Merseyrail conversion to DOO

[First class]

How feasible would this be?

Factors that I've considered that would make the concept feasible:

1. Adding Close Door Indicators
2. Mirrors
3. New rolling stock, (due relatively soon anyway)
4. Training station staff in train dispatch duties

With Merseyrail guards no longer dealing with revenue, (now dealt with entirely by Revenue Protection Inspectors), and simply being there to open/close doors and to assist in the event of an emergency- is there a real future for these guards?

I would also argue that if it wasn't for the underground link/loop sections, drivers could even be done away with and have some sort of 'remote' control centre set up within Sandhills IECC due to the self contained nature of the network.

Any thoughts would be appriciated

 

[ukrob]

How feasible would this be?

Factors that I've considered that would make the concept feasible:

1. Adding Close Door Indicators
2. Mirrors
3. New rolling stock, (due relatively soon anyway)
4. Training station staff in train dispatch duties

With Merseyrail guards no longer dealing with revenue, (now dealt with entirely by Revenue Protection Inspectors), and simply being there to open/close doors and to assist in the event of an emergency- is there a real future for these guards?

I would also argue that if it wasn't for the underground link/loop sections, drivers could even be done away with and have some sort of 'remote' control centre set up within Sandhills IECC due to the self contained nature of the network.

Any thoughts would be appriciated

Since when? Every train I have been on for the last 10 or so years has had the guard collecting revenue. They sell single fixed price tickets depending how many stations you are going.

Where do these station staff come from to dispatch trains? You can't enforce penalty fares if station staff spend all their time on the platform.

I think you are also missing the biggest factor. Unions.

 

[Mojo]

It seems that the privatised railway isn't as good as converting to DOO as BR was, the only major conversion I can think of is on the LTS (c2c), but I am sure there may have been a few other small schemes.

Check on www.rgsonline.co.uk for the exact specifications required for DOO. I think it requires better radios with the ability for the signaller to use the train's PA, amongst other things.

I'm still not entirely decided on it, given modern technology, on urban routes are guards still required? On the other hand they can help with providing better information and making people feel safer, that's provided they don't just sit in the cab all the time! If anything, I'd be in favour of driver operated doors, with a guard still on board (but not hidden away in the back cab) in case of an emergency, and to provide passenger reassurance, but with the driver operating the doors - speeding up station duties.

 

[Pumbaa]

Like ukrob says, unions. I neither see a future for guards, with PIS and RPI becoming more frequent on commuter routes, Guards seem an unnecessary expense. But, unions won't like it!

 

[me123]

On Liverpool locals, I think DOO's a good idea. In Glasgow, all electrics are DOO (with the possible exception of the odd 322?), and things work fine. Indeed, on suburban 156s and 158s the conductor wastes time opening the doors when (s)he could be doing revenue protection; anyone who's used Glasgow Central at peak times will appreciate that the barriers aren't fun.

As has been said, unions are the problem. Staff won't be happy about the change and 2-man operation's always a lot better than strike action.

As Mojo has said, there should still be a role for the guard. I don't see why they can't do revenue protection and be a guard on top of that (doing everything except the doors). The time spent at stations would be decreased, and the guard can focus all attention on the passengers.

I think there'll always be a future, however, for guards on the WCML, ECML and similar routes. Can't begin to think how many cameras you'd need for DOO on an HST!

 

[alex57601]

Unions will naturally be unhappy, but with appropriate negotiation and a suitable payout (and if its a franchisee with other franchises, then perhaps first dibs on transferring within the group if positions are available and getting the union to agree it), then these things can be got around.

As for Merseyrail, DOO makes sense to introduce and implement, although I can't see it happening until new stock is ordered and delivered at least - unless someone is too short-sighted enough to design stock with no provision for possible DOO operation in the future!!!

 

[ukrob]

On the Merseyrail 507 and 508s the guard can (and does) open and close the doors from any position in the train, not just the cabs. However, in tunnel sections, I have never seen them be operated from anywhere other than the rear cab, this applies to curved AND straight platforms. Is there a rulebook reason for this, and if so, how would it be got around if DOO was suggested?

