, which is presumably responsible for there never having been any meaningful redevelopment of such a prime central Liverpool site - foundations would be an issue.

If I am not mistaken it is under the old wide platforms 1/2 of the main station (numbers ran right to left), which were wide with a carriage road up the middle, and thus no railway tracks, or the weight of trains, were on top of the station tunnel. This would not be the case for any tunnel under the rest of the old main station, which was all tracks and narrow platforms.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Given that very little has been done with the site since the demolition of Central High Level, it is difficult to understand why expansion of the new low level station has not been undertaken. Passenger numbers on Merseyrail are expected to continue soaring and many projects abandonned in the 1970's due to the harsh economic climate might be seen in a better light today. I have to say "might" as the present government's "hard Brexit" policies are probably going to push the country back into a strong recession with little cash available for major infrastructure projects.

 

[daikilo]

I don't have track layouts to hand, but my recollection of the exits from the low level platforms would imply they were parallel with the high level platforms, and yes, they would be offset towards the river-side of the high level station. This is confirmed by the entries in the excellent "disused stations" website. Note that the entry for low level includes an OS map extract from 1955 which appears to show a short spur tunnel under the forecourt of the high-level station.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_central_ll/index.shtml

I doubt however that it would be too complex to build a raft over the low-level platforms on which other buildings could be built. Cost (or simply lack of need) may be the concern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't have track layouts to hand, but my recollection of the exits from the low level platforms would imply they were parallel with the high level platforms, and yes, they would be offset towards the river-side of the high level station. This is confirmed by the entries in the excellent "disused stations" website. Note that the entry for low level includes an OS map extract from 1955 which appears to show a short spur tunnel under the forecourt of the high-level station.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_central_ll/index.shtml

Yes, it does seem to show a very short stub in the location I was referring to - perhaps, looking at scale, less than 5m. How boring It also seems to suggest that the parallel "pre-tunnel" doesn't actually exist either.

The thing I have wondered is how much, if any, of the original subway that is also pictured there still exists, and if so where it is.

I doubt however that it would be too complex to build a raft over the low-level platforms on which other buildings could be built. Cost (or simply lack of need) may be the concern.

Indeed not, it's been done in enough places in London. The difference is that there is plenty of spare land and disused buildings to build on in Liverpool, and land is cheap - there is simply no need for it.

 

[Taunton]

Of course, just underneath the low level platform is the 1970s deeper level loop line tunnel, I believe at an angle. Be a bit of a nuisance rafting over both.

 

[daikilo]

Of course, just underneath the low level platform is the 1970s deeper level loop line tunnel, I believe at an angle. Be a bit of a nuisance rafting over both.

I believe the deep level tunnel actually runs under the old frontage to Central station.

As to what happened to the old subway and booking office (below ground but above what were the Wirral platforms, now Northern) I think it got swallowed up in the new access to the platforms. I haven't been there since the new main entrance hall was built and am having difficulty understanding the plan and photos on Google.

 

[QueensCurve]

Given that very little has been done with the site since the demolition of Central High Level, it is difficult to understand why expansion of the new low level station has not been undertaken. Passenger numbers on Merseyrail are expected to continue soaring and many projects abandonned in the 1970's due to the harsh economic climate might be seen in a better light today. I have to say "might" as the present government's "hard Brexit" policies are probably going to push the country back into a strong recession with little cash available for major infrastructure projects.

I can recall that in the 1970s The original Central Station was a car park. A similar fate to central stations in Manchester and Blackpool.

There is/was a shopping centre above the low level station and I don't know how much of the original site this occupies.

 

[daikilo]

I can recall that in the 1970s The original Central Station was a car park. A similar fate to central stations in Manchester and Blackpool.

There is/was a shopping centre above the low level station and I don't know how much of the original site this occupies.

Only part of the old Central High level was used as a car park as the Gateacre service ran from platform 4 until shortly before the works for the Northern line extension.

