Merseyrail Delay Repay

[lrailadventure]

I'm hoping someone can help me wrap my head around this. On 4th January, I was travelling from Ormskirk to York with the following itinerary:

• 14:49 Ormskirk to Sandhills (arriving 15:16)

I used a break of journey (as entitled to by my ticket type) at Sandhills, before continuing my journey as follows:

• 16:25 Sandhills to Moorfields (arriving 16:28)
• 16:41 Moorfields to Liverpool Lime Street (arriving 16:43)
• 16:54 Liverpool Lime Street to York (arriving 19:05).

I made my way to the Wirral line platform at Moorfields and the trains on the departure screen were showing as "delayed". Shortly after getting to the platform, the screens changed to say services were suspended due to a signalling issue at Hamilton Square (again..) so I went back up to the Northern line platforms, got a train into Central and walked across to Lime Street, but I had already missed my connection at this point. The next service I could use was the 17:54 TPE to Hull (changing at Leeds). Through disruption from trespassers at Stalybridge that train was delayed, and I missed the connection at Leeds too, so I hopped on the next train to York, which finally ended up getting me there at 20:30 (so 1 hour & 25 minutes late).

I've applied for delay repay from Merseyrail since they started the headache of a journey and they have told me that I'm only entitled to 20% of the face value of the ticket. But I have been looking at the NRCoT and condition 33.3 says "If you arrive 60 minutes or later at your destination, you will, as a minimum, be entitled to 50% of the price paid for the relevant portion of the journey" (I had a return ticket so have quoted the relevant part). So, am I right in thinking that Merseyrail are supposed to be giving me 50% in delay repay, as opposed to the 20% they're offering? They're listed in the appendix as one of the TOCs that the NRCoT applies to.

I have asked Mersyerail this question and they've come back saying it is standard that they only offer 20% for delays over 30 minutes, but my delay is 85 minutes courtesy of them. They have also told me to take up the delays at Stalybridge with TPE, but I didn't think you could claim twice on the same ticket?

Any help knowing how much money I am actually due back would be much appreciated.

If it makes any difference - I was travelling on an off-peak return from Ormskirk to York, with a 16-25 railcard and it cost me £43.60.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The relevant guidance from Merseyrail can be found here
https://www.merseyrail.org/help-sup...y-compensation-for-single-and-return-tickets/

If your ticket involves travel on other lines, but you are delayed on our network, you may be entitled to compensation equal to 20% of the cost of your ticket price.

 

[lrailadventure]

But what about the NRCoT saying that a delay of 60 minutes will at a minimum result in 50% compensation? The NRCoT lists Merseyrail as one of the operators it applies to, so why would that condition not also apply?

 

[northwichcat]

The relevant guidance from Merseyrail can be found here
https://www.merseyrail.org/help-sup...y-compensation-for-single-and-return-tickets/

If your ticket involves travel on other lines, but you are delayed on our network, you may be entitled to compensation equal to 20% of the cost of your ticket price.

So wait if I have a single ticket valid for Bromborough to Liverpool South Parkway and the service is suspended from Birkenhead to Liverpool Central: -

If I wait until Merseyrail resume their service and arrive 35 minutes late I get a full refund.

If I instead take the service to Chester and then take the TfW service to South Parkway but still arrive 35 minutes late I get 20% back because I've left Merseyrail?

 

[JBuchananGB]

I notice that their online claim form is useless in this case, as you have to select origin and destination stations from drop down lists of Merseyrail stations, and ticket type from only those offered by Merseyrail. I suppose you are looking for £10.90 compensation. What are Merseyrail offering you? 20% of £43.60?

 

[Djgr]

I'm hoping someone can help me wrap my head around this. On 4th January, I was travelling from Ormskirk to York with the following itinerary:

• 14:49 Ormskirk to Sandhills (arriving 15:16)

I used a break of journey (as entitled to by my ticket type) at Sandhills, before continuing my journey as follows:

• 16:25 Sandhills to Moorfields (arriving 16:28)
• 16:41 Moorfields to Liverpool Lime Street (arriving 16:43)
• 16:54 Liverpool Lime Street to York (arriving 19:05).

