Merseyrail Contactless payments

[Bletchleyite]

I'm very much assuming this will come with entirely redesigned fare zones and ticketing all round.

Why? The existing ticketing is very simple - Anytime Day Single and Return, day ticket and Saveaway.

Logic would be to charge Anytime Day Singles and cap at the day ticket while it's Merseyrail only.

Only thing they'd need to change is to make the singles half the returns which they presently aren't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==

It's not more complicated than London. Considerably less so, indeed.

Edge cases don't need worrying about as most people won't do them. Indeed I would still be surprised to see many people bar enthusiasts doing Hunts X-South Parkway then changing onto the mainline into Lime St, because you walk almost as far doing that (and waste far more time) than just walking from Central to Lime St. But even if people did do that you can easily pick them up because you pass two gatelines.

 

[sprunt]

If there were no barriers people wouldn’t tap in.

How does that differ from people not buying a paper ticket if there's no barrier?

Also, you keep specifically mentioning the Underground with respect to London - are you not aware that a pay as you go tap in/tap out system exists for non-TfL services (but interchangeably with them) within (and even in som cases slightly beyond) London? There's no reason it would be any more complicated to do with Merseyrail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there were no barriers people wouldn’t tap in.

If people don't tap in and are checked then they get a Penalty Fare or are prosecuted.

I know this Forum loves finding holes in things, but Merseyrail and the Metropolitan Line/London Overground are really not very different, and Metrolink does it in a totally open system with no gatelines anywhere.

 

[Red Rover]

Why? The existing ticketing is very simple - Anytime Day Single and Return, day ticket and Saveaway.

Logic would be to charge Anytime Day Singles and cap at the day ticket while it's Merseyrail only.

Only thing they'd need to change is to make the singles half the returns which they presently aren't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==

It's not more complicated than London. Considerably less so, indeed.

Edge cases don't need worrying about as most people won't do them. Indeed I would still be surprised to see many people bar enthusiasts doing Hunts X-South Parkway then changing onto the mainline into Lime St, because you walk almost as far doing that (and waste far more time) than just walking from Central to Lime St. But even if people did do that you can easily pick them up because you pass two gatelines.

How do different toc’s get the revenue when the train service starts from outside Merseyside? The split now is difficult enough inside Merseyside with the saveaways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do different toc’s get the revenue when the train service starts from outside Merseyside? The split now is difficult enough inside Merseyside with the saveaways.

How do different TOCs get the revenue from an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single ticket?

That. It being tap-in tap-out doesn't change anything.

(The answer is ORCATS. I have no idea what it stands for, but it distributes revenue based on the timetable and on passenger surveys).

 

[Hadders]

Frankly Merseyside is crying out for a contactless solution.

Take a look at London where contactless works seamlessly across many National Rail operators, London Underground, London Overground, Elizabeth Line and London Buses and has done for many years.

 

[Djgr]

How do different toc’s get the revenue when the train service starts from outside Merseyside? The split now is difficult enough inside Merseyside with the saveaways.

Has this problem not already been solved for London and South East?

 

[Red Rover]

If people don't tap in and are checked then they get a Penalty Fare or are prosecuted.

I know this Forum loves finding holes in things, but Merseyrail and the Metropolitan Line/London Overground are really not very different, and Metrolink does it in a totally open system with no gatelines anywhere.

It’s not holes per se it’s a question of how it can or will work in the current climate and situation of merseyrail under private ownership, northern with the government as owner of last resort and then including the bus and ferries, TFL is well TFL, there isn’t an equivalent yet on Merseyside. Who gets what and how will revenue be protected if it’s tap on and off and people simply won’t do either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Frankly Merseyside is crying out for a contactless solution.

Take a look at London where contactless works seamlessly across many National Rail operators, London Underground, London Overground, Elizabeth Line and London Buses and has done for many years.

The whole country is. It's a real pity we couldn't have a proper national system rather than basing Oval on the TfL system.

 

[Red Rover]

Has this problem not already been solved for London and South East?

I haven’t a clue, does anyone know the split/share of money, how many toc’s, buses and ferries are involved in this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not holes per se it’s a question of how it can or will work in the current climate and situation of merseyrail under private ownership, northern with the government as owner of last resort and then including the bus and ferries, TFL is well TFL, there isn’t an equivalent yet on Merseyside. Who gets what and how will revenue be protected if it’s tap on and off and people simply won’t do either.

So I buy an Aughton Park to Manchester Anytime Day Return. The journey could go via any of about 5 Permitted Routes and involve Merseyrail, Northern, TPE, EMR and if I really wanted West Midlands Trains. They manage that just fine using ORCATS.

Working out tap-in tap-out purely on the Northern and Wirral Lines, or even on the whole map, is a hugely easier problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==

Has this problem not already been solved for London and South East?

It was solved before anyone had even invented contactless payment cards. It's called ORCATS.

That you tap in and tap out doesn't matter. The way you do it is exactly the same as a paper ticket.

