Merseyrail delay claim

[gray1404]

Does anyone know how Merseyrail operate their scheme for delay claims. I traveled yesterday on a through ticket from Formby to Birmingham New Street. The Formby to Liverpool South Parkway service was running late and they terminated it at Liverpool Central. I therefore missed my connection at Liverpool South Parkway onto London Midland and had to travel on the next Birmingham service. This resulted in a 31 minute delay to my journey.

I have looked up the Merseyrail Passenger's Charter on their website and it says:

Single, Return & Weekly Railpass Tickets
If you hold a daily ticket and you are delayed for more than half an hour, we will refund the price of the ticket.

By that wording does it mean that I will get a full refund of my entire ticket, which was a railcard discounted Off Peak Return from Formby to Birmingham. I did pay for it in full with Rail Travel Voucher's issued by London Midland though. Or will it just be the Merseyrail element of the journey they will refund?

I have requested that they either refund me by cheque or National Rail Travel Vouchers that will be accepted at the ticket offices of any TOC. I hear that Merseyrail have a habit of giving out vouchers that are only valid at their stations. This is against the National Rail Conditions of Carriage isn't it; in terms of RTVs being usable at the stations of and for travel on any TOC.

It also says in their Passengers Charter:
How to Claim
To claim a refund you will need to complete a claim form, which are available from the Ticket Office of staffed stations, when your ticket expires. All claims under the Passenger Charter will be processed by post.

I am outside of Merseyside at the moment so am unable to do this i.e. go to their station to get a form. I would take issue with doing this anyway as I understand it is acceptable to claim "in writing i.e. not on a form if you wish." I have therefore emailed in my complaint to them and attached a copy of my ticket. Does this sound acceptable? I guess they could always post me a form and I can send it back with the ticket right? I don't think its reasonable for me to make a special trip to their station just to pick up a form surely.

 

[northwichcat]

This resulted in a 31 minute delay to my journey.
...

I hear that Merseyrail have a habit of giving out vouchers that are only valid at their stations. This is against the National Rail Conditions of Carriage isn't it; in terms of RTVs being usable at the stations of and for travel on any TOC.

Not in the case of a 31 minute delay. NRCoC states compensation in the form of NR vouchers only has to be provided if the delay causes to arrive at your final destination at least 60 minutes late. Although, a lot of operators now provide them for delays of 30 minutes or more.

I am outside of Merseyside at the moment so am unable to do this i.e. go to their station to get a form. I would take issue with doing this anyway as I understand it is acceptable to claim "in writing i.e. not on a form if you wish." I have therefore emailed in my complaint to them and attached a copy of my ticket. Does this sound acceptable?

Yes. Even if you were in Merseyside your local station may not have any left if a lot of people have suffered disruption recently.

 

[First class]

Merseyrail only refund their own tickets 100% for 30 min delays, (and even then only give a £5 Merseyrail-only travel voucher).

They only issue the NRCoC minimum requirement of 10 per cent of the price paid for a return ticket if the delay to you is just on one leg of the journey for a delay of over 60 minutes.

They may well be more generous, but they have been in the local newspaper a few times in the past about having the "worst" or "one of the worst" compensation schemes in the UK.

So no compensation is officially due, as your delay did not meet the NRCoC threshold.

Compensation schemes vary, but as a minimum, if you are one hour late at your destination station, you are entitled to:

20 per cent of the price paid for a single ticket
10 per cent of the price paid for a return ticket if the delay to you is just on one leg of the journey
20 per cent of the price paid for a return ticket if both legs are delayed.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for explaining guys. I wasn't sure if what was in their passengers charter over rode the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. I know this is the case with Delay Repay Schemes i.e. its 30 minutes rather then 60.

It sounds to me then like 2 thinks with Merseyrail: -
1. If you are delayed by more then 30 minutes for travel solely on Merseyrail then they will refund the ticket (as its valid for travel solely on their network) by way of own of their own vouchers.
2. In the case of journeys involving travel on other operators too: In order to get compensation in National Rail Travel vouchers from Merseyrail if your delay in of an hour or more, and even then it is only the minimum set under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage of a mere 10% on a return journey.