I made my way to the Wirral line platform at Moorfields and the trains on the departure screen were showing as "delayed". Shortly after getting to the platform, the screens changed to say services were suspended due to a signalling issue at Hamilton Square (again..) so I went back up to the Northern line platforms, got a train into Central and walked across to Lime Street, but I had already missed my connection at this point. The next service I could use was the 17:54 TPE to Hull (changing at Leeds). Through disruption from trespassers at Stalybridge that train was delayed, and I missed the connection at Leeds too, so I hopped on the next train to York, which finally ended up getting me there at 20:30 (so 1 hour & 25 minutes late).

I've applied for delay repay from Merseyrail since they started the headache of a journey and they have told me that I'm only entitled to 20% of the face value of the ticket. But I have been looking at the NRCoT and condition 33.3 says "If you arrive 60 minutes or later at your destination, you will, as a minimum, be entitled to 50% of the price paid for the relevant portion of the journey" (I had a return ticket so have quoted the relevant part). So, am I right in thinking that Merseyrail are supposed to be giving me 50% in delay repay, as opposed to the 20% they're offering? They're listed in the appendix as one of the TOCs that the NRCoT applies to.

I have asked Mersyerail this question and they've come back saying it is standard that they only offer 20% for delays over 30 minutes, but my delay is 85 minutes courtesy of them. They have also told me to take up the delays at Stalybridge with TPE, but I didn't think you could claim twice on the same ticket?

Any help knowing how much money I am actually due back would be much appreciated.

If it makes any difference - I was travelling on an off-peak return from Ormskirk to York, with a 16-25 railcard and it cost me £43.60.

As an aside you could have walked from Moorfields to Lime Street in ten minutes!

 

[mangyiscute]

I guess 50% of the relevant portion would be 25% of the overall fare, and they're offering you 20% so while technically not abiding by nrcot it's up to you whether it's worth the hassle to claim that extra 5%
Obviously most operators offer 50% off a return fare back for a 60-119 min delay, but it seems they don't have to

 

[lrailadventure]

I notice that their online claim form is useless in this case, as you have to select origin and destination stations from drop down lists of Merseyrail stations, and ticket type from only those offered by Merseyrail. I suppose you are looking for £10.90 compensation. What are Merseyrail offering you? 20% of £43.60?

Merseyrail seem to assume that everyone exclusively travels on their network, and couldn't possibly dare leave the area. It's the same with their complaints form, it assumes that you travel exclusively on their network to the extent where it asks you where you have purchased your ticket, it will only give you Merseyrail stations, but I bought my ticket at York, so I've no idea how to fill that in..

Merseyrail have offered £8.72 in delay repay, but I was assuming I'd get 50% so £21.80. It's not like I'm asking for all my money back, just in line with what every other operator would offer for an 85 minute delay (and in accordance with how I've read the NRCoT).

As an aside you could have walked from Moorfields to Lime Street in ten minutes!

I didn't know that at the time, and I'm not familiar to that area. Merseyrail's WiFi is useless at platform level, so I took the only route I knew. Also wouldn't have been much use by the time they changed the boards from delayed to services suspended, I had about 7-8 minutes before the York services departed.

 

[cool110]

Merseyrail don't do delay repay, because their franchise/concession is so long they're the only TOC that still operates under the old passenger charter system.

 

[JBuchananGB]

You quoted
If you arrive 60 minutes or later at your destination, you will, as a minimum, be entitled to 50% of the price paid for the relevant portion of the journey" (I had a return ticket so have quoted the relevant part).
I think that would be £10.90, I.e 50% of the portion of your ticket from Ormskirk to York. I think in your place I would accept the £8.72.

