Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[8A Rail]

Forgot about the latest Class 777 arrivals from the continent at the end of last month (777019, 023 and 031). Now added to the collection below which makes 29 in total.

Kirkdale C.S. = 001 to 019 inclusive, 023, 031, 036, 049, 140, 142, 144, 146, 148 and 150.

 

[Parjon]

I believe they took a passenger survey when the trains were in development, which expressed an overwhelming preference for unidirectional bus type seating. I don't understand this at all and would have much preferred the S-stock layout of a mix of facing bays and longitudinal seating. After all, the nature of most of Merseyrail is very similar to the outer reaches of the Met, journey times are similar, and the lack of toilets doesn't seem to be a problem. I can't remember how well padded the seats are though.

Yes that was the report commissioned.

I exaggerate when I say pensioners, but you can see here in the methodology that no core city passengers were asked. Just people in Southport and West Kirby.

Future Merseyrail rolling stock – what passengers want - Transport Focus

Passenger Focus considers it vital for passengers to be involved in the design of new trains at the earliest opportunity. Without proper consultation at th

www.transportfocus.org.uk

Personally I think it a complete waste of time and money to consultations like this anyway. We know what works already, and all they needed to do is copy it.

 

[Djgr]

I believe they took a passenger survey when the trains were in development, which expressed an overwhelming preference for unidirectional bus type seating. I don't understand this at all and would have much preferred the S-stock layout of a mix of facing bays and longitudinal seating. After all, the nature of most of Merseyrail is very similar to the outer reaches of the Met, journey times are similar, and the lack of toilets doesn't seem to be a problem. I can't remember how well padded the seats are though.

I believe the preference was for facing bays rather than longitudinal seating, on the basis that people wanted to talk to one another (a fundamental cultural difference from the Tube!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do you mean by "core city passengers"? The innersuburban stations on Merseyrail are not well used compared to the outer ones. I do agree it is comparable to the Metropolitan Line (or the Lizzie) though.

What I suspect people didn't want, though, was to stand, and there is no need for Merseyrail to be running standee trains as passenger numbers aren't enough to need that. Hence a layout with a higher number of seats than the S8s.

 

[prod_pep]

S-stock seating isn't brilliantly comfortable but definitely is better than 777 seats. The transverse layout of S-stock would have been adequate for most Merseyrail journeys but not longitudinal given the considerable length of many journeys on the longer branches.

One extra variable is how comfortable the 'tombstone' seat design is on the refurbished 507/8s. I find them excellent and the extra space between them is most definitely a godsend on busy journeys.

 

[M28361M]

With the heatwave over the past few days I have seen a few people on Twitter complaining about non-functioning air-conditioning.

Can you get the air con sorted on these trains it’s really not on you’re gonna have people collapsing

https://twitter.com/jackied92116733/status/1699818218297155871

@merseyrail
is there any reason why the air conditioning hasn’t been turned on today? New train feels like an oven.

https://twitter.com/johnthemurph/status/1699729782743703999

@merseyrail
hi, any chance of the air con on the 1735 from Liverpool to Kirkby? Roasting!

https://twitter.com/DBrisco72/status/1699464433720836567

@merseyrail
little to no aircon on the trains days like we're having at the moment is mental. No option to open the windows on the new trains so it's important!

https://twitter.com/MWR26/status/1699675586602451058

You are going to have people collapsing on 17:35 to Kirkby if you don’t get some cool air in the train!
@merseyrail
brand new train, no opening windows and it’s stifling. What happened to the air on and state of the art?

https://twitter.com/CharlieIDIC/status/1699463224138027194

Looks like most of these were travelling on the Kirkby line so perhaps just one train with it not working, but not a good thing in the current weather.

 

[Parjon]

Interestingly, Newcastle are going longitudinal with their variant.

Re above air con, I was on one today that thankfully had it on but I had wondered about what it might be like should it fail. Sealed unit plus no air con... No thanks!!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly, Newcastle are going longitudinal with their variant.

The Metro covers a much smaller area than Merseyrail (Newcastle is tiny compared with Merseyside) and average journeys are typically shorter (the one longish line out to Sunderland is an outlier), so a standee train makes more sense there.

Think of the Metro as an U Bahn and Merseyrail as an S Bahn. In Germany you'll see comfort differences between the two just as you do here.

 

[Killingworth]

The Metro covers a much smaller area than Merseyrail (Newcastle is tiny compared with Merseyside) and average journeys are typically shorter (the one longish line out to Sunderland is an outlier), so a standee train makes more sense there.

Think of the Metro as an U Bahn and Merseyrail as an S Bahn. In Germany you'll see comfort differences between the two just as you do here.

It takes over an hour from South Hylton to Newcastle Airport, about the same as Southport to Hunts Cross . Routes out to South Shields and Tynemouth will be as long as many on Merseyrail.

The Tyne and Wear Metro comparrd with Merseyrail is smaller but hardly tiny.

 

[Parjon]

Agreed. They are pretty much identical.

 

[8A Rail]

What do you mean by "core city passengers"? The innersuburban stations on Merseyrail are not well used compared to the outer ones. I do agree it is comparable to the Metropolitan Line (or the Lizzie) though.

What I suspect people didn't want, though, was to stand, and there is no need for Merseyrail to be running standee trains as passenger numbers aren't enough to need that. Hence a layout with a higher number of seats than the S8s.

