MerseyRail Feet Fine

[tazzer]

Hello, I hope this is in the right place, if not, please forgive me I am new here.
I was on a Merseyrail train on Wednesday evening travelling from Aintree to Liverpool Central, travelling with my girlfriend and had my feet up on her lap.

I was prompted by a Bylaw enforcement agent for my ticket and then was told I was in breach of byway 6 (8) and my details were taken and I was asked to why my feet were up to which I replied "No Comment". the pair of officers both had body cameras on, which we supposedly recording.

I was given no warning or benefit of the doubt but instead told I would receive paperwork in the post. Today I received an out of court settlement stating I should pay a fine of 60 pounds. I contacted Merseyrail on twitter asking why they have adopted such a confrontational approach and if it was a regularly contested fine and if I could have the footage from the bylaw enforcement officers but was told they cannot give CCTV to members of the public.

I was wondering if anyone else has been given such a fine or if anyone has gone through the option of seeing it out at the magistrate's courts.

 

[londonbridge]

I was assuming they were doing you for having your feet on the seat, and was going to suggest appealing based on the fact your feet were on your girlfriends lap and NOT on the seat. I've just looked at the byelaws and 6 (8) says:

"No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway".

I would still appeal and let it go to court if necessary, who the hell are Merseryrail to rule that having your feet on another persons lap is willfully interfering with their comfort if the other person states that they are happy and cmfortable with the situation?

 

[tazzer]

I was assuming they were doing you for having your feet on the seat, and was going to suggest appealing based on the fact your feet were on your girlfriends lap and NOT on the seat. I've just looked at the byelaws and 6 (8) says:

"No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway".

I would still appeal and let it go to court if necessary, who the hell are Merseryrail to rule that having your feet on another persons lap is willfully interfering with their comfort if the other person states that they are happy and cmfortable with the situation?

My only fear with the appeal process is it may prove costly with court costs etc etc which may potentially vastly out shadow the option of taking the mear 60 pound fine.

 

[gray1404]

You are indeed entitled to the CCTV and should make a subject Access request. Merseyrail do not adhere to the GDPR correctly and present additional barriers to those trying to access their data. Such as insisting it must be in their form and they ask for more data and ID then is required. However you are entitled to a copy of any footage from both the train and their body cams.

Having your feet on your girlfriends lap is fine. I'm sure she will attend court to say she encouraged this. I could see a case like this making.a total show of Merseyrail and them looking pathetic in the media.

The problem would only arise if your feet were on the seat or the seat frame. You can always reply the letter stating the situation and that any court action will be defended with witnesses being called.

 

[hkstudent]

You are indeed entitled to the CCTV and should make a subject Access request. Merseyrail do not adhere to the GDPR correctly and present additional barriers to those trying to access their data. Such as insisting it must be in their form and they ask for more data and ID then is required. However you are entitled to a copy of any footage from both the train and their body cams.

Having your feet on your girlfriends lap is fine. I'm sure she will attend court to say she encouraged this. I could see a case like this making.a total show of Merseyrail and them looking pathetic in the media.

The problem would only arise if your feet were on the seat or the seat frame. You can always reply the letter stating the situation and that any court action will be defended with witnesses being called.

It may also be good for OP to get a city / borough councillor be involved if Merseyrail is still very confortational in their second reply. It may help avoiding the hassale in going to court.

 

[tazzer]

You are indeed entitled to the CCTV and should make a subject Access request. Merseyrail do not adhere to the GDPR correctly and present additional barriers to those trying to access their data. Such as insisting it must be in their form and they ask for more data and ID then is required. However you are entitled to a copy of any footage from both the train and their body cams.

Having your feet on your girlfriends lap is fine. I'm sure she will attend court to say she encouraged this. I could see a case like this making.a total show of Merseyrail and them looking pathetic in the media.

The problem would only arise if your feet were on the seat or the seat frame. You can always reply the letter stating the situation and that any court action will be defended with witnesses being called.

