Merseyrail Expansion

[Pyreneenguy]

One would naturally like to think that the new stock would fuel some of the ( many) expansion projects for Merseyrail. Whilst some, such as the outer-loop and the Burscough curves are more in the realm of pipe-dreams; others such as linking Skelmersdale to the network have solid a solid business case.

I do wonder though if the present franchise holders really have an interest in seeing their boundaries pushed a little further out. They have a neat self-contained system and expansion towards Wigan, Warrington and Wrexham would complicate matters.

As things stand, unless electrification of most, if not all the North-wests suburban network is undertaken there will a loss of quality of service to many users.

 

[Heartland]

I think expansion of the Merseyrail network may benefit Merseyside commuters.

 

[headshot119]

One would naturally like to think that the new stock would fuel some of the ( many) expansion projects for Merseyrail. Whilst some, such as the outer-loop and the Burscough curves are more in the realm of pipe-dreams; others such as linking Skelmersdale to the network have solid a solid business case.

I do wonder though if the present franchise holders really have an interest in seeing their boundaries pushed a little further out. They have a neat self-contained system and expansion towards Wigan, Warrington and Wrexham would complicate matters.

As things stand, unless electrification of most, if not all the North-wests suburban network is undertaken there will a loss of quality of service to many users.

They will never expand all the way to Wrexham, it's been talked about since before I was born, and raises it's head every now and again.

What would make sense is to electrify as far as Neston, stick in two sets of cross overs and cut the Wrexham - Bidston service back as far as there. Running a 30 minutes service from start to finish would massively grow the passenger numbers, and would allow the Wales & Borders franchise to increase the Wrexham Central - Neston frequency while still using the same number of units.

 

[sw1ller]

They will never expand all the way to Wrexham, it's been talked about since before I was born, and raises it's head every now and again.

What would make sense is to electrify as far as Neston, stick in two sets of cross overs and cut the Wrexham - Bidston service back as far as there. Running a 30 minutes service from start to finish would massively grow the passenger numbers, and would allow the Wales & Borders franchise to increase the Wrexham Central - Neston frequency while still using the same number of units.

Don't be suggesting this! 3 trips down to bidston is bad enough! I'll end up doing 6 Nestons like this! Haha

 

[Penmorfa]

What would make sense is to electrify as far as Neston, stick in two sets of cross overs and cut the Wrexham - Bidston service back as far as there. Running a 30 minutes service from start to finish would massively grow the passenger numbers, and would allow the Wales & Borders franchise to increase the Wrexham Central - Neston frequency while still using the same number of units.

The problem there is that Neston is in Cheshire West and Chester, the only station on the line that is. They have no interest in the line as it's only 'passing through' and could be seen as taking custom away from Chester to Liverpool.

Far better to have the changeover point in Shotton. This would give a connection to the Chester - Holyhead line, hopefully get some Welsh Assembly money and give a robust 30 minute service to Wrexham and Liverpool.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One would naturally like to think that the new stock would fuel some of the ( many) expansion projects for Merseyrail.

In numerical terms, how will the numbers of the new stock compare to those of the existing stock?

I ask this as the wording above supposes more of the new rolling stock for the said "(many) expansion projects"

 

[HSTEd]

With NR hating third rail extensions and relaying the Bidston line with steel sleepers to drive up the price of third rail there will be no extensions of the existing system.

A handful of track kilometres of 25kV off by itself is never going to be worth it. The cost of fitting the trains with pantographs alone would crush the scheme.

EDIT:

Advantage of neston is with the existing 13 minute journey times and a six minute turnaround [a la Ormskirk] there would only ever be one or two sets on the section at 2tph. Its a cycle time of 32 minutes.
If you can shave a couple of minutes off the journey times you might even be able to get it down so there is only one train normally on the system at once.
Which makes a minimum-cost third rail system considerably more feasible. Position your primary substation near the Bidston end as if there are two trains in the section that is where they will be. With a maximum draw of 4 508s [two doubles] totalling at only 2624kW
Even with the newer higher performance trains it is likely the maximum supply power will be only 3000kW at absolute peak, with an average peak of something less than half that.

You could engineer a total power limitation of roughly 1500kW if you had procedure that during delays where another set has not cleared the line before the next arrives that the signaller would inform the drivers who would then not use the top throttle settings. And if you just never sent a double set down there then you could get the power down to the power of one of the new units. Which is something like 750kW in all likelihood.

EDIT:
Impedance of a double track line with all the conductor rails and running rails commoned together is something like ~13mOhm/km using aluminium conductor rails. Something like 15km end to end which means even with a single substation at the Bidston end, it would only be ~0.2ohm loop resistance.
You could almost feed from a single substation if you restrict it to single units and a 2tph timetable.

