Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Skie]

SWR and the 701's are vying with them for worst spot

The very fact that multiple operators are finding it difficult to introduce brand new stock that was ordered, produced and delivered during the same periods might give you a hint that something might be related to a certain global event and not actually some sort of incompetence on an organisations behalf.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The very fact that multiple operators are finding it difficult to introduce brand new stock that was ordered, produced and delivered during the same periods might give you a hint that something might be related to a certain global event and not actually some sort of incompetence on an organisations behalf.

Didn't say it was incompetence just pointed out SWR 701's were in the same league. Yes the pandemic has caused knock on impacts but other operators have managed to neutralise the impact like LO who got 710s into use as did GA with 720's.

I would say the real issue with the delay of these two fleets is operational staffing arrangements not being sorted properly before trains were ordered.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yes the pandemic has caused knock on impacts but other operators have managed to neutralise the impact like LO who got 710s into use as did GA with 720's.

The 710s were in service in 2019, before anyone had heard of Covid

 

[Parjon]

Bit overstated to suggest this is the worst thing that's ever happened, or reflects poorly on devolution. A perfect storm of events has clearly hit a complex situation. Would I have been able to get a better result? Of course! But I'm not in charge!

Aside from the extra money for the batteries (which saves money, and trailblazes for the UK) let's not forget that the trains were purchased out of well run local finances and a fund built up sensibly over a long period of time.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Bit overstated to suggest this is the worst thing that's ever happened, or reflects poorly on devolution. A perfect storm of events has clearly hit a complex situation. Would I have been able to get a better result? Of course! But I'm not in charge!

Aside from the extra money for the batteries (which saves money, and trailblazes for the UK) let's not forget that the trains were purchased out of well run local finances and a fund built up sensibly over a long period of time.

Not quite the trains have been financed by the European Investment Bank fortunately before we were shut out such sources of cheap finance for public entities.

 

[Parjon]

Not quite the trains have been financed by the European Investment Bank fortunately before we were shut out such sources of cheap finance for public entities.

£190m of the £440m came in loans from the EIB. Either way, no one was knocking on Mr Osborne's door. Just as well really.

 

[Wezz]

Well they were supposed to have an agreement sometime in 2022. And now you are saying they are supposed to have an agreement in 2023. Sounds like history could be repeating itself.....

There is plenty of time to get an agreement, we'll find out within the next few weeks if the second ballot was accepted or not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Steve Rotheram has been talking about the new 777 fleet in this Liverpool Echo piece.
It's a masterly piece of waffle, and doesn't offer an introduction date for the trains.
He doesn't mention crewing issues, but he does mention a flood at Stadler's manufacturing base, and the need for fault-free testing.

MSN

The new fleet has been hit with a raft of delays, but Mr Rotheram said he was the one to take the flak for the rolling stock not taking to the rails just yet. He said: “I have to start by saying we're losing (Cllr) Liam (Robinson), going to the city council as the leader of the Labour group, and hopefully as the leader of the council after May.
“That's a big loss for us. If people want to have a moan and blame anybody for stuff not happening, I'll hold my hands up, because I expected by now that we'd have trains on the tracks.

“They are running but we aren’t getting passengers on them. They have to do what's called fault free testing.
“They’ve got to run around 500 miles on each one, but because of everything that's happening, if we were to bring something in, and then literally stop them, and start them again and stop them it’s not going to work, I want it to be a big moment.”
Mr Rotheram said