I shall have to see what the outcome is on this. Shall have to see if they are more generous. It appears like the Department for Transport are making Delay Repay for delays of 30= minutes (regardless of what caused the delay) a condition of all franchises as and when they are up for renewal now. I see this as a good thing. However, Merseyrail's current franchise is not up until 2028. It could therefore be the last TOC on which Delay Repay - which would by default apply to a journey of any length, anywhere on the National Rail Network, is made compulsory.

I understand the contract was awarded to the current operator by Merseytravel. Come 2028, would the decision of the next operator revert back to the DfT for would it stay with Merseytravel. If it was to stay with Merseytravel then including Depay Repay could be totally overlooked again. Not good for passengers!

 

[First class]

Thanks for explaining guys. I wasn't sure if what was in their passengers charter over rode the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. I know this is the case with Delay Repay Schemes i.e. its 30 minutes rather then 60.

It sounds to me then like 2 thinks with Merseyrail: -
1. If you are delayed by more then 30 minutes for travel solely on Merseyrail then they will refund the ticket (as its valid for travel solely on their network) by way of own of their own vouchers.
2. In the case of journeys involving travel on other operators too: In order to get compensation in National Rail Travel vouchers from Merseyrail if your delay in of an hour or more, and even then it is only the minimum set under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage of a mere 10% on a return journey.

I shall have to see what the outcome is on this. Shall have to see if they are more generous. It appears like the Department for Transport are making Delay Repay for delays of 30= minutes (regardless of what caused the delay) a condition of all franchises as and when they are up for renewal now. I see this as a good thing. However, Merseyrail's current franchise is not up until 2028. It could therefore be the last TOC on which Delay Repay - which would by default apply to a journey of any length, anywhere on the National Rail Network, is made compulsory.

I understand the contract was awarded to the current operator by Merseytravel. Come 2028, would the decision of the next operator revert back to the DfT for would it stay with Merseytravel. If it was to stay with Merseytravel then including Depay Repay could be totally overlooked again. Not good for passengers!

DfT aren't involved with Merseyrail. It is a completely devolved matter to Merseytravel.

Merseyrail is also NOT a franchise. It is a "concession".

Simply, Merseytravel specifies EVERYTHING and Merseyrail Electrics just meet the Merseytravel contract criteria. Merseyrail Electrics just implements whatever Merseytravel pay them to do essentially!

I wouldn't imagine that Delay Repay would ever be offered owing to the small and localised nature of the network, but in any event, 13 years is a long long way away!

I'd say by 2028 that Merseyrail won't be a TOC, it will be a standalone operation similar to London Underground, and they'll opt out of the National Rail ticketing scheme completely.

 

[gray1404]

That is a real shame indeed if Merseyrail were to opt out of being a National Rail TOC! It has its advantages to being part of the National Rail Network, not least being able to connect onto other services on through ticketing.

So come 2028 it will still be Merseytravel that specifies everything in the concession. Meaning to say the Merseyrail concession is permanent then? i.e. not just until 2028 - so there will never be any further Department for Transport involvement.

I think it would be very difficult to get Merseytravel to look at introducing a delay repay scheme, they are not very broad on the way they think.

 

[Starmill]

I'd say by 2028 that Merseyrail won't be a TOC, it will be a standalone operation similar to London Underground, and they'll opt out of the National Rail ticketing scheme completely.

They're trying to make it that way. It's my only criticism of Merseyrail. But it's also a dealbreaker! I'd give up all the investment, local focus, staffed stations, frequent service, progressive fares - all of it, before giving up integrated ticketing. It's also the reason why Merseyrail has a major advantage over things like Metrolink.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're trying to make it that way. It's my only criticism of Merseyrail. But it's also a dealbreaker! I'd give up all the investment, local focus, staffed stations, frequent service, progressive fares - all of it, before giving up integrated ticketing. It's also the reason why Merseyrail has a major advantage over things like Metrolink.

The big difficulty here is that most Merseyrail lines are roughly north to south, while there is fairly large demand for east to west journeys. Presently if you live in the middle of the Chester, Southport or Ormskirk lines, you have a large choice of routes for a journey to the east e.g. Manchester, and all of them are Permitted with no routed ticket I'm aware of, such as:

Ormskirk-Manchester: via Preston, Burscough/Wigan, Kirkby/Wigan, Liverpool
Formby-Manchester: via Southport, Liverpool
etc

There is very little of the same on Metrolink - if on the Altrincham branch travelling to Chester you'd have little reason not to go via Altrincham, similarly for Rochdale if on the Oldham branch - the network is a completely different shape.