 

[Red Rover]

How do different TOCs get the revenue from an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single ticket?

That. It being tap-in tap-out doesn't change anything.

(The answer is ORCATS. I have no idea what it stands for, but it distributes revenue based on the timetable and on passenger surveys

So I buy an Aughton Park to Manchester Anytime Day Return. The journey could go via any of about 5 Permitted Routes and involve Merseyrail, Northern, TPE, EMR and if I really wanted West Midlands Trains. They manage that just fine using ORCATS.

Working out tap-in tap-out purely on the Northern and Wirral Lines, or even on the whole map, is a hugely easier problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==



It was solved before anyone had even invented contactless payment cards. It's called ORCATS.

That you tap in and tap out doesn't matter. The way you do it is exactly the same as a paper

The whole country is. It's a real pity we couldn't have a proper national system rather than basing Oval on the TfL system.

I get what you’re saying but we don’t as it stands have the equivalent of TFL on Merseyside, the closest we have is merseytravel but they don’t obviously have northern trains. And how would tap on/off be monitored? Barriers?

 

[Djgr]

I haven’t a clue, does anyone know the split/share of money, how many toc’s, buses and ferries are involved in this?

The answer is yes, obviously. The initial phase does not involve the ferries or buses, as has been already stated on this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==

Let's be clear, the biggest challenge that this initiative has going forward is any involvement from those incompetent and dubious clowns in Westminster.

 

[Red Rover]

The answer is yes, obviously. The initial phase does not involve the ferries or buses, as has been already stated on this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==

Let's be clear, the biggest challenge that this initiative has going forward is any involvement from those incompetent and dubious clowns in Westminster.

Would all stations have barriers? Or will there be a reliance on honesty?

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Red Rover I would suggest a trip to London and Manchester to see how it works there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==

Would all stations have barriers? Or will there be a reliance on honesty?

A combination of gate lines and random checks as it is with paper tickets now.

 

[Hadders]

It’s not holes per se it’s a question of how it can or will work in the current climate and situation of merseyrail under private ownership, northern with the government as owner of last resort and then including the bus and ferries, TFL is well TFL, there isn’t an equivalent yet on Merseyside. Who gets what and how will revenue be protected if it’s tap on and off and people simply won’t do either.

London isn’t all TfL.

Off the top of my head Southeastern, GTR, SWR, GWR, LNR, Chiltern, EMR, Greater Anglia and c2c are all part of the contactless system. If they can manage to apportion the fares paid by passengers across the London contactless/Oyster system to the appropriate operator then I’m sure a Merseyside system could be designed to do similar across the operators in that area.

 

[Djgr]

Would all stations have barriers? Or will there be a reliance on honesty?

Very few stations on Merseyrail have barriers now. Top of my head-Liverpool city centre ones, Hamilton Square, South Parkway, Southport, Chester

 

[sprunt]

if it’s tap on and off and people simply won’t do either.

Why not? They do on systems without barriers on many systems across the country. Why would this one be any different? And again, how would that differ from existing stations where there are no barriers? If there are no barriers some percentage of passengers will try to get away with not paying, but that's true no matter what they payment system is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who gets what and how will revenue be protected if it’s tap on and off and people simply won’t do either.

Then they'll get Penalty Fared or prosecuted eventually. Or if they tap in and not out they just get charged a maximum fare.

It isn't different from paper tickets. The only thing that differs is that you need a machine to read whether someone has tapped in or not rather than just looking at a paper ticket.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Frankly Merseyside is crying out for a contactless solution.

Take a look at London where contactless works seamlessly across many National Rail operators, London Underground, London Overground, Elizabeth Line and London Buses and has done for many years.

The whole country is. It's a real pity we couldn't have a proper national system rather than basing Oval on the TfL system.

Though at least because it's based on TfL's system, the Oval system is likely to work and survive contact with reality.

The multiple reports on here of issues with GTR's keyGo system for instance don't fill one with confidence that TOCs or the rail industry (as it is presently constituted) could implement such a thing!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes but my point is as how can a validator know that

Very easily, if it is programmed correctly.

In London, if you travel from Gatwick to Victoria the fare you are charged depending on which gateline you exit Victoria station from.

So the system could very easily charge a different fare if you go Hunts Cross-Lime St Low Level compared to Hunts Cross-South Parkway-Lime St Main Line (or indeed Hunts Cross-Lime St Main Line direct)

 

[Foxcover]

Would Heswall and Upton (Neston too even though over the boundary?) also get tap-in, tap-out? Would make ticketing to Liverpool a whole lot easier than today on the Borderlands line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would Heswall and Upton (Neston too even though over the boundary?) also get tap-in, tap-out? Would make ticketing to Liverpool a whole lot easier than today on the Borderlands line.

I would suspect it will start as Northern and Wirral Lines only then expand later. Start simple.