What you would probably do is build four ~300kW low voltage substations using chopper rectifiers and 400V supplies.
But engineering a minimum cost Bidston-Neeston branch solution is rather off topic.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They will never expand all the way to Wrexham, it's been talked about since before I was born, and raises it's head every now and again.

What would make sense is to electrify as far as Neston, stick in two sets of cross overs and cut the Wrexham - Bidston service back as far as there. Running a 30 minutes service from start to finish would massively grow the passenger numbers, and would allow the Wales & Borders franchise to increase the Wrexham Central - Neston frequency while still using the same number of units.

There was a thread about the Wrexham to Bidston line about 3 years ago, I remember looking into whether it would be possible to build a curve from the high level platforms onto the North Wales Coast line. The idea I'd had was that Bidston to Shotton high-level would be electrified and absorbed into Merseyrail. The Wrexham service would then divert from the Bidston bound high level platform round the new curve to run to Llandudno (Junction or Town). The thinking was that although this would require more diesel units, it would mean that the handful of North Wales services requiring 150s (Borderlands, Conwy Valley, Crewe-Chester shuttles) would perhaps no longer be the awkward ginger step-child of the Wales & Borders franchise.

 

[AM9]

...
Even with the newer higher performance trains it is likely the maximum supply power will be only 3000kW at absolute peak, with an average peak of something less than half that. ...

"average peak"?

 

[AM9]

... If you can shave a couple of minutes off the journey times you might even be able to get it down so there is only one train normally on the system at once.
Which makes a minimum-cost third rail system considerably more feasible. Position your primary substation near the Bidston end as if there are two trains in the section that is where they will be. With a maximum draw of 4 508s (two doubles) totalling at only 2624kW
Even with the newer higher performance trains it is likely the maximum supply power will be only 3000kW at absolute peak, with an average peak of something less than half that.

You could engineer a total power limitation of roughly 1500kW if you had procedure that during delays where another set has not cleared the line before the next arrives that the signaller would inform the drivers who would then not use the top throttle settings. And if you just never sent a double set down there then you could get the power down to the power of one of the new units. Which is something like 750kW in all likelihood.

You could almost feed from a single substation if you restrict it to single units and a 2tph timetable.

What you would probably do is build four ~300kW low voltage substations using chopper rectifiers and 400V supplies.
But engineering a minimum cost Bidston-Neeston branch solution is rather off
You could almost feed from a single substation if you restrict it to single units and a 2tph timetable.

What you would probably do is build four ~300kW low voltage substations using chopper rectifiers and 400V supplies.
But engineering a minimum cost Bidston-Neeston branch solution is rather off topic.

With all those penny-pinching measures you might just get away with serving the current demand. The thread title "Merseyrail Expansion" implies some aspiration of longevity rather than just ticking a box called 'electrify' because it is (just) technically possible whilst ignoring any future growth. There are examples of parsimonious naïveity elswhere on metro routes where it has proven to ba a false economy almost before the concrete has set. Just because the original WCML electrification was over-egged right down to the end of sidings that were never used, it doesn't mean that traffic growth provision should be blighted forever.

 

[edwin_m]

The problem there is that Neston is in Cheshire West and Chester, the only station on the line that is. They have no interest in the line as it's only 'passing through' and could be seen as taking custom away from Chester to Liverpool.

Far better to have the changeover point in Shotton. This would give a connection to the Chester - Holyhead line, hopefully get some Welsh Assembly money and give a robust 30 minute service to Wrexham and Liverpool.

There is also a major industrial area just north of Shotton, with whatever is left of the steelworks but also numerous other sites nearby. Extending Merseyrail to Shotton and replacing Hawarden Bridge by a station a bit further north has been talked about for years, as a means of giving Merseyside workforce access to these jobs. If this ever happened (and the attitude to third rail does make it extremely difficult) the W&B service would probably also turn back at the new station, with the two overlapping for the short stretch in between.

 

[jamesst]

Probably best getting used to the most probable answer,there will be no extensions. Could see some new stations though...

 

[HSTEd]

"average peak"?

Peak in the situation where you don't have two double sets in the section at once, which can be prevented by timetabling or by having drivers take special measures.

With all those penny-pinching measures you might just get away with serving the current demand. The thread title "Merseyrail Expansion" implies some aspiration of longevity rather than just ticking a box called 'electrify' because it is (just) technically possible whilst ignoring any future growth. There are examples of parsimonious naïveity elswhere on metro routes where it has proven to ba a false economy almost before the concrete has set. Just because the original WCML electrification was over-egged right down to the end of sidings that were never used, it doesn't mean that traffic growth provision should be blighted forever.

2 of the new Merseyrail sets per hour is effectively two to three times the current train capacity on the route.
If that is not room for growth I don't know what is.

You can have 1 ~40m train per hour or you can have 2 ~60m trains per hour.
Which do you want?

