Merseyrail "Daysaver"

[Polarbear]

Since September 2010, Merseyrail withdrew all "off peak" returns on their flows & replaced them with a Daysaver ticket. Basically, a day rover valid after 09:30 weekdays & all day at weekends & bank holidays. The ticket covers all services on both the Northern & Wirral lines, including out beyond Merseyside to Ormskirk & Chester.

Priced at £4.50, it's a good value ticket. However, when it was first launched, there were a few teething issues - one expample being the inability to buy the blessed things from TVM's.

Having interrogated the TVM at Bache this morning, (not much else to do whilst awaiting the 06:33), I note that they also sell Daysaver tickets for smaller areas too. For example, there's a ticket for "Zone G" (Hooton to Chester & Ellesmere Port only. A chat to the M2Go staff at Central later on suggested that an Area C ticket was also available. The zones are the same as those for the weekly & monthly passes that are marketed by Merseytravel.

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/articleimages/Trio%20Solo%20Railpass%20leaflet%202011a.pdf
There appears to be a good range of tickets available -IF you know about them. Nowhere does there appear to be any advertising for these products, other than 1 paragraph on the Merseyrail website, or at their stations, (there is no leaflet either). Why is it that TOC's can't be bothered marketing their products properly. All well and good selling these things, but if no one knows about them, (and where they can be used etc), I can't see too many being sold!

 

[NSE]

Stuff is often badly advertised, like the Southern Day save. Offpeak and weekends its £10 (i think it may have gone up by a few pence recently) for unlimited travel over the Southern network. If all the public knew about this then Southern would lose loads of money. Especially if you want to travel from Milton Keynes down to say Ashford/Pompey/Soton.
It seems odd not having a company advertise its product, but its often done.

 

[First class]

If you were the TOC and only offered this product because you were FORCED to do so by your franchise agreement to offer an "off peak" fare, would you want to advertise it?

This fare exists for two reasons:

1) The Day Saver gets 100% revenue from ORCATS (less any other TOC sales commission) (as only valid on Merseyrail) compared to about 60% from the Saveaway (inter-available, multi modal)
2) To comply with the franchise requirement to offer an "off peak" fare.

Most people will just ask for a Single/Return and as rovers/rangers/promo don't have to be suggested, in theory, they could get away with selling the SDS/SDR, (although in principal retailers do their best).

I don't really think it needs advertising because nearly every Merseyrail station is staffed and the ME Only Area B/C/D product will be sold automatically.

 

[AlterEgo]

Stuff is often badly advertised, like the Southern Day save. Offpeak and weekends its £10 (i think it may have gone up by a few pence recently) for unlimited travel over the Southern network.

It's actually £12.00 now for an adult - still an excellent deal though! I did use one last year I think. I had a great day out in Brighton on it, plus I took in a couple of other places I'd not normally visit.

 

[snail]

Since September 2010, Merseyrail withdrew all "off peak" returns on their flows & replaced them with a Daysaver ticket. Basically, a day rover valid after 09:30 weekdays & all day at weekends & bank holidays. The ticket covers all services on both the Northern & Wirral lines, including out beyond Merseyside to Ormskirk & Chester.

Priced at £4.50, it's a good value ticket.

The Saveaway ticket at £4.60 is even better value as it lets you use any bus and the Mersey Ferries as well!

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/information_tickets_saveaway.asp

 

[WestCoast]

In certain areas, many travellers are completely unaware of Rovers/Rangers, which could save them money.

 

[trainophile]

The Southport (Area D I think) Day Saver is £3.30 or £3.40 with buses, and extends one stop beyond Formby. A standard off peak day return Southport to Formby is £3.30. It's a no brainer. Only problem is, if I want to use the bus to get to the station prior to travel, I have to buy my ticket the day before. Excellent value though.

 

[Polarbear]

I don't really think it needs advertising because nearly every Merseyrail station is staffed and the ME Only Area B/C/D product will be sold automatically.

Bache is not staffed & the Area G Daysaver is not advertised anywhere. I didn't know about it until I stumbled across it today. Indeed, there is nothing at Bache station to advise customers to purchase a "Daysaver" & I expect many people are merrily paying the "Anytime" fare throughout the day.