As far as I am aware there was never a real shopping centre above the low-level platforms as such, although there is a booking office and gateline at approximately ground level above the western approach to the northern line platforms. There was a plan for a huge "village" including shops, offices, flats, hotel etc. It never got built.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can recall that in the 1970s The original Central Station was a car park. A similar fate to central stations in Manchester and Blackpool.

There is/was a shopping centre above the low level station and I don't know how much of the original site this occupies.

There still is, but it's not above much of the platforms (part of the ticket office etc is, though). The rest of it is still a car park and has a few other industrial type buildings on it. You can get a good view of it on Google Maps or Bing Maps.

 

[8A Rail]

......... As far as I am aware there was never a real shopping centre above the low-level platforms as such, although there is a booking office and gateline at approximately ground level above the western approach to the northern line platforms. There was a plan for a huge "village" including shops, offices, flats, hotel etc. It never got built.

There is a part shopping centre on the level comprising a number of shops. As for the "Village", you referring to this -
http://www.yourmovemagazine.com/whats-happening-at-liverpools-central-village/7044
Last update Jan 2016.
http://www.futureliverpool.com/culture/takepart/is-central-village-dead/

Certainly nothing going on at the moment.

 

[Taunton]

As far as I recall (it was quite a while ago) there was a cross passage underneath the main station concourse which had a booking office let into the wall (I never used this I don't think, always having a return from the Wirral) and forming a footbridge across the departure end of the island platform, with a staircase down to it. The steps down to this passage were, at one end, by platforms 5/6 in the main station, and at the other end coming from the street by a ramped approach.

This long passage had a large overhead coloured light unit which could display three colours horizontally for the next train. Here's one for the old memory. I think it was Green for West Kirby, Red for Rock Ferry, and White for New Brighton. James Street had the same in the long passage approach from Dale Street. Anyone remember this?

 

[daikilo]

As far as I recall (it was quite a while ago) there was a cross passage underneath the main station concourse which had a booking office let into the wall (I never used this I don't think, always having a return from the Wirral) and forming a footbridge across the departure end of the island platform, with a staircase down to it. The steps down to this passage were, at one end, by platforms 5/6 in the main station, and at the other end coming from the street by a ramped approach.

This long passage had a large overhead coloured light unit which could display three colours horizontally for the next train. Here's one for the old memory. I think it was Green for West Kirby, Red for Rock Ferry, and White for New Brighton. James Street had the same in the long passage approach from Dale Street. Anyone remember this?

Correct about the passageway and the booking office. I believe at the northern end it turned east and came up near to platform 4 rather than 5/6. At one point there was an access to the basement of a shop from the end of the passage. The other end curved and I believe had two exits of which one was only open in the peaks.

You may be right about the lights, in which case they would have been opposite the booking office. There were gates at the bottom of the stairs down to the platform which were closed when a train was due to depart.

 

[Skie]

The OS maps have a little bit more detail. Right under the word station you can see it.

https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/53.4044401808,-2.9800339764,17

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OS maps have a little bit more detail. Right under the word station you can see it.

https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/53.4044401808,-2.9800339764,17

So you can...that answers that, then!

I guess the "header tunnel" was something proposed in the original construction but not actually built, then. I'll now stop claiming it exists
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I recall (it was quite a while ago) there was a cross passage underneath the main station concourse which had a booking office let into the wall (I never used this I don't think, always having a return from the Wirral) and forming a footbridge across the departure end of the island platform, with a staircase down to it.

I have a feeling you can still see a bricked up remnant of that if you look up at that end of the station...I wonder if there's anything behind the bricking-up or if it's just filled in.

 

[Taunton]

Although at the opposite end of the platform, from those old steps down it was very noticeable to hear the Hiss-SLAM of the automatic air-operated points at the far end which operated for each train into the reversing siding, and echoed through the station every few minutes. I believe they were installed by Westinghouse when the Mersey was electrified in 1903, and were still going strong at the end in 1977.

Looking at that OS map, I am reminded how far out beyond James Street station the loop line started, almost under the river. There must have been some reason for doing this, as it appears quite possible to have started it from just after James Street, keeping the old eastbound platform in use and avoiding much train and platform tunnelling.