Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Bletchleyite]

Merseytravel borrowed the money from the EU Investment bank to buy the trains, then Brexit happened and Stadler a European train manufacturer with nil history of 3rd rail in the UK was selected. To be fair though Stadler trains are excellent trains, I think the problem with the 777s is that Merseytravel / Merseyrail have ruined the base product with there own specifications.

There isn't a base product, you can have what you like, that's Stadler's USP.

The bodged-on method of dispatch has posed some issues, but I'm surprised doors have, they're not non standard.

Third rail is nothing magic, Stadler have done DC units for Swiss private railways before, admittedly DC overhead but that's really just a matter of where you put a piece of metal.

 

[OL-3944]

There isn't a base product, you can have what you like, that's Stadler's USP.

The bodged-on method of dispatch has posed some issues, but I'm surprised doors have, they're not non standard.

Third rail is nothing magic, Stadler have done DC units for Swiss private railways before, admittedly DC overhead but that's really just a matter of where you put a piece of metal.

Definitely something wrong with the contract side of things though. When the windscreen wipers and headlights were failing they had to take units out of service due to lack of spare parts. The parts arrived at Kirkdale depot via “man in a van” from Poland. So nothing procured locally.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Definitely something wrong with the contract side of things though. When the windscreen wipers and headlights were failing they had to take units out of service due to lack of spare parts. The parts arrived at Kirkdale depot via “man in a van” from Poland. So nothing procured locally.

Don't forget we don't make much here in the UK. I doubt Stadler use much from manufacturers local to them either.

 

[stuu]

Don't forget we don't make much here in the UK. I doubt Stadler use much from manufacturers local to them either.

That's really not true though, the UK is the 9th largest manufacturing nation worldwide

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[Geeves]

It's strange how the 507s only became knackered after Stadler took over maintenance of them....prior to that they where extremely reliable. Funny that.....

It's a similar story as to when CAF took over in Chester. When you have something set up for 20 (or 40 years in Merseyrail's case) to suddenly clear out all the stores, move all the equipment and have the old hands leave you're bound to have issues. I'm not sure there's really anything sinister going on. The guys working there will be learning as they go, so hopefully like elsewhere things will pick up. The 195s at Northern have settled down now after a few years for example

 

[irish_rail]

It's a similar story as to when CAF took over in Chester. When you have something set up for 20 (or 40 years in Merseyrail's case) to suddenly clear out all the stores, move all the equipment and have the old hands leave you're bound to have issues. I'm not sure there's really anything sinister going on. The guys working there will be learning as they go, so hopefully like elsewhere things will pick up. The 195s at Northern have settled down now after a few years for example

The trouble is there seems to be real design flaws on the 777s, not to mention the "seating" ( if you can even call it that).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The trouble is there seems to be real design flaws on the 777s, not to mention the "seating" ( if you can even call it that).

The interior is somewhat flawed, as are other elements of the "soft product" - but none of those explain unreliability of the basic product which is used all over the place.

 

[irish_rail]

The interior is somewhat flawed, as are other elements of the "soft product" - but none of those explain unreliability of the basic product which is used all over the place.

It seems this issue of when the train is crowded the doors won't open and close is a big design flaw.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The interior is somewhat flawed, as are other elements of the "soft product" - but none of those explain unreliability of the basic product which is used all over the place.

One thing I see with some fleets is that the time spent inactive between production and use can be long enough to allow deterioration of various things - particularly electrics. I cannot recall how long 777s have spent languishing in sidings.

 

[lrailadventure]

14:47 Liverpool to Ormskirk (operated with 777002) has been cancelled due to a wiper fault .. I haven't heard that excuse yet, normally PIS, onboard safety system, door or step faults.

Reliability has become awful again recently, just after things were (slowly) starting to look up for the units.

 

[Northerngirl]

It's a similar story as to when CAF took over in Chester. When you have something set up for 20 (or 40 years in Merseyrail's case) to suddenly clear out all the stores, move all the equipment and have the old hands leave you're bound to have issues. I'm not sure there's really anything sinister going on. The guys working there will be learning as they go, so hopefully like elsewhere things will pick up. The 195s at Northern have settled down now after a few years for example

I think they also didn't expect to have to keep the 507s on for so long, especially with covid. (The axle bearing? faults at the start of the year spring to mind) Why teach all the new staff how to fix trains that should have been gone within a few months.