 

[etr221]

Something to remember is that contactless (or whatever: Oyster in London,...) touch in, touch out systems are a different paradigm for fare payment than conventional system. When you touch in you are (effectively) saying 'I am starting a journey to somewhere, via some route, and I promise to pay for it when I complete it'. and then when you complete it, you touch out: the system then calculates, from the touch data as to where your journey was to and from what the fare is - which may mean it has to make an assumption as to which way you went, and collects it. There is then a back office part as to how that should be divided up...

Then they'll get Penalty Fared or prosecuted eventually. Or if they tap in and not out they just get charged a maximum fare.

It isn't different from paper tickets. The only thing that differs is that you need a machine to read whether someone has tapped in or not rather than just looking at a paper ticket.

No, it is very different from paper tickets, which are pre paid for a pre-defined journey from 'here' to 'there' - via some pre defined route. That are used correctly or not.

Touch in touch out is for an undefined journey from 'here' to 'somewhere' via an unknown route - and are post paid based on the journey you made: from where you started to where you ended it, and how you are assumed to have made it.

Which is fine for relatively restricted, closed systems - where touch in and touch out are both at barriers, so fairly definite. Problems arise as they expand, meet up, and open out. So you have issues over maximum fare levels, multiple possible routes, people not understanding how far the system(s) go (so coming to touch out, and finding they can't) ....

 

[Tetchytyke]

how will revenue be protected if it’s tap on and off and people simply won’t do either

They do in Manchester. Because if they don’t tap in and they get caught it’s a £120 penalty, and if they don’t tap out they get charged the maximum fare.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Very few stations on Merseyrail have barriers now. Top of my head-Liverpool city centre ones, Hamilton Square, South Parkway, Southport, Chester

My understanding from previous threads on this forum is that this is seen as adequate as overwhelmingly all journeys start or end at one of these stations - so barring gate jumpers / pushing through, everyone's ticket will be checked at one or the other of the start or end of their journey.

Assuming a Merseyrail Electrics-only system for the moment, it's easy to see how a maximum fare system could be implemented: if you tap in and out (at least one end presumably being a freestanding unit without a gate attached) you pay whatever the fare is between start and end: if you only tap in but don't tap out you pay the maximum fare from your known origin (tap in Chester, don't tap out - you pay the fare to Birkdale) and if you tap out but not in you pay the maximum fare chargeable at your destination from the furthest possible origin (don't tap in, tap out Chester - you pay the fare from Birkdale).

Add buses and ferries and capping and it gets more complicated - but the baseline is pretty straightforward, as long as the assumption that almost all journeys start or end at a barriered station is sound.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Touch in touch out is for an undefined journey from 'here' to 'somewhere' via an unknown route - and are post paid based on the journey you made: from where you started to where you ended it, and how you are assumed to have made it.

I don’t see how any of this is different to Manchester Metrolink?

It’s also worth noting that Arriva Merseyside already do daily capping. You don’t get a ticket when you pay by contactless on Arriva Merseyside, the back office totals your journeys for the day and applies the relevant fare cap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it is very different from paper tickets, which are pre paid for a pre-defined journey from 'here' to 'there' - via some pre defined route. That are used correctly or not.

Touch in touch out is for an undefined journey from 'here' to 'somewhere' via an unknown route - and are post paid based on the journey you made: from where you started to where you ended it, and how you are assumed to have made it.

We were talking about revenue protection. For that it doesn't differ - you either tapped in or you didn't, just the same as you either purchased a ticket before boarding or you didn't. The same system of Penalty Fares and prosecutions is used to enforce.

One exception: you can just automatically apply a maximum fare or standard fare if you touched in and not out.

 

[Djgr]

I don’t see how any of this is different to Manchester Metrolink?

It’s also worth noting that Arriva Merseyside already do daily capping. You don’t get a ticket when you pay by contactless on Arriva Merseyside, the back office totals your journeys for the day and applies the relevant fare cap.

Of course the plan is that there will no such entity as Arriva Merseyside in several years, certainly from a customer viewpoint (as per London, Manchester).

 

[Krokodil]

About time, anyway. E-tickets too, and they can join the 20th century?

I wish London Underground would accept Aztec codes, at least at interchanges where Maltese Cross journeys are made.

We all know Rotherham wants a metro style system but how can that be implemented on heavy rail?

In the Netherlands tap-on, tap-off is pretty much universal across all modes of transport. The weight of the rolling stock is not relevant.

On this forum it feels like Merseytravel are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Just like the rest of the railway then.

It’s not holes per se it’s a question of how it can or will work in the current climate and situation of merseyrail under private ownership, northern with the government as owner of last resort and then including the bus and ferries, TFL is well TFL, there isn’t an equivalent yet on Merseyside. Who gets what and how will revenue be protected if it’s tap on and off and people simply won’t do either.

I believe that I can sum up your objections as "not invented here".

Would all stations have barriers? Or will there be a reliance on honesty?

No more or less honesty than there is at the moment. If you are checked onboard and haven't tapped in you get a penalty fare. If you tap out without having tapped in (or vice versa) you are charged for an incomplete journey.