I have previousluy taken issue with Merseyrail about this point & was told that my comments would be passed to their marketing people. Seems as though it may have been by means of the waste paper bin!

Although it's a long way around between Chester & E'Port, the Daysaver fare is a darned sight cheaper than either of the bus companies' offerings. Given that there is a bit of spare capacity at the extremities of the Merseyrail network, I can't see why it wouldn't be advertised - better having £3.30 fares than empty seats as most people still think it's cheaper to get the bus!

Unless of course the TOC is being less than honest with it's "customers" in order to only see more expensive "Anytime" returns. Nah, that wouldn't be it would it....

I do wonder what Passenger Focus would make of Merseyrail's stance.:roll:

 

[First class]

Bache is not staffed & the Area G Daysaver is not advertised anywhere. I didn't know about it until I stumbled across it today. Indeed, there is nothing at Bache station to advise customers to purchase a "Daysaver" & I expect many people are merrily paying the "Anytime" fare throughout the day.

I have previousluy taken issue with Merseyrail about this point & was told that my comments would be passed to their marketing people. Seems as though it may have been by means of the waste paper bin!

Although it's a long way around between Chester & E'Port, the Daysaver fare is a darned sight cheaper than either of the bus companies' offerings. Given that there is a bit of spare capacity at the extremities of the Merseyrail network, I can't see why it wouldn't be advertised - better having £3.30 fares than empty seats as most people still think it's cheaper to get the bus!

Unless of course the TOC is being less than honest with it's "customers" in order to only see more expensive "Anytime" returns. Nah, that wouldn't be it would it....

I do wonder what Passenger Focus would make of Merseyrail's stance.:roll:

Rover products do not have to be advertised or offered.

Nevertheless, nearly every journey in Area G it is cheaper to buy the Anytime ticket.

e.g.

Bache-Capenhurst SDR is £2.65
Bache-Chester SDR is £1.55
Chester-Hooton SDR is £3.75 (both staffed stations so would offer Area G)
Capenhurst-Ellesmere Port SDR is £2.40

There isn't a deliberate attempt to "rip off" customers, just poor marketing for a product that they don't have to automatically offer.
In any event, the journeys available in Area G that make the Day Saver a better ticket are very, very few. Bear in mind these stations are fairly "quiet" in comparison to other stations, the amount of people "over paying" will be very, very low. A lot may like the flexibility of the Anytime ticket.

 

[Polarbear]

Point taken, but there are a considerable number of people who travel from Bache to Liverpool off peak. There is nothing at Bache station to indicate that cheaper off peak fares are avaiable after 09:30.

The any permitted SDR Bache-Liverpool is £6.45 against the Daysaver fare of £4.50, a £1.95 difference in the TOC's favour. True, the Daysaver is now available from the TVM (it was not available from Bache when the ticket was first introduced - despite the website stating it was).

Rover products do not have to be advertised or offered

True, but in my experience, most TOC's are keen to fill off peak trains so DO advertise their lower off peak fares. That Merseyrail have taken it upon themselves to discard a nationally recognised set of tickets (off peak day returns) & replace these with their own product, (a rover) which they then choose not to advertise says volumes about their attitude towards their customers.

I'm not talking about a huge marketing campaign, just a poster at the unstaffed stations to make customers (yes, that's what they are - not cash cows), aware of the alternatives.

Just because someone has a right to do something does not mean they necessarily have to exercise that right!

 

[nedchester]

There isn't a deliberate attempt to "rip off" customers, just poor marketing for a product that they don't have to automatically offer.
In any event, the journeys available in Area G that make the Day Saver a better ticket are very, very few. Bear in mind these stations are fairly "quiet" in comparison to other stations, the amount of people "over paying" will be very, very low. A lot may like the flexibility of the Anytime ticket.

Maybe the stations are quiet compared to the other stations but it doesn't make it right. I frequently stand behind people buying a ticket to Liverpool and they blindly press the Liverpool button for a Anytime fare completely unaware of the availability of the cheaper Day Saver? I have pointed this out to people saying they can save themselves £2. Sometimes they think I'm lying so I don't bother now. Why can't Merseyrail simple put an advert on the TVM to reflect the availability of this ticket? It's not hard or I suspect they like conning the unsuspecting passenger out of the extra money.