 

[Prime586]

I think they also didn't expect to have to keep the 507s on for so long, especially with covid. (The axle bearing? faults at the start of the year spring to mind) Why teach all the new staff how to fix trains that should have been gone within a few months.

The sudden spate of bearing failures (over 300 bearings were replaced) between May to July 2022 were not due to lack of maintenance, it was found to be caused by pitting due to arcing from excess current conduction through the bearings from the wheels. In the official report from Merseytravel it mentions that monitoring equipment was fitted to two units, which found consistent issues with overcurrent on the northbound track around Hall Road and NR were then asked to investigate.

There was some speculation that it was due to the power supply upgrades that were installed around the network to satisfy the higher minimum voltage requirement of the Class 777s.

 

[chiltern trev]

The sudden spate of bearing failures (over 300 bearings were replaced) between May to July 2022 were not due to lack of maintenance, it was found to be caused by pitting due to arcing from excess current conduction through the bearings from the wheels. In the official report from Merseytravel it mentions that monitoring equipment was fitted to two units, which found consistent issues with overcurrent on the northbound track around Hall Road and NR were then asked to investigate.

There was some speculation that it was due to the power supply upgrades that were installed around the network to satisfy the higher minimum voltage requirement of the Class 777s.

Is there a follow up/further report to the initial bearing report?

 

[karlbbb]

14:47 Liverpool to Ormskirk (operated with 777002) has been cancelled due to a wiper fault .. I haven't heard that excuse yet, normally PIS, onboard safety system, door or step faults.

Reliability has become awful again recently, just after things were (slowly) starting to look up for the units.

I got on 777031 (or 032) earlier today, and the wiper blade for the driver's window was hanging off and flapping around the side of the train - two maintenance guys appeared at Kirkdale and were leaning over to fix it. Train continued so I assume it was successful.

 

[childwallblues]

When did 777031 enter service?

 

[Vespa]

I've travelled on the 777 several times since introduction had two failures and two cancellations, my last trip was Liverpool to Chester and back, no issues.

It's a matter of time before teething problem are ironed out, it was the same when 507/508 were first introduced.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've travelled on the 777 several times since introduction had two failures and two cancellations, my last trip was Liverpool to Chester and back, no issues.

It's a matter of time before teething problem are ironed out, it was the same when 507/508 were first introduced.

My bold. People do tend to forget the past. But I think an extra problem is the complexity of new trains and the optimism of decision makers (possibly just outside the railway sphere)..

 

[prod_pep]

It's a matter of time before teething problem are ironed out, it was the same when 507/508 were first introduced.

No one is claiming the 507s didn't have some early niggles, but there are scales of problems and they don't compare with the debacle of 777 introduction.

Conversations with those who remember the 507s' introduction, as well as extensive reading of local press reports, suggest nothing like the level of issues the 777s have suffered.

 

[Bevan Price]

Can't find any previous reports of it in service, but 777.152 was on the xx:35 Central - Headbolt Lane around midday today (6 November)

 

[lrailadventure]

It's a matter of time before teething problem are ironed out, it was the same when 507/508 were first introduced.

No one is denying the issues with introductions for 507s and 508s, however the 777s have so much more technology on them, that there is more for them to go wrong. When things go wrong due to the sheer complexity, drivers and train managers can't use the traditional methods of hit it really hard, or turn it off and on again to fix them (they can try doing controlled shutdowns, but usually not successful from what I've witnessed) and continue the service. Most faults now cannot be rectified at the platform, which means a lot of services, particularly on the Headbolt Lane line (where trains are failing to change over power modes successfully amongst all the other faults non-battery trains suffer) cannot run. That is leading a significant amount of cancellations and the regular travelling public who rely on these services are becoming increasingly frustrated. They've been in service for most of the year and there's still not much sign of improvement..

 

[karlbbb]

I was at Moorfields this afternoon, and whoever was on the microphone went onto the PA to say "thanks to a door fault on the so-called state of the art new trains, the Ormskirk service is running approximately 5 minutes late".

Seems even the staff turning to open rebellion.

 

[M28361M]

I saw 777152 at Liverpool Central earlier this evening waiting to depart on a Headbolt Lane service.

Is it just me, or is there something strange about the way the windows have steamed up? Is it normal for that to happen?