Very interesting, I shall have to contact Merseyrail again regarding the bodycam footage and think I will contest the fine, (so far I've only corresponded with their twitter account but will look to contest the fine with their "prosecution department"). on twitter they said; "we cannot send members of the public any CCTV footage I'm afraid for data protection purposes. If you wish for this to be viewed by a member of the management team, you would need to make a formal complaint about the member of staff who fined you"

 

[mikeg]

Their comment on cctv and data protection is utter wibble. You have a right to request cctv of yourself under that very legislation.

 

[Haywain]

The OP should be aware that contesting this may, ultimately, cost more than the £60 and involve significant amounts of hassle. But that is the OP’s choice.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, I hope this is in the right place, if not, please forgive me I am new here.
I was on a Merseyrail train on Wednesday evening travelling from Aintree to Liverpool Central, travelling with my girlfriend and had my feet up on her lap.

I was prompted by a Bylaw enforcement agent for my ticket and then was told I was in breach of byway 6 (8) and my details were taken and I was asked to why my feet were up to which I replied "No Comment". the pair of officers both had body cameras on, which we supposedly recording.

I was given no warning or benefit of the doubt but instead told I would receive paperwork in the post. Today I received an out of court settlement stating I should pay a fine of 60 pounds. I contacted Merseyrail on twitter asking why they have adopted such a confrontational approach and if it was a regularly contested fine and if I could have the footage from the bylaw enforcement officers but was told they cannot give CCTV to members of the public.

I was wondering if anyone else has been given such a fine or if anyone has gone through the option of seeing it out at the magistrate's courts.

another recent one for you to mull over on this topic (or similar)
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fixed-penalty-for-feet-on-seats-metal-frame.200424/

 

[greyman42]

Their comment on cctv and data protection is utter wibble. You have a right to request cctv of yourself under that very legislation.

How do Merseyrail get away with telling blatant lies. Is there not a body such as the Ombudsman who should be investigating this sort of behaviour?

 

[Vespa]

If your feet is on your girlfriend's lap and she's fine with it, the CCTV footage should show this, call their bluff byvrequest a subject access to the footage, if you use the right wordings and know what you're talking about, they may well cancel the fine rather than risk perjury in court.

IF however you have put your feet on the seat itself, you have no sympathy from me, shoes and trainers steps in and picks up dirt, dog poo, wee, spit even sick, picking it up and transferring it to the seat, I'm totally against that and consider it disrespectful to other people who will sitting on that pile of bacteria and dirt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do Merseyrail get away with telling blatant lies. Is there not a body such as the Ombudsman who should be investigating this sort of behaviour?

If you actually want to report breaches of GDPR, the ICO are the place to do it.

 

[gray1404]

What the likes of Merseyrail rely on is people being so afraid that they might take something to Court, that it is just easier to pay the £60 for an easy life. Even though Merseyrail have no basis for asking for it. They actually had no basis for obtaining your personal data in the first place given an offence hadn't been committed. Imagine how many time's per week they get away with this.

The letter you have received from them is merely a bully boy attempt at intimidating. In other words, it is an Invoice, NOT a fine. Merseyrail cannot issue fines. It is an invoice or shall we say Out of Court Settlement in this case. If you don't pay their invoice then they will need to make a separate decision if this matter should go to Court or not. At that point a person will look at all the available "evidence" before making a decision. At this point it sounds like a standard letter has been sent once you've obtained your details. I doubt anyone has even looked at the situation in detail.

They really will look so pathetic in Court once the CCTV is shown and their rent a thugs are cross examined. "What part of the seat were the gentleman's feet placed on Sir?" "Errrm, I dunno. They were on the girl's lap like. Not the seat."

I know that the press will enjoy reporting this story as it will really show Merseyrail up and make a point that they really need to start dealing with the real problems on their network rather then looking for easy pickings. I would simply do the following:

1. Respond to Merseyrail stating very clearly that no offence has been committed. You feet were not on any part of the seat or seat frame. Your feet were on your partner's lap with her full consent and this is not an offence. Any charges will be rigorously defended and you shall both be attending to give evidence as well as seeking to recover any costs you incur.