My local station (Capenhurst) is actually quite busy to be honest and am still annoyed by the fact that half the trains don't stop there during the day. (I suspect the excuse about low passenger numbers using the station came from ticket receipts when the station had no TVM??)

 

[vjm1975]

I noticed at Ellesmere Port yesterday that many people buy the anytime return to Liverpool, which is £5.00, or anytime return to Chester, which is £3.75, as opposed to the day savers at £4.50 all areas & £3.30 area G.

At least they are on the first page of popular destinations now, but if you do not know what they are then people will simply select Liverpool anytime Return or Chester anytime Return.

Theres also the confusion with the fact the tickets have SINGLE printed on them. Those people who have purchased the day Savers from the TVM's suddenly panic, thinking they have got the wrong ticket. Thankfully the guards on board the trains are normally very helpful in explaining about them, and also on a few occasions they will inform people who have purchased anytime returns about the cheaper ticket available.

I still think a note on, or next to the TVM's explaining about the Day Savers would be a good thing.

 

[WestCoast]

Maybe the stations are quiet compared to the other stations but it doesn't make it right. I frequently stand behind people buying a ticket to Liverpool and they blindly press the Liverpool button for a Anytime fare completely unaware of the availability of the cheaper Day Saver? I have pointed this out to people saying they can save themselves £2. Sometimes they think I'm lying so I don't bother now. Why can't Merseyrail simple put an advert on the TVM to reflect the availability of this ticket? It's not hard or I suspect they like conning the unsuspecting passenger out of the extra money.

Exactly, a simple note would do! Mind you, at least the ticket offices offer the ticket, I have known some bus drivers to not offer a cheaper day ticket when it has been available.

 

[northwichcat]

People are commenting a lot on TVMs. If I wanted to buy one from TVMs at Chester:
a) Is it possible?
b) Does it automatically come up as an option when, for instance, I enter 'Hamilton Square' as the station I want to travel to, or do you have to do something special to make them appear?

 

[WestCoast]

People are commenting a lot on TVMs. If I wanted to buy one from TVMs at Chester:
a) Is it possible?
b) Does it automatically come up as an option when, for instance, I enter 'Hamilton Square' as the station I want to travel to, or do you have to do something special to make them appear?

Posters have been referring to Merseyrail TVMs.

At Chester, we are referring to ATW machines. I don't even know if they will issue them at all, as Northern/FTPE/Virgin machines don't issue GM rail rangers.

In short, I doubt it. Why aren't rovers/rangers sold at ticket machines or online? They are in other countries - I can buy one from DB and print it as an e-ticket and they are available from all TVMs!

 

[nedchester]

People are commenting a lot on TVMs. If I wanted to buy one from TVMs at Chester:
a) Is it possible?
b) Does it automatically come up as an option when, for instance, I enter 'Hamilton Square' as the station I want to travel to, or do you have to do something special to make them appear?

There used to be bits of paper stuck to the ones at Chester telling passengers to go to the ticket office to buy a cheaper ticket to Liverpool. Not noticed them recently, should have checked yesterday.

I don't know why the TVMs can't issue other tickets like Day Rangers. I had a Cheshire Day Ranger yesterday but had to get it issued in advance at Hooton. Tried Port Sunlight first but the woman told me she didn't know how to do it!!! (Why don't they train the staff properly!)

 

[WestCoast]

Tried Port Sunlight first but the woman told me she didn't know how to do it!!! (Why don't they train the staff properly!)

I have only experienced this once with a ranger, the guy gave me permission to buy it onboard, which obviously you can't do with Merseyrail.

But seriously, why can't TVMs issue rovers/rangers? It must be technically possible...

 

[Polarbear]

As far as I know, the TVM's at Chester don't issue any ranger tickets, including Merseyrail's Daysaver. All such products must be purchased at the ticket office.