So a loss of through ticketing would make things very awkward here - though I similarly think it is not unlikely the way things are going.

Personally I think a reasonable solution may copy German S-Bahnen which it basically is the same as - Merseyrail do what they like for purely internal journeys (a PTE single including bus travel might be nice!) but National Rail ticketing and conditions remain for longer-distance journeys.

I wonder will Delay Repay become part of the NCoC once every TOC is on it?

 

[cool110]

So come 2028 it will still be Merseytravel that specifies everything in the concession. Meaning to say the Merseyrail concession is permanent then? i.e. not just until 2028 - so there will never be any further Department for Transport involvement.

Yes, 2028 is how long the current operator (Serco-Abellio) have the concession to. After that it will still be Merseytravel that set the conditions and award the next one.

 

[Camden]

They're trying to make it that way. It's my only criticism of Merseyrail. But it's also a dealbreaker! I'd give up all the investment, local focus, staffed stations, frequent service, progressive fares - all of it, before giving up integrated ticketing. It's also the reason why Merseyrail has a major advantage over things like Metrolink.

Why would that mean an end to integrated ticketing? If the aim is to act more like the Tube then simply you would have tickets like London Terminals to Liverpool Zones 1-6. Or inside Liverpool area, Liverpool Zone 3 to Nottingham.

Simplifying obviously, but I really doubt that multiple tickets is the aim. It would be great for me to be able to buy a single ticket from London to a Liverpool "Zone 1-2", rather than either me buying a London to Birkenhead ticket, which restricts me to doing just that journey, or more usually when I have a few places I need to go to London to Liverpool ticket and then a local day ticket on top on arrival.

 

[northwichcat]

There is very little of the same on Metrolink - if on the Altrincham branch travelling to Chester you'd have little reason not to go via Altrincham, similarly for Rochdale if on the Oldham branch - the network is a completely different shape.

To me the biggest problem with those types of journeys is due to no proper timetable* it's difficult to make southbound connections at Altrincham without aiming to arrive at Altrincham 15 minutes+ ahead of the Chester departure. It's not so much an issue in the northbound direction though.

* While you can get a working timetable on certain websites trams are allowed to depart up to 2 minutes early to keep them evenly spaced out. While Metrolink are known to turn around late running trams at Cornbrook, especially late afternoon when they are concerned about enough trams being in central Manchester for the evening peak.

 

[gray1404]

So when the DfT awarded the concession to Merseytravel, that was on a permanent basis. Thus meaning the DfT will never have any control or imput into the formaer Merseyrail franchise ever again. That is dreadful!

 

[Camden]

So when the DfT awarded the concession to Merseytravel, that was on a permanent basis. Thus meaning the DfT will never have any control or imput into the formaer Merseyrail franchise ever again. That is dreadful!

Why?? Merseyrail has been transformed since it was taken over locally, and frequently cited as inspiration for this kind of model (including in the Rail North discussions). I hardly think your grumble over discretionary long distance delay repay counts as a major concern.

 

[Haywain]

So come 2028 it will still be Merseytravel that specifies everything in the concession. Meaning to say the Merseyrail concession is permanent then? i.e. not just until 2028 - so there will never be any further Department for Transport involvement.

No-one with any sense will claim to know what will happen in 2028 - that's 13 years away. It may well depends on the policies of several governments between now and then.

 

[Flamingo]

No-one with any sense will claim to know what will happen in 2028 - that's 13 years away. It may well depends on the policies of several governments between now and then.

We'll all have hoverboards and flying cars by then

 

[gray1404]

Why?? Merseyrail has been transformed since it was taken over locally, and frequently cited as inspiration for this kind of model (including in the Rail North discussions). I hardly think your grumble over discretionary long distance delay repay counts as a major concern.

If it had have worked the other way though (or where to in the future - could happen) that Merseyrail goes really bad, could the DfT take back control again?