2. Make an application under the GDPR for all video footage obtained of yourself while you were on the train. State clearly that this is includes footage from personal body cameras of all member's of staff and on train CCTV. It would also be a good idea to have your girlfriend make the exact same request for any footage of her. In your case I would also request copies of all notes made at the time by their officers about this case that concern you and copies of any documents held on any of their other records in relation to this case.

This needs to be done promptly as CCTV records are not always retained too long.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I've just looked at the byelaws and 6 (8) says:

"No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway

Before we get too gung-ho, the byelaw as quoted does not seem to include a rider about 'other than with their consent'. So even if the OP's girlfriend is happy to testify that the OP's feet were not interfering with her comfort or convenience, it would be open to the company to argue that objectively feet in a lap are uncomfortable for whoever owns the lap.

Would Merseyrail take this line? I've no idea. But we shouldn't be giving the OP the idea that all they need to do is be firm, and Merseyrail will back off.

As always, the quick and easy way to resolve this matter is to pay the £60. If you want to fight your corner, you might win - but that will involve time and effort. Or you might lose - which will also involve time and effort, and more likely than not the payment of a fine and court costs which will probably add up to a few hundred pounds i.e. more than £60.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As always, the quick and easy way to resolve this matter is to pay the £60. If you want to fight your corner, you might win - but that will involve time and effort. Or you might lose - which will also involve time and effort, and more likely than not the payment of a fine and court costs which will probably add up to a few hundred pounds i.e. more than £60.

And if you're on Merseyrail bear in mind that their policy is very clearly "feet go on the floor only", regardless of any potential mitigations. Even without a legal remedy they are entitled to this policy as a business.

 

[Ducatist4]

To be fair they are not going to release CCTV footage to some random person on twitter. You'll need to prove who you are first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair they are not going to release CCTV footage to some random person on twitter. You'll need to prove who you are first.

The answer was incorrect, though. The correct answer was to state what department in Merseyrail to contact to make a Subject Access Request and what information is required to do so. To state that they do not release CCTV footage to the subject of it is potentially breaking the law and should be reported to the ICO. They must by law have a SAR process.

 

[gray1404]

Yes and Merseyrail rely on people thinking it is easier to pay £60. It is a total try on! Con!

It is not an offence to place the feet on the lap of another person because that is not the seat or seat frame. Merseyrail are the one's who are out of order here. This is very simple. No offence has been committed. Period. They had no basis for taking the OP's details.

There has been a Court case in Chester some time back when someone did have their feet on the seat in fact. The passenger won in Court! Train companies do NOT always win their cases! I object to fear being used as a way to bully innocent people.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Merseyrail's (very well tested) legal position is that by using Byelaw 6(8) - the person who feels their comfort or convenience has been compromised etc can be the actual inspector/Officer, or any other party. There doesn't actually have to be intent.

I'd arguably feel uncomfortable if a male had his legs sprawled across a bay of seats, and resting on a female opposite. Especially on a relatively small commuter train stopping frequently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW Merseyrail have stated they would rather be able to impose something similar to the Penalty Fare for this sort of matter, but there is no mechanism for them to do so.

I can't say I'd object if they did. Feet on the seats or playing music out loud, 20 quid, evidence by bodycam with audio recording (switched on as needed). Would seem a fair extension of the PF system.

 

[Fare-Cop]

To be fair they are not going to release CCTV footage to some random person on twitter. You'll need to prove who you are first.

If the OP contests this and if Merseyrail intend to rely on BWV footage in any Byelaw Prosecution, then that footage should be made available to the OP under the Criminal Investigation & Procedure Act (1996) anyway

The OP should be aware that contesting this may, ultimately, cost more than the £60 and involve significant amounts of hassle. But that is the OP’s choice.