 

[First class]

Firstly, no station staff issue Penalty fares on Merseyrail. Only the RPIs who travel around the network issue them. They may happen to be at Liv Central for an hour or so, so penalty fares are not the problem.

Guards on the Northern Line no longer issue paper tickets, and shortly, as the Ellesmere Port and Chester lines are brought under Penalty Fare rules, (now permit to travel machines are installed at all unstaffed stations), guards will no longer be issuing tickets on the wirral.

merseyrail policy is that the guard must remain in the back whilst underground, to assist passengers to escape through the rear emergency exit, as sideway exit is not possible in the tunnels. The OFF indications are also positioned around the network to be viewed from the rear cab.

Quite simply, the only curved stations are underground, and as I say, getting the station assistants trained up to train dispatch would be fairly easy. That, in conjunction with a CD indicator would be sufficient. Also, like at present, CCTV screens show the curved end of the platform to the guard, so it would be a case of moving them so the driver could see.

 

[ukrob]

Firstly, no station staff issue Penalty fares on Merseyrail. Only the RPIs who travel around the network issue them. They may happen to be at Liv Central for an hour or so, so penalty fares are not the problem.

Guards on the Northern Line no longer issue paper tickets, and shortly, as the Ellesmere Port and Chester lines are brought under Penalty Fare rules, (now permit to travel machines are installed at all unstaffed stations), guards will no longer be issuing tickets on the wirral.

merseyrail policy is that the guard must remain in the back whilst underground, to assist passengers to escape through the rear emergency exit, as sideway exit is not possible in the tunnels. The OFF indications are also positioned around the network to be viewed from the rear cab.

Quite simply, the only curved stations are underground, and as I say, getting the station assistants trained up to train dispatch would be fairly easy. That, in conjunction with a CD indicator would be sufficient. Also, like at present, CCTV screens show the curved end of the platform to the guard, so it would be a case of moving them so the driver could see.

Nobody has said that station staff issue penalty fares.

Re rear cab for the guard, Is it Merseyrail policy, or is it a rulebook requirement, like I already mentioned. If it rulebook then what are the options around it for DOO?

I don't see the relevance of the OFF indicators in this context as it is not only underground stations which have them.

You have completley skirted around one of my main points. How do you operate a penalty fares system if station staff are not selling tickets over 50% of the time as you suggest?

 

[First class]

No station assistants sell tickets now!!!

Current Roles:

Station Assistant: Barriers, checking tickets. Assisting passengers. (would also do dispatch in my plan)

Station Retailers: Issuing tickets through the STAR machine and local PTE stock.

Ticket Inspectors: Issue penalty fares accross the network, but are not permanatently based at a station.

Guard: Opening/Closing doors, giving ready to start signal, and dealing with emergencies.


Only underground dispatch is required due to curved platforms, which the station assistants would do.

It is also only merseyrail policy. The rules generally just want the guard to have an unrestricted view of a signal.
The off indications have been installed at a location on the underground that would be best viewed from the rear cab, hence this is signifigant, as if the guard was in the middle, (trailer), he/she would not get a clear view of either the proceeding/ca signal or the off indicator.

 

[ukrob]

No station assistants sell tickets now!!!

Current Roles:

Station Assistant: Barriers, checking tickets. Assisting passengers. (would also do dispatch in my plan)

Station Retailers: Issuing tickets through the STAR machine and local PTE stock.

Ticket Inspectors: Issue penalty fares accross the network, but are not permanatently based at a station.

Guard: Opening/Closing doors, giving ready to start signal, and dealing with emergencies.


Only underground dispatch is required due to curved platforms, which the station assistants would do.

It is also only merseyrail policy. The rules generally just want the guard to have an unrestricted view of a signal.
The off indications have been installed at a location on the underground that would be best viewed from the rear cab, hence this is signifigant, as if the guard was in the middle, (trailer), he/she would not get a clear view of either the proceeding/ca signal or the off indicator.