 

[kieron]

Probably best getting used to the most probable answer,there will be no extensions. Could see some new stations though...

Maghull North's supposed to open in the next 18 months or so, so we probably will see some. For that matter, the Halton Curve is supposed to be upgraded in a similar time scale, although there are no plans to enable electric trains to use it.

I don't think spending £460 million on new trains which are designed to allow pantographs to be fitted make Merseytravel/LCR/whoever any more likely to spend extra money on building third rail routes than they were before.

 

[edwin_m]

Maghull North's supposed to open in the next 18 months or so, so we probably will see some. For that matter, the Halton Curve is supposed to be upgraded in a similar time scale, although there are no plans to enable electric trains to use it.

I don't think spending £460 million on new trains which are designed to allow pantographs to be fitted make Merseytravel/LCR/whoever any more likely to spend extra money on building third rail routes than they were before.

With the exception of the Bidston-Wrexham line, I believe the extensions they might reasonably consider could all be electrified at 25kV relatively easily. They would all connect to 25kV routes except Skelmersdale where the line from Wigan could be electrified and feed power to overhead line between Skelmersdale and Kirkby.

 

[frodshamfella]

I understand expansion beyond today's system is definitely being considered , next train stock will be able to take overhead and 3rd rail electric

 

[daikilo]

I understand expansion beyond today's system is definitely being considered , next train stock will be able to take overhead and 3rd rail electric

My understanding is that the Stadler stock will be equipped for 3rd rail and provisioned for OHLE, which could be as little as a lowered roof section for a pantograph.

 

[AM9]

My understanding is that the Stadler stock will be equipped for 3rd rail and provisioned for OHLE, which could be as little as a lowered roof section for a pantograph.

Visually yes, but that would also include suspension rated for a transformer with a dummy load fitted.

 

[kieron]

Merseytravel talked about expanding the network in the announcement for these trains, as well as in the Long Term Rail Strategy from 2014. This has been under consideration for a long time, though, so I don't see anything here to say how seriously they're thinking about any of it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I understand expansion beyond today's system is definitely being considered , next train stock will be able to take overhead and 3rd rail electric

Into which areas of other franchises will they go and have any comments on this matter be made by those affected franchises?

 

[Bevan Price]

Merseytravel talked about expanding the network in the announcement for these trains, as well as in the Long Term Rail Strategy from 2014. This has been under consideration for a long time, though, so I don't see anything here to say how seriously they're thinking about any of it.

Don't forget that these suggestions come from the organisation responsible for the Liverpool - Kirkby "non-tramway scheme", and could be just as "successful".

 

[frodshamfella]

Into which areas of other franchises will they go and have any comments on this matter be made by those affected franchises?

I attended a meeting at the NCRUG where someone who was in charge of engineering at Merseyrail did a presentation, from what I recall expansion beyond the current network is being considered.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I attended a meeting at the NCRUG where someone who was in charge of engineering at Merseyrail did a presentation, from what I recall expansion beyond the current network is being considered.

I appreciate what you say, but you have not answered the queryabout the names of other franchise areas said to be affected.

 

[frodshamfella]

I appreciate what you say, but you have not answered the queryabout the names of other franchise areas said to be affected.

Of course I'm not privy to details, but they do liaise with neighbour franchises regarding this, i.e. Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I appreciate what you say, but you have not answered the queryabout the names of other franchise areas said to be affected.

It's near enough only going to be Northern - no other TOC operates relevant local services.

 

[HSTEd]

Well it could potentially be Arriva Trains Wales, but that would be a strange extension.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it could potentially be Arriva Trains Wales, but that would be a strange extension.

Ah, I forgot Bidston-Wrexham - I guess that is the one exception.

 

[HSTEd]

And I very much doubt any Merseyrail extensions will actually happen - Network Rail has decreed that there is to be no more third rail and none of the potential schemes will ever work at £2m/track-km for 25kV.

 

[Chester1]

The easiest expansion would be Lime Street to Wigan NW / Warrington BQ. They are already electrified and could be opperated with the new Stadler trains. A combined fleet could be opperated by morning and evening stock switches in the Liverpool SPW / Hunts Cross area (is the junction from Hunts Cross third rail to the WCML electrified)? If not its only a few hundred metres to wire up. Alternatively the Canada Dock Branch electrification has been delayed indefinitely but if NR committed to doing it by a set date then it would provide a link to the Merseyrail network (near Bootle). I will be extremely surprised if Merseyrail ever run services with bi or tri mode diesel trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The easiest expansion would be Lime Street to Wigan NW / Warrington BQ.

I wouldn't even go that complicated.

To me an obvious one is Hunts Cross to Warrington Central, with electrification of the CLC line (it would benefit massively due to the large number of stations). Then remove the stops from Lime St-Manchester locals.

Wrexham-Bidston (at least as far as Shotton) is another reasonable one.