(Image shows a close up of the side of 777152, showing three windows with what looks like condensation, preventing a proper view of the inside)

 

[DLAYKEGER]

I have been holding off from the debate as a user. I am pleased when a 777 is on the Chester / Ellesmere Port line, rather than a crush loaded 507/8 3 car with someone backing into me for 20mins. 777 are not perfect with some squeeling on curves and the seats don't match my posture but its not too bad. AC Is great compared to a warm 507/8. We don't seem to have door issues on over crowded trains but I may be lucky but chester trains can be packed. The destination screens are working and I think overall they are bedding in. It is slightly different for my wife using the Headbolt lane line, but that has been an own goal as they rushed the opening without enough trains for a 30min service, never mind a 15 min service. It seems Headbolt lane opened too early with trains rolled out on the Wirral at the same time.

 

[jamesst]

I have been holding off from the debate as a user. I am pleased when a 777 is on the Chester / Ellesmere Port line, rather than a crush loaded 507/8 3 car with someone backing into me for 20mins. 777 are not perfect with some squeeling on curves and the seats don't match my posture but its not too bad. AC Is great compared to a warm 507/8. We don't seem to have door issues on over crowded trains but I may be lucky but chester trains can be packed. The destination screens are working and I think overall they are bedding in. It is slightly different for my wife using the Headbolt lane line, but that has been an own goal as they rushed the opening without enough trains for a 30min service, never mind a 15 min service. It seems Headbolt lane opened too early with trains rolled out on the Wirral at the same time.

Contrary to what some of the posters on here want to believe they are finally starting to bed in. Get the battery ones sorted and it should become a good unit.
Anyways the Chester/Ellesmere Port line should be solely 777 operated from next week followed by the West Kirby line later in the year then New Brightons and finally Southports in the early to mid part of 2024.

 

[M28361M]

Statement from the Mayor on Merseytravel's website:-

“We can confirm that Mayor Rotheram met with the Chief Executive of train manufacturer Stadler yesterday afternoon. In what was a full and frank exchange of views the Mayor made clear, in no uncertain terms, that current performance of the fleet roll-out had been frustratingly poor and demanded immediate improvements for passengers.

“While we are all exceptionally proud of the investment we’ve made in the country’s first publicly owned trains in a generation, we are aware that the standards of service specifically on the Kirkby line have fallen well below the high standards that passengers rightly expect.

“During the introduction of any new technology, such as the battery powered fleet, initial problems are to be expected. However, particularly since the opening of the new £80m Headbolt Lane station, the new trains servicing it have been very unreliable and the Mayor and Combined Authority officers have repeatedly raised concerns about the level of performance with Stadler and also urged Merseyrail as the train operator to do everything possible to minimise disruption.

“The Mayor sought assurances that the level of service and reliability would improve (as initial teething problems are resolved). Promised performance improvements have not been delivered to date and the CA will be holding commercial discussions to identify appropriate compensation for passengers for the disruption caused.

“The Mayor will be making an announcement on what this looks like in the near future. It is our hope – and belief – that these months of disruption will soon be behind us and passengers will enjoy decades of service from a modern, accessible and innovative fleet of trains.”

Good to see an acknowledgment, although I'd argue it's a bit later than it should have been.

 

[WatcherZero]

Rotheram has been on local radio this morning apologising and saying he would hold Stadler to account for unacceptable performance, also covered on Northwest Today.

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[Huntscross]

Rotheram has been on local radio this morning apologising and saying he would hold Stadler to account for unacceptable performance, also covered on Northwest Today.

Rotherham and Merseyrail need to take some responsibility too. Rushing Headbolt Lane and migrating new trains to the Wirral lines for a few positive headlines are the reason the Kirkby line is a mess.

 

[Vinnym]

Rotherham and Merseyrail need to take some responsibility too. Rushing Headbolt Lane and migrating new trains to the Wirral lines for a few positive headlines are the reason the Kirkby line is a mess.

They have been smoked out after months of hiding, what has happened on the Kirkby line has been an absolute disgrace.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They have been smoked out after months of hiding, what has happened on the Kirkby line has been an absolute disgrace.

I suspect the long planned run down (and going off lease) of 507s and 508s has given everyone very little to hide behind !. Its becoming 777s or nothing.

 

[Bikeman78]

777014 on 2C23 had a problem at Birkenhead North. After half an hour, it ran empty to Chester and then back in to service there. 508103 on 2C24 was stuck in the tunnel for 15 minutes. Seems odd to let it depart from Hamilton Square when it had nowhere to go.