I'm using the name station assistant as someone who works at the station, rather than being pedantic.

So basically you are proposing that 67 stations gain at least one extra member of staff for 18 hours every single day in favour of going DOO, even though some of those stations only see a train every half hour in each direction?

 

[First class]

Of course not. I clearly said:

"Only underground dispatch is required due to curved platforms"

No dispatch required at other stations as they are straight.

Are you aware of how it works down South with the mirrors and CCTV at the end of platforms?

Also, it would be much cheaper to employ staff to dispatch trains at ALL the stations than employ guards!! Although this is entirely OTT. Wouldn't hurt though at terminating stations e.g. Chester, West Kirby, New Brighton and the like.

 

[ukrob]

Of course not. I clearly said:

"Only underground dispatch is required due to curved platforms"

No dispatch required at other stations as they are straight.

Are you aware of how it works down South with the mirrors and CCTV at the end of platforms?

Also, it would be much cheaper to employ staff to dispatch trains at ALL the stations than employ guards!! Although this is entirely OTT. Wouldn't hurt though at terminating stations e.g. Chester, West Kirby, New Brighton and the like.

I missed that, granted. Although still incorrect as some underground stations are straight and some overground are curved. I am perfectly aware of how it works, that is why I was questioning why you were suggesting why every station needed dispatch staff to start with

 

[O L Leigh]

There does not need to be station staff to despatch trains at EVERY station. In fact, there doesn't need to be any staff there at all for despatch in order for DOO to work. You can either install CCTV monitors or mirrors if there is likely to be a restricted view, or the driver could simply look back along the train from the side window.

What would need to be changed is the cab radio system. If Miseryrail don't already use it, they will need to install Cab-Secure Radio (CSR) onto all trains and routes as you cannot operate a DOO service without it. However, this in itself is likely to rule out DOO for the foreseeable future as CSR is now an obsolete technology and due to be replaced with GSM-R. Consequently there will almost certainly be no further CSR installations or upgrades. Unless the Miseryrail lines are likely to be bumped-up the list of routes getting GSM-R, DOO won't even be an option until such time as the routes and rolling stock get this system.

The use of "OFF" indicators under the current working arrangements is to give a visual reminder to the guard whether or not they have the signal in order to depart. Without that he/she could just give it two on the bell and send the driver straight past a red. I know it sounds unlikely, but it's not hard to fall into a routine or pattern and for something like this to happen.

Likewise, I'm guessing that the guard travelling in the back cab through the underground sections is in accordance with a local instruction rather than a Rule Book requirement.

On the more general points I would have to say that, in principle, I oppose the spread of DOO. Having a guard means two members of staff per train which makes it easier and safer to deal with emergency situations or disorder on the train, and also ensures revenue protection. But most of all, introducing DOO will inevitably result in job losses. It's not just about what the unions will say, but about real people's livelihoods and how they support their families, and about the level of safety and service that is provided to the passengers. I drive DOO and I won't deny that it can be very easy because I know that I've got to do everything myself so I just get on and do it. However, I wouldn't ever want to suggest that I am pro-DOO because that one benefit does not outweigh all the costs.

O L Leigh

 

[Skie]

I think, as a MR passenger, that DOO isnt the best of ideas. Certainly travelling at night with no guard on a nearly empty train woud discourage some people (and probably encourage the wrong types of people).

Station staff never check tickets of passengers leaving the station (they used to years ago). So the amount of ticketless travel would massively increase if people knew the only chance of being caught is once in a blue moon when the inspectors descend on their station. Avoiding the guards or inspectors on the trains themselves is too easy, and I regularly see obvious fare evaders hop off one set of doors and back on the other to avoid them. Even if they just hop off, its only 15 minutes until the next train.

I think the guards could do with being a bit more visible though. Sometimes they never leave the cabs, though there are some guards who do spend most of their time patrolling the train and chatting to passengers which gives a really good image for the network.