 

[lrailadventure]

Supposing I can't settle the part where Merseyrail's delay repay scheme is ridiculously unfair.. This is the email I got back from Merseyrail when I challenged the 50% issue...

Dear XXXXXX,



Hope you are well.



Thank you for your email about your journey on the 04/01/2024 @ 14:49,



I am contacting you in relation to your Merseyrail compensation claim under reference – XXXXXXXX



As per our terms and conditions, customers who have travelled on our Merseyrail services as part of a wider journey beyond our network who have experienced delays on our services of 30 minutes or more will be eligible for 20% of the full value of their ticket.



In your circumstances we will be issuing £8.72



In regards to the challenge of offering a 50% refund similar to other providers, this is not applicable to our services, If you wish to look into here is attached the Passenger charter for Merseyrail (https://www.merseyrail.org/about-us/passenger-charter/).

In regard to not seeing or hearing any information regarding this disruption they are made by our operational headquarters once information is available.



In regard to the rest of your journey with another train operating company please contact them directly in regards to additional delays and possible compensation.

Their final part implies that I can go to TPE and claim further compensation for the delay incurred at Stalybridge due to tresspassers.. I didn't think it was possible to claim twice on the same ticket, but could I possibly do this so my delay repay does end up closer to 50%?

I was on the 17:54 Liverpool to Leeds, and then should have been on the 19:34 to York (arriving 20:01) but ended up missing my connection and got the next service that arrived 20:30 (so 29 late).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2024 ==

You quoted
If you arrive 60 minutes or later at your destination, you will, as a minimum, be entitled to 50% of the price paid for the relevant portion of the journey" (I had a return ticket so have quoted the relevant part).
I think that would be £10.90, I.e 50% of the portion of your ticket from Ormskirk to York. I think in your place I would accept the £8.72.

But their offering is still not in accordance with the NRCoT then?

 

[Watershed]

Merseyrail are wrong. You made one journey to York despite using multiple operators; the delay in reaching York is what counts.

Whilst Merseyrail are entitled to have as stingy a delay compensation policy as they like for journeys that are delayed by less than an hour, for 60+ minute delays the NRCoT minimum comes into play and requires that they pay a minimum of 50% of the relevant portion of the ticket (i.e. 25% of the total cost, in the case of a return ticket as here).

This isn't something they can opt out of; they are a signatory to the NRCoT and are one of the Train Companies as listed in Annex A.

I'd reiterate the point - condition 33.3 of the NRCoT makes it clear that the 50% compensation is the minimum you are entitled to - and ask Merseyrail if refusing to pay this is their final position. If they confirm it is, you can take the matter up with the Rail Ombudsman.

Sadly I wouldn't hold out great hopes for the Rail Ombudsman coming to a sensible or correct decision either; they have rather a bad track record. Nevertheless, in a low-value case like this (the amount at stake is 15% of the cost of the ticket, i.e. £6.54) it's likely to be the least worst option since taking it to Court is unlikely to be worth your time or effort.

 

[lrailadventure]

Thank you for for response @Watershed, it is much appreciated.

 

[TUC]

Merseyrail don't do delay repay, because their franchise/concession is so long they're the only TOC that still operates under the old passenger charter system.

But aren't they just as subject to the NRCoT minimum Delay Repay provisions as any other TOC?

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail are wrong. You made one journey to York despite using multiple operators; the delay in reaching York is what counts.

Whilst Merseyrail are entitled to have as stingy a delay compensation policy as they like for journeys that are delayed by less than an hour, for 60+ minute delays the NRCoT minimum comes into play and requires that they pay a minimum of 50% of the relevant portion of the ticket (i.e. 25% of the total cost, in the case of a return ticket as here).

This isn't something they can opt out of; they are a signatory to the NRCoT and are one of the Train Companies as listed in Annex A.