I've been told by a friend who works in the industry that as a rule, TVM's can't cope with issuing day ranger tickets. I expect it's more expensive to install ther necessary software into the TVM's to cope with such tickets but if anyone has any more suggestions, feel free to wade in.

Nedchester - I've also had problems with obtaining rangers from Merseyrail staffed stations. Many ticket offices don't know about either the Cheshire or Lancashire day rangers & the barriers at James Street have rejected my Cheshire Day ranger in the past, despite it being perfectly valid there!

 

[nedchester]

Nedchester - I've also had problems with obtaining rangers from Merseyrail staffed stations. Many ticket offices don't know about either the Cheshire or Lancashire day rangers & the barriers at James Street have rejected my Cheshire Day ranger in the past, despite it being perfectly valid there!

So what's the situation if, like me, you turn up at Port Sunlight and the staff cannot issue it. Can you then board without a ticket (in the hope of getting it at Chester, who are very good at Rangers) as the 'full range' of tickets were not available at Port Sunlight?!!

Or maybe Merseyrail should just train their staff better?

 

[WestCoast]

I've been told by a friend who works in the industry that as a rule, TVM's can't cope with issuing day ranger tickets. I expect it's more expensive to install ther necessary software into the TVM's to cope with such tickets but if anyone has any more suggestions, feel free to wade in.

I don't buy that, modern TVMs can cope with Day Rangers: the Scheidt & Bachmann Ticket XPress, (which is used by many TOCs in the UK including a ATW and Merseyrail) can issue advance tickets and rovers/rangers in Germany, as well as printing mini-timetables and offering info. Funny that similar models of TVM can't do that in the UK. The same machines are capable of issuing Day Savers on the Metrolink tram in Manchester as well!

It's all about software and cost as you say, the modern TVMs are fully capable of issuing the full range of tickets with better software. The small, portable Avantix Mobile machines that conductors use can issue virtually anything.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what's the situation if, like me, you turn up at Port Sunlight and the staff cannot issue it. Can you then board without a ticket (in the hope of getting it at Chester, who are very good at Rangers) as the 'full range' of tickets were not available at Port Sunlight?!!

It's a Penalty Fare zone and the guards don't carry Avantix machines on the train. So that wouldn't be wise - you may get charged £20.

If it was a Northern/ATW service, the ticket office would be able to tell you to buy onboard, but not on Merseyrail.

Your best bet is to complain to Merseyrail and see what their response is. There is also someone who works for them on this forum if I remember correctly.

 

[First class]

All Merseyrail customer facing staff will know what a Day Saver is. They sell these tickets all day long, are automatically in their "favourites" and there are many pages on the Merseyrail Intranet under the Sales News tab.

The TVMs at Chester do sell this product. In fact, most customers travelling from Chester have Day Saver tickets from TVMs so they must know how to get them.

It is set up as a normal point to point ticket with the destination "northwirrallines" (NLC I375) and there are signs on the TVMs at Chester indicating how to obtain it. If there aren't signs at Bache/Capenhurst/Little Sutton/Overpool it is more a case of vandalism.

As for the ATGs not accepting the full range of tickets, I personally created the base data for all of the Merseyrail barriers which will be implemented hopefully by 1st July 2011 (hopefully to coincide with the ITSO Card launch). If it is valid, it will work. The selection of tickets that I added to be valid where found by reviewing LENNON data for the last 12 months, that included every single ticket type issued by Merseyrail last year. All of those tickets have been added, meaning some very bizzare combinations of tickets will work.

 

[nedchester]

It is set up as a normal point to point ticket with the destination "northwirrallines" (NLC I375) and there are signs on the TVMs at Chester indicating how to obtain it. If there aren't signs at Bache/Capenhurst/Little Sutton/Overpool it is more a case of vandalism.

There have NEVER been signs advertising the Day Saver at the unstaffed stations, nothing to do with vandalism. In any case notices should also be on the machines.

Staff at stations always offer Day Savers (in my experience) but issuing other tickets such as Cheshire Day Rangers is a little hit and miss....