 

[First class]

My point is, though, that Merseyrail guards are not 'conductors' and will shortly lose revenue duties- those that haven't already.

Local instruction is that guards don't leave the cab after a certain time due to staff abuse. Ellesmere Port at night is particularly dangerous.

Why would station assistants at the barriers want to check tickets properly? If they can't sell tickets, can't penalty fare or PACE, and aren't trained in ticketing restrictions/types then it becomes pointless to check if they aren't backed up by people with knowledge.

Soon Merseyrail becomes 'no ticket, no ride'. The Penalty Fare is increasing to £50, additional teams of ticket inspectors have been formed- all unstaffed stations now have means of obtaining tickets...

Additional stations are being barriered, notably Liverpool South Parkway will be barriered entirely.

With stops every minute or so, a guard can't work through a train entirely, and indeed, the penalty fare guidelines state that a guard doing so would undermind the entire scheme. You can't have a guard selling tickets to a carriage of people, ticket inspectors jumping on at the next station, and PF the remaining two carriages!

 

[ukrob]

My point is, though, that Merseyrail guards are not 'conductors' and will shortly lose revenue duties- those that haven't already.

Local instruction is that guards don't leave the cab after a certain time due to staff abuse. Ellesmere Port at night is particularly dangerous.

Why would station assistants at the barriers want to check tickets properly? If they can't sell tickets, can't penalty fare or PACE, and aren't trained in ticketing restrictions/types then it becomes pointless to check if they aren't backed up by people with knowledge.

Soon Merseyrail becomes 'no ticket, no ride'. The Penalty Fare is increasing to £50, additional teams of ticket inspectors have been formed- all unstaffed stations now have means of obtaining tickets...

Additional stations are being barriered, notably Liverpool South Parkway will be barriered entirely.

With stops every minute or so, a guard can't work through a train entirely, and indeed, the penalty fare guidelines state that a guard doing so would undermind the entire scheme. You can't have a guard selling tickets to a carriage of people, ticket inspectors jumping on at the next station, and PF the remaining two carriages!

To clear up any confusion for people outside of the area, guards do NOT sell normal tickets. They sell single tickets with no discounts (including for children), something like £1.50 to the next stop £2 for 2 stops upto £7.50 for seven or so stops. They are NOT standard tickets, and the do still sell these.

With stops every minute or so, a guard can't work through a train entirely, and indeed, the penalty fare guidelines state that a guard doing so would undermind the entire scheme. You can't have a guard selling tickets to a carriage of people, ticket inspectors jumping on at the next station, and PF the remaining two carriages!

That is exactly what happens now, and there are no problems with it. There are not stops 'every minute or so' either once you are out of the city centre, which is when guards pass through the trains.

 

[Skie]

Why would station assistants at the barriers want to check tickets properly? If they can't sell tickets, can't penalty fare or PACE, and aren't trained in ticketing restrictions/types then it becomes pointless to check if they aren't backed up by people with knowledge.

Who said station assistants? The stations with assistants are usually the large ones that already have barriers. The stations I mean are those that the majority of passengers use at one end of their journey that are manned by just one or two staff in the ticket office. Surely they could stand at the door and collect tickets off of the passengers.

And when they do become No Fare No Ride, I dont envy the guards who check tickets then. I've seen plenty of instances where guards have tried to get people off the train (usually kids) and it has caused the entire line to become delayed which MR obviously wont want. And of course if the guards dont check tickets, even irregularly, people cotton on and ticketless travel increases. I see RPI's perhaps once a month, and they are usually just in a large gang stuffed into the guards cab gabbing away (and the security guys do this even more)

 

[RMTGuard]

First class you are talking rubbish.

Guards are required in the back cab throughout the Underground and IT IS in the rulebook as a requirement.

Can't believe somebody would suggest this.

I'll talk more later I'm due back on my train.

 

[metrocammel]

First class you are talking rubbish.