I'd reiterate the point - condition 33.3 of the NRCoT makes it clear that the 50% compensation is the minimum you are entitled to - and ask Merseyrail if refusing to pay this is their final position. If they confirm it is, you can take the matter up with the Rail Ombudsman.

Sadly I wouldn't hold out great hopes for the Rail Ombudsman coming to a sensible or correct decision either; they have rather a bad track record. Nevertheless, in a low-value case like this (the amount at stake is 15% of the cost of the ticket, i.e. £6.54) it's likely to be the least worst option since taking it to Court is unlikely to be worth your time or effort.

This is correct. The person dealing with it at Merseyrail is confusing their own compensation policy and even getting that wrong, with their requirements under the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[Watershed]

But aren't they just as subject to the NRCoT minimum Delay Repay provisions as any other TOC?

Indeed they are. Whilst TfL's delay policy is similarly stingy for delays to journeys that extend beyond the PAYG area, they do at least correctly recognise the fact that the NRCoT minimum is payable for 60+ minute delays.

 

[lrailadventure]

I submitted a complaint to Merseyrail, explicitly detailing the NRCoT and how their compensation offering is not in adherence with the guidelines. This is the response I got..

[An email from Merseyrail saying they will only offer 20% of the ticket value, which totals £8.72, and how I can claim that money]

So obviously I'm off to the Rail Ombudsman now since Merseyrail are not complying with the NRCoT, but do I take the offering of £8.72 now and try and get the rest back through the Ombudsman, or leave it and try to get the whole amount back in one go?

 

[Hadders]

Do not accept the £8.72 now. You need to reject that offer and escalate the issue.

 

[Starmill]

I submitted a complaint to Merseyrail, explicitly detailing the NRCoT and how their compensation offering is not in adherence with the guidelines. This is the response I got..
View attachment 151344
[An email from Merseyrail saying they will only offer 20% of the ticket value, which totals £8.72, and how I can claim that money]

So obviously I'm off to the Rail Ombudsman now since Merseyrail are not complying with the NRCoT, but do I take the offering of £8.72 now and try and get the rest back through the Ombudsman, or leave it and try to get the whole amount back in one go?

I strongly suggest responding refusing the offer. If you don't, Merseyrail may submit to the Ombudsman, or County Court, if either hears your claim, that you've already agreed to accept a settlement - and therefore the matter is closed.

 

[lrailadventure]

Thank you @Hadders and @Starmill.

I note on the Ombudsman website I will need a deadlock letter from Merseyrail. Would their previous email count as this, or will I need to reply to them again, rejecting the offer and specifically requesting the deadlock letter?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you @Hadders and @Starmill.

I note on the Ombudsman website I will need a deadlock letter from Merseyrail. Would their previous email count as this, or will I need to reply to them again, rejecting the offer and specifically requesting the deadlock letter?

You need to specifically request one, or have the case be open otherwise for 40 days.

I would write and specifically request one.

Do keep us posted.

 

[Hadders]

You need to specifically request one, or have the case be open otherwise for 40 days.

I would write and specifically request one.

Do keep us posted.

Agreed! I would word the letter in such away to remind them that Merseyrail is subject to the NRCoT and that consequently they are obliged to offer compensations for delays in accordance with Condition 32. Ask them to either pay compensation in accordance with this, or send you a deadlock letter so you can escalate the matter to the Ombudsman.

 

[lrailadventure]

Using the template from Citizens Advice, would this be alright to send to the requesting the deadlock letter:

I am writing concerning the above complaint. I wrote to you on 4th January 2024 and 12th January 2024 asking you to comply with condition 33.3 of the NRCoT in regards to compensation of delays totalling more than 60 minutes for a journey made between Ormskirk and York on 4th January 2024.