I agree, but as Haywain says, the OP has the option of paying the £60 and then making a formal complaint

Merseyrail's (very well tested) legal position is that by using Byelaw 6(8) - the person who feels their comfort or convenience has been compromised etc can be the actual inspector/Officer, or any other party. There doesn't actually have to be intent.

I'd arguably feel uncomfortable if a male had his legs sprawled across a bay of seats, and resting on a female opposite. Especially on a relatively small commuter train stopping frequently.

Absolutely correct, many forget that the legislation states 'the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway'

.

 

[gray1404]

I totally agree and there is a culture in Merseyrail when a customer complains that customer relations promise an investigation, then they respond saying "the Manager sees no problem with the behavior of the staff" then they apologise for how you the customer felt. No failure to uphold complaints and zero assurances of change.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I agree with some of the arguments here but having discussed Merseyrail's feet policy on another thread, it would be my advice to anyone using their services to keep FEET ON THE FLOOR. They seem to be very ruthless about this and the topic has made the news in the Liverpool Echo on a few occasions in the last few years. I only use Merseyrail services every now again but every train I've been on has had a revenue protection officer on-board in comparison to other TOCs where you maybe see the odd RPO once in a while. People really need to be wise to this to ensure they don't get caught out.

CJ

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regards to feet on seats/seat frames, though, the actual seats are very poorly designed in having that "frame" bit that does look ideal for putting your foot on (I'm really not quite sure why it's there as all it does is collect muck - an open frame would have been just as effective to support the seats and would have avoided the issue). The best way to avoid ASB like feet on seats is to design it out by not having places to put feet (other than the floor) and having airline and longitudinal seating where it's physically impossible.

 

[WesternLancer]

With regards to feet on seats/seat frames, though, the actual seats are very poorly designed in having that "frame" bit that does look ideal for putting your foot on (I'm really not quite sure why it's there as all it does is collect muck - an open frame would have been just as effective to support the seats and would have avoided the issue). The best way to avoid ASB like feet on seats is to design it out by not having places to put feet (other than the floor) and having airline and longitudinal seating where it's physically impossible.

"The best way to avoid ASB like feet on seats is to design it out by not having places to put feet (other than the floor) and having airline and longitudinal seating where it's physically impossible." Helps but not impossible - regularly see people sit in pair of airline seats, back resting against window or carriage wall, feet up on seat next to them...

 

[Djgr]

Or for people simply to have respect for other passengers, remembering that the world does not revolve around them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or for people simply to have respect for other passengers, remembering that the world does not revolve around them.

Yes, but you aren't going to change that any more than that you're going to stop all other crime tomorrow. So it's better to design environments for people such that crime is naturally reduced or at least the effect of it is reduced.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, but you aren't going to change that any more than that you're going to stop all other crime tomorrow. So it's better to design environments for people such that crime is naturally reduced or at least the effect of it is reduced.

I think the only way the problem could be completely eliminated would be to do away with seats completely. Until then, enforcement is a suitable approach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the only way the problem could be completely eliminated would be to do away with seats completely. Until then, enforcement is a suitable approach.

A combination of both approaches is the best way to do it. The most stupid thing, as I said, is that the Merseyrail seats have a sort of base which is just *asking* to have feet placed on it, and which not everyone would even consider part of the seat with regard to signage which originally stated "keep your feet off the seats" (but is now more specific). That base does not need to exist. It doesn't on the Stadlers (which also have more airline seating), and I expect that there will accordingly be a reduction in income from these "fines" as a result.

 

[Kite159]

I think the only way the problem could be completely eliminated would be to do away with seats completely. Until then, enforcement is a suitable approach.

Or fully longitudinal seating, with material underneath the armrests to prevent someone laying down with their legs underneath the armrests.

Won't stop those who will try to lie flat across the either aisle, resting their feet on the seat opposite.

Or to be even more evil, all airline seating (similar to a Merseytravel 142) but with fixed armrests so the kids have to sit upright