Guards are required in the back cab throughout the Underground and IT IS in the rulebook as a requirement.

Can't believe somebody would suggest this.

I'll talk more later I'm due back on my train.

How can you suggest that, we all know that 'First Class' is / was Merseyrail top brass

 

[ukrob]

How can you suggest that, we all know that 'First Class' is / was Merseyrail top brass

Who seems to think that he is on £100,000k a year and that we are all jealous :roll:

I wonder if it is just a coincidence that he decided to reduce the amount of time on the forum AND change his username to something non-personal at the same time. I'm thinking someone has been watching his behavious on here and isn't too impressed - I certainly wouldn't be if I employed him.

 

[ukrob]

What about the point I made about the guard being in the rear cab? Someone (today) claims it is in the rulebook, you claim it is just a local directive.

Anyone else able to clarify?

 

[First class]

What about the point I made about the guard being in the rear cab? Someone (today) claims it is in the rulebook, you claim it is just a local directive.

Anyone else able to clarify?

Why doesn't somebody read the rule book then?

If anybody can find anywhere that it states it is a compulsory requirement, I'll be extremely surprised.

On that logic, (if it was compulsory), a single tracked tunnel, such as on the HoW line which is quite long would require the conductor to be in the rear cab throughout.

The idea of 'local instruction' is to add things which are a good idea, but not suitable for all environments/operators. Although it is a 'rule' issued by Merseyrail, it is not a Group Standard Rule applicable to all.

 

[ukrob]

Why doesn't somebody read the rule book then?

It would appear the person who contradicted you has done, and your following statement suggests that you haven't:

If anybody can find anywhere that it states it is a compulsory requirement, I'll be extremely surprised.

On that logic, (if it was compulsory), a single tracked tunnel, such as on the HoW line which is quite long would require the conductor to be in the rear cab throughout.

Not necessarily - it would depend what the reasoning for it is, for example it could be to do with headways as opposed to length of tunnel.

 

[First class]

I have scowered the rule book and there is no mention AT ALL.

In case you are unaware, you are able to access it.

Why don't you read it then and tell me that I'm right?

There are quite a few, but obviously that type of statement, (if it existed), would not be in On Track Plant etc... so use common sense. If you really want to make sure, by all means check them.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebook/rulebook_modules.asp

However, as I've said before, the guard is asked by Merseyrail to stay in the rear cab to ensure they have a good view of the OFF signal and to assist in an emergency rather than a specific rule.

UKrob you are a very irritating and inaccurate person. Unfourtunately one of my posts describing my opinion of you was removed.

As with the RMTGuard, I suggest quoting things to back your points up, rather than just saying them. I've provided you with the rule book, so disprove what I've said if you're so sure.

Tell me where I say I earn £100k in salary.

(As for your comment on the guard being in the back because of headways? Arghhhh! As I said previously, 'special circumstances' are taken into account in Local Instructions rather than The Rule Book!!!)

 

[ukrob]

I have scowered the rule book and there is no mention AT ALL.

In case you are unaware, you are able to access it.

Why don't you read it then and tell me that I'm right?

There are quite a few, but obviously that type of statement, (if it existed), would not be in On Track Plant etc... so use common sense. If you really want to make sure, by all means check them.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebook/rulebook_modules.asp

However, as I've said before, the guard is asked by Merseyrail to stay in the rear cab to ensure they have a good view of the OFF signal and to assist in an emergency rather than a specific rule.

UKrob you are a very irritating and inaccurate person. Unfourtunately one of my posts describing my opinion of you was removed.

As with the RMTGuard, I suggest quoting things to back your points up, rather than just saying them. I've provided you with the rule book, so disprove what I've said if you're so sure.

Tell me where I say I earn £100k in salary.

(As for your comment on the guard being in the back because of headways? Arghhhh! As I said previously, 'special circumstances' are taken into account in Local Instructions rather than The Rule Book!!!)

You have some serious issues you need to get sorted. Maybe just the heat is getting to you. Incidentally, I don't need to look at them online, if I was that bothered I would dig them (and all my other junk) out of storage.