However, your attempts to resolve the problem have not been satisfactory and you claim that there is nothing more you can do to help me. I feel that we have reached a deadlock situation and, therefore, unless you are prepared to pay me the correct amount of compensation due, I am left with no alternative but to take my complaint to the rail ombudsman. If you are still in a position where you are not prepared to comply with the NRCoT, please can you issue me with a letter of deadlock so that I may refer this matter to the ombudsman.

If I do not hear from you within 14 days I shall assume that you are in agreement that this case has reached deadlock and I shall refer my complaint about you to the ombudsman without further reference to you.

I have already quoted them the NRCoT (and their own website to which they sent me a link to) in my previous email, so I can imagine they're either not going to reply or provide me with the deadlock letter (hopefully quickly to stop dragging this issue out longer than it needs to be..). My previous email to them in full was as follows (and met with the response shared in post #17):

Good Evening,

Thank you for your response, however, I am not satisfied with the outcome, and only receiving £8.72 in compensation. If this is the best that Merseyrail are prepared to offer then I would like to lodge a formal complaint, and will if necessary take this to the Rail Ombudsman.

Firstly, the link you have included to the passenger charter section of your website does not mention only receiving 20% when travel plans include networks other than your own. Directly quoting from the page, it states:

"Refunds
We normally run reliable and punctual services. Occasionally things can go wrong. If our service fails to meet Passenger Charter Standards, Merseyrail or Merseytravel will offer full and partial refunds as indicated below.

Single, Return & Weekly Railpass Tickets
If you have a single ticket, the compensation will be equal to the full cost of the ticket. If you have a return ticket, the compensation will be 50% of the cost of the ticket. If you hold a weekly Railpass ticket you will be entitled to a percentage of the cost.

Season & Trio Tickets (valid one month or longer)
If on average, over the duration of our ticket, performance has been between 91.9% and 90% then we will give a refund of 5% of the purchase price of the ticket. If performance falls below 90% we will give a refund of 10%.

How to Claim
If you have a Railpass please click here for details on how to request compensation. If you have a paper season ticket, to request compensation please download the Passenger Charter Refund Form here and hand it into any staffed Merseyrail station with the expired Season Ticket attached. Alternatively you can post the form and ticket to:

      Freepost MERSEYRAIL CUSTOMER RELATIONS
      Merseyrail
      BR Properties
      Rail House
      Lord Nelson Street
      LIVERPOOL
      L1 1JF"

Based on the information on this page that you have just provided me, I would be entitled to compensation totalling £21.80, since I held a return ticket that was worth £43.60. How do you expect passengers to know how much money they are due to receive in delay compensation if the information is not presented on the relevant pages? The information on this website also does not detail how much compensation a passenger could expect to receive if they are travelling on one of your daysaver tickets (the ticket you sell to everyone travelling off-peak irrespective of their destination). Is your website designed to withhold information and make it as difficult for people to use as possible?

Secondly, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) lists Merseyrail as a company to which the conditions apply to, in Appendix A. I'm sure you're aware, but these terms and conditions comprise the binding contract that comes into effect between a passenger and train companies when the passenger purchases a ticket. I will once again draw your attention to condition 33. This condition outlines how to make a claim under the industry arrangements. Specifically under condition 33.3, it outlines the minimum compensation due to journeys that are delayed by 60 or more minutes. Under this condition, it states:

      " For single tickets, or return tickets with delay on both the outward and return journeys, 50% of the price paid.
      For return tickets with delay on outward or return journey, 50% of the price paid for the relevant portion of the journey.
      For season tickets, The discount or compensation arrangements in the relevant Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter apply"

For your benefit, I have highlighted the portion of this condition which is applicable in this situation. In this situation, the relevant portion of the journey totals £21.80, which means you must pay the minimum compensation of 50% of this amount. Delay repay is calculated from the total length of delay that occurred during a journey, in this case, the delay is 85 minutes. Since you caused the initial delay, you are responsible for paying the full amount of compensation that is owed (regardless of incurring further delays along the rest of the journey - as per your suggestion to go to TPE...)