 

[Paul Kelly]

As for the ATGs not accepting the full range of tickets, I personally created the base data for all of the Merseyrail barriers which will be implemented hopefully by 1st July 2011 (hopefully to coincide with the ITSO Card launch). If it is valid, it will work. The selection of tickets that I added to be valid where found by reviewing LENNON data for the last 12 months, that included every single ticket type issued by Merseyrail last year. All of those tickets have been added, meaning some very bizzare combinations of tickets will work.

Sounds like an interesting challenge. How much memory do the barriers have? As in how many different origins, destinations, ticket types etc. can they cope with?

 

[island]

So what's the situation if, like me, you turn up at Port Sunlight and the staff cannot issue it. Can you then board without a ticket (in the hope of getting it at Chester, who are very good at Rangers) as the 'full range' of tickets were not available at Port Sunlight?!!

You apply the standard rule for where the full range of tickets isn't available for your journey and buy a single to your first destination for the day, part-exchanging it for the ticket you actually want on-train or at your destination or changing point.

SET staff don't like doing part-exchanges, but fortunately this is well out of their territory.

 

[vjm1975]

Second what Ned says, there have never been notes attached to the TVM's at unstaffed stations explaining how to get Day Savers. Something Merseyrail confirmed to me in an Email regarding it some time back, stating that the tickets were 'well advertised' and thus did not need additional information to be required at point of sale.

I did note the introduction of the tickets were well advertised, though only at manned stations. It took a couple of months before they were even available on the TVMs and even longer for them to appear on the first page of popular destinations, rather than the end of page 2.

 

[First class]

Sounds like an interesting challenge. How much memory do the barriers have? As in how many different origins, destinations, ticket types etc. can they cope with?

The memory is theoretically "unlimited". The data is stored on a central server and pushed through a LAN connection to a computer control unit at each barriered station called a SCU. The SCU then applies the data from the central server to each ATG.

The amount of tickets it accepts is also unlimited, but to do this you have to find out each ticket's CAPRI code. Probably about 50 CAPRI codes exist, as lots of products share the same code. I've added nearly all of them for good measure.

You can also set a list of accepted/rejected routes. E.g. all Merseyrail stations automatically reject 00474 Virgin Trns Only tickets.

Additionally, you can also reject CAPRI Status codes, which are effectively the "railcard/discounts". I have set all YP railcards to be blocked before 09:55, but only on solely Merseyrail routes, as no fare exceeds £12. The downside of this is that it will always apply, i.e. in July/August as you can't be that specific in the base specification document. unless the base data is changed centrally.

The Break of Journey tables are an Excel spreadsheet basically up to 13 "sheets" or "zones". Most NLCs are included somewhere in there, e.g. thousands. You then sort of do a "tick box" exercise where you tick a box if a BoJ combination is valid, e.g. Zone 1 to Zone 4 or Zone 5 to Zone 9 etc.

 

[WestCoast]

Any chance of getting Lancashire and Cheshire Day Rangers to be accepted by the Merseyrail barriers?

Northern have finally managed this at Manchester Oxford Road and Blackpool North.

 

[First class]

Any chance of getting Lancashire and Cheshire Day Rangers to be accepted by the Merseyrail barriers?

Northern have finally managed this at Manchester Oxford Road and Blackpool North.

They have been added along with any other valid rover/ranger.

However, the 4 in 8 NW Rover is causing problems as the ATGs retain it! Will hopefully be sorted on 1 July though!

 

[WestCoast]

They have been added along with any other valid rover/ranger.

That's very good, both Northern and Merseyrail have now sorted their barriers out!

Shame you can't help with the other TOCs - the ATW barriers at Chester don't like Break of Journey or the Cheshire Day Ranger - they accept the Mersey one now I think!

However, the 4 in 8 NW Rover is causing problems as the ATGs retain it! Will hopefully be sorted on 1 July though!

Oh dear. From what I have heard, Northern barriers just seem to reject that one.

 

[First class]

It took a good few weeks to just design/write the Merseyrail base data, it has to be implemented yet, and at substantial cost!

Other TOCs may not have any knowledgeable staff, time to spare, finance or even the will to be bothered.

Personally, I think the station staff kicked up a bit of a fuss that the gates weren't operating as well as possible and eventually the management decided it would just be easier to sort it and be done with it for a couple of years.