When 'Parjon' quoted 'core city passengers', in my reply I interpreted them as people who travel in and out of the city centre for work and social activities rather than people who live in or very close to the city centre.

 

[777]

If you really prefer to drive, I guess you don't need an excuse?

Reason, not excuse.

Exactly this. These trains were a golden opportunity to make public transport a more attractive option than driving and make life better for everyone. I can't think of a good reason for seating to have actually got worse given that everything else got better. It's like giving someone an expensive pair of shoes half a size too small and telling them "they look great and will get you to work so stop moaning".

Meanwhile, on topic.... The 07:53 out of New Brighton was not a 777 as it usually is and the 08:23 was cancelled citing "shortage of drivers". I guess than might actually mean drivers who have completed training on the 777s?

 

[Vespa]

It takes over an hour from South Hylton to Newcastle Airport, about the same as Southport to Hunts Cross . Routes out to South Shields and Tynemouth will be as long as many on Merseyrail.

The Tyne and Wear Metro comparrd with Merseyrail is smaller but hardly tiny.

From memory if I recall Newcastle metro is two loops Newcastle and Sunderland interconnecting in the city's underground stations.

 

[Killingworth]

From memory if I recall Newcastle metro is two loops Newcastle and Sunderland interconnecting in the city's underground stations.

From online see a selection of maps; https://images.app.goo.gl/GuFJ7nbh4JxZjrhn8

 

[Bikeman78]

Contrast that with the outward journey on the 507, the northern approach to Sandhills had the suspension hitting the bump stops, with horrible loud 'bangs' after every track joint. That particular unit must be absolutely knackered?

Simply needs the suspension adjusting. Most of them will clatter along quite happily at 50-60 mph along the jointed track south of Formby without bottoming out. Some of them make a lot of interesting hissing/squeaking noises in the process.

 

[Pacef8]

A 777 heading past bebington just now.

 

[JonathanH]

A 777 heading past bebington just now.

This? 5T57 1838 Kirkdale C.S. to New Brighton

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:92674/2023-09-08/detailed

 

[Statto]

This? 5T57 1838 Kirkdale C.S. to New Brighton

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:92674/2023-09-08/detailed

Interesting that was scheduled to do a second round trip to Chester, but didn't do so because it was so late. & that's after leaving the depot late too.

 

[Djgr]

A highly successful 777 trip from Moorfields to Ormskirk just now

 

[Pacef8]

Another test run just now heading fast in the hooton direction.

 

[M28361M]

777003 worked an additional service, 2T57 Chester-Liverpool-Chester tonight. First passenger service on the Chester line. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:93159/2023-09-09

 

[Ben Anslow]

Could they have been "muzzled"? I know with the IETs the original take off speed has been somewhat reduced, (most likely due to catching passengers unaware who then fell over whilst stowing luggage, or maybe to reduce engine wear). Maybe on the 777s by reducing the acceleration they are hoping to increase reliability? Just a thought from a bystander, as I know nothing about electric trains too be fair!

Reminds me of when 195’s were first introduced to northern when drivers were new to them they always used to brake ridiculously hard to the point I once fell over with my bike before getting off

 

[Statto]

I'm at Moorfields now waiting fot the Kirkby train only to find it's been canceled, 777012 which should have been the Kirkby train went past not in service

 

[Merseyrailfan]

I'm at Moorfields now waiting fot the Kirkby train only to find it's been canceled, 777012 which should have been the Kirkby train went past not in service

Not going well for 777s, is there going to 507s/508s on Kirkby line then

 

[Pacef8]

Is this another test run
Its seems to jump around?

Realtime Trains | 5T57 1858 New Brighton to New Brighton | 10/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5T57 1858 departure from New Brighton to New Brighton on 10/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Tynwald]

Does anyone remember the introduction of the 507. They where an utter dissaster. continous failings. which went on for a long tme. Bring back the 502 was the quote. Sands of time.

 

[Wrex2J78]

Is this another test run
Its seems to jump around?

Realtime Trains | 5T57 1858 New Brighton to New Brighton | 10/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5T57 1858 departure from New Brighton to New Brighton on 10/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

777018 just left New Brighton on time on the 5T57 working.

 

[Turbo004]

I saw 5T57 at Chester at 20.08. It was 777003 at Chester. It appeared to be on a driver training run.

 

[chesterred16]

Is this another test run
Its seems to jump around?

Realtime Trains | 5T57 1858 New Brighton to New Brighton | 10/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5T57 1858 departure from New Brighton to New Brighton on 10/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I don't understand the metrics behind RTT but that's a dog's dinner - Loop stations showing in the wrong order, a planned timing of three minutes between Chester and Hooton, at one point it was showing 'at platform' at three different stations.....

 

[Skie]

I don't understand the metrics behind RTT but that's a dog's dinner - Loop stations showing in the wrong order, a planned timing of three minutes between Chester and Hooton, at one point it was showing 'at platform' at three different stations.....

Yeah, RTT and others struggle with the loop. I think the NR feed just doesn't give enough info to handle the fact trains go from the same station back to the same station, stopping at some stations once but most other stations twice. In the case of that working it does the loop twice, which is probably why it's so bad.

It must also play havoc with other operators systems when it comes to delay repay. More than once I've had issues with Virgin/Avanti when they've caused a delay into Chester that meant I missed a Merseyrail service to complete my journey, and the delay repay people have botched the calculations.