Your offering of £8.72, and your delay repayment scheme is currently therefore in breach of the NRCoT. Are you prepared to pay the correct amount?

 

[Haywain]

Using the template from Citizens Advice, would this be alright to send to the requesting the deadlock letter:



I have already quoted them the NRCoT (and their own website to which they sent me a link to) in my previous email, so I can imagine they're either not going to reply or provide me with the deadlock letter (hopefully quickly to stop dragging this issue out longer than it needs to be..). My previous email to them in full was as follows (and met with the response shared in post #17):

I think you need to specifically state that you are not prepared to accept the offer of £8.72.

 

[lrailadventure]

Noted, I shall add that in, thank you.

 

[Starmill]

Sadly I don't think you can set them a deadline of 14 days. You can ask them to make their reply within 14 days but you can't force them to. The Ombudsman will only consider your complaint in line with their own rules. This means you must wait 40 working days (about 8 weeks) from the day you first sent the complaint, or have been sent a formal deadlock letter.

 

[lrailadventure]

Despite specifically asking for a letter of deadlock if they refuse to adhere to the NRCoT.. I have today receive this from Merseyrail:

Thank you for your reply regarding your Merseyrail Claim MEXXXXXX



We apologise that you are not satisfied with our resolution.



Unfortunately, here at Merseyrail we employ our own independent passenger charter and we do not subscribe to the NRCot, and its terms and conditions would not apply to our services.



Therefore, we regret to inform you that under the terms and conditions of our passenger charter, our decision to award you 20% of the value of your travel ticket used in part to travel on the Merseyrail network as part of a wider journey has been ruled to be correct, and we are happy to compensate you at the rate of £8.72.



If there are any issues preventing you from claiming your refund through the Natwest Payit app, please let us know and we will be happy to assist you with receiving your refund.



Many thanks,

Why are they trying to tell me they don't subscribe to the NRCoT if they are a signatory in the Appendix? Any tips on how to actually get a letter of deadlock from them, or can I now count this as the letter since they're apparently refusing to also provide me with that?
Otherwise I'm stuck until the 28th I believe waiting for the 40 working days to pass.

 

[TUC]

What kind of meaningless garbage is a phrase like 'We apologise that you are not satisfied with our resolution'?

What Merseyrail need to apologise for is that whichever of their staff wrote that letter does not know how to write clear English.

 

[Watershed]

Despite specifically asking for a letter of deadlock if they refuse to adhere to the NRCoT.. I have today receive this from Merseyrail:



Why are they trying to tell me they don't subscribe to the NRCoT if they are a signatory in the Appendix? Any tips on how to actually get a letter of deadlock from them, or can I now count this as the letter since they're apparently refusing to also provide me with that?
Otherwise I'm stuck until the 28th I believe waiting for the 40 working days to pass.

Given that you'll be waiting to take it to the Ombudsman either way, you might as well humour them with a response. How about this:

Dear X,

Please could you explain why you believe that Merseyrail "does not subscribe to the NRCoT"?

Your Passenger's Charter refers to several sections of the NRCoT and in relation to delay compensation, states:
Merseyrail’s Passenger Charter is designed in line with the National Rail Conditions of Travel and we will treat any claim you make to us in line with these conditions.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel also clearly list Merseyrail in "Annex A: List of Train Companies to which the National Rail Conditions of Travel apply".

The above evidence demonstrates that Merseyrail does indeed "subscribe to the NRCoT" and is bound by it. Therefore further compensation remains due as claimed. However, if your position remains unchanged I would ask that you confirm whether this constitutes a "letter of deadlock" or "final response" so that I may proceed to the Rail Ombudsman.

Yours faithfully,

 

[TUC]

If Merseyrail claim they aren't subject to the NRCOT, it would be fascinating to compare these to their own passenger charter and see if just them relying on the latter leaves Merseyrail without some key provisions needed to run their business.