Now, maybe you could you tell me how I am 'inaccurate' when I actually asked a question? It is not possible to be inaccurate when asking a question.

You totally missed the point I was making about WHY it could be EITHER in the rulebook or local instructions about headways. It was an EXAMPLE. If there was not so much steam coming out of your ears when reading and replying, you may realise that.

I'm not suprised your 'opinion' of me was removed. You must be pretty immature if you can't express yourself and get your point across without one word insults which have to be removed.

As for your other point, the post in question is here

I was wrong about the £100,000, apologies.

Here are some quotes from it:

You're pathetic, and clearly hold a grudge against railway employees. What? You jealous of our high earnings? Privs?

That was aimed at someone else, so it is clearly not just me you have a problem with, even though I have never been rude to you.

Another:

My financial status means I'm paying 40% tax. Depending on the market, this could rise to the 50% tax rate. Now giving £80,000 in tax freaks me out.

If that is not an attempt at bragging....

I will happily debate with you if you act like an adult. But just remember, like I have said before, you tell everyone who you work for, that this is a public forum, and you don't know who other people work for but are happy to throw around insults and say how poor your own companies customer service is.

People in this industry have been sacked for less. Think before clicking 'Submit Reply' especially if they are one word insults.

 

[First class]

Right, so you've proved me right. Did not mention salary at all. As for the other comments about him being jealous, that more or less echoed other user's comments.

Just said I could have to pay more tax. I can't remember why that was brought up, what thread is that in. 'Financial status' is still correct though, thank you for reminding everybody. Means a lot, lot more than salary though. If you read in context, it was reminding a certain user that rail staff are not so high paid as you think, and was used as an example to show certain taxations. Certainly not a bragging exercise. Made my point that rail staff did not have great pay after deductions. However, you declined to mention that.

Secondly, the customer service email was fair and justified. Just because you may be employed by a company, does not mean you lose the right to comment when you receive a poor customer-orientated response from them. In that instance, I was a customer, not staff.

 

[ukrob]

Secondly, the customer service email was fair and justified. Just because you may be employed by a company, does not mean you lose the right to comment when you receive a poor customer-orientated response from them. In that instance, I was a customer, not staff.

You have decided to tell people who your employer is, therefore you unofficially represent Merseyrail on this site, the fact you were a customer in that case has no relevance. Think of it like it was back at school "whilst in uniform you represent the school even outside of school hours".

Like I have said, people have been sacked for less. I may well be wrong, but as far as I am aware, you are the only person who regularly posts on this site with people knowing your full name and employer. You don't know who I work for, nor is my name Rob . That means I can post what I want about any company (including my own) without fear of a backlash.

 

[313103]

The shame about this thread is that it has turned into (or a continuation of a previous) argument. Let us get back on track with what the discussion is about, it is a shame that the Name Merseyrail was used, i work for LOROL as a Guard and at least until after Olympics the company has decided not to dispense with my services.

However the serious question needs to be answered could the Merseyrail system be converted to DOO. The answer is quite a simple one and that is YES you can if you take aside all the issues that some have mentioned. SIMPLES!!

The point i want to make is do the people of Merseyside want DOO in their metro services? I would think that most would say NO!

O L Leigh has made possibly the most rational position on this issue and yet i find it quite strange that no one has commented on his post. Well said O L Leigh.

Can we stop the bickering on this thread, otherwise it might as well be locked. This is a serious debate.

 

[rower40]

I would also argue that if it wasn't for the underground link/loop sections, drivers could even be done away with and have some sort of 'remote' control centre set up within Sandhills IECC due to the self contained nature of the network.

Driverless Train

But seriously; it's surely the above-ground sections that pose the challenge to automatic trains. I'm sure H&SE would have something to say about trains without drivers going across Level Crossings. Docklands Light Railway still has a conductor aboard, and it's a wholly segregated network. (And it DOES go underground at Bank.)