Regarding my comments over delay reply in relation to long distance (but equally could apply to very short journeys that simply involve ME plus one other TOC e.g. Northern - who provide connections at many interchange stations on Merseyrail.) As I've said before: - "There is clearly a lack of standardization across the network and that, for one, I find very annoying!" So it would be good to get to a point whereby every single TOC operated the delay reply scheme, it didn't matter who your journey was with or if it was just with them or others and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage would then be able to accept this.

For the suggestions above the ME may end up using a zonal system, I wonder if they would adopt something similar to the current Zones used on the Saveaway tickets (although those zones are massive)
e.g. Area D covers all the way from Southport to Hightown. On the same line area C would cover then all the way from Hall Road through to Hunts Cross. So maybe it would be similar to the sub zones used for issueing Trio tickets E.g.
D1 would cover Southport to Ainsdale, D2 Freshfield to Hightown. C3 Hall Road to Bootle Oriel Road etc... Would be very unfair though if you were making say a one stop journey that spread across 2 zones e.g. Hightown to Hall Road.

 

[northwichcat]

So when the DfT awarded the concession to Merseytravel, that was on a permanent basis. Thus meaning the DfT will never have any control or imput into the formaer Merseyrail franchise ever again. That is dreadful!

Some people post on here benefits of Metrolink over National Rail but there's disadvantages as well. Merseyrail has many of the benefits of Metrolink with not many of the disadvantages so it's almost a win win situation.

 

[gray1404]

I've hard back from ME. They said that passengers receive a full refund for delays of 30 minutes if travel is on their own network solely. For travel beyond their own network then it is 20% of price paid in line with the NRCoC and this is in RTVs. They did state though if they set the bar for this at 30 or 60 minutes. My delay personally was 30 minutes.

They said that the line was closed at the request of Merseyside Police (I was surprised it was not the BTP to be honest) and normally they do not pay compensation for such incidents outside the control of the railway industry. However, as a good will gesture they will pay compensation and included £7 of RTV. Now, 20% of my fare would be £6.47 so I see what they've done here is rounded it up to the nearest whole pound. They sent the old style RTVs. (i..e. 2 x green £1 vouchers and 1 x blue £5 will a hand written date on them) still just as valid. Under a delay repay scheme though compensation would have been payable by default after 30 minutes regardless of what caused the delay and the minimum would have been 25%.

I think the ME scheme is generous if you travel is solely on their network in that you would get full refund even for 30 minute delay (a full refund even if your ticket was a return or day saver ticket). However, it would have to be due to circumstances within their control. However, you are at a disadvantage if your travel is beyond their network and there's a higher degree of disruption needed to be suffered before you qualify for anything.

Its the only TOC I've ever heard of that appears to be operating a 2 tier compensation system.

 

[185143]

I've hard back from ME. They said that passengers receive a full refund for delays of 30 minutes if travel is on their own network solely. For travel beyond their own network then it is 20% of price paid in line with the NRCoC and this is in RTVs. They did state though if they set the bar for this at 30 or 60 minutes. My delay personally was 30 minutes.

They said that the line was closed at the request of Merseyside Police (I was surprised it was not the BTP to be honest) and normally they do not pay compensation for such incidents outside the control of the railway industry. However, as a good will gesture they will pay compensation and included £7 of RTV. Now, 20% of my fare would be £6.47 so I see what they've done here is rounded it up to the nearest whole pound. They sent the old style RTVs. (i..e. 2 x green £1 vouchers and 1 x blue £5 will a hand written date on them) still just as valid. Under a delay repay scheme though compensation would have been payable by default after 30 minutes regardless of what caused the delay and the minimum would have been 25%.

I think the ME scheme is generous if you travel is solely on their network in that you would get full refund even for 30 minute delay (a full refund even if your ticket was a return or day saver ticket). However, it would have to be due to circumstances within their control. However, you are at a disadvantage if your travel is beyond their network and there's a higher degree of disruption needed to be suffered before you qualify for anything.

Its the only TOC I've ever heard of that appears to be operating a 2 tier compensation system.

Northern are fans of Complimentary travel vouchers! (Which, as they are valid anytime, is excellent! Free Northern bash!)

They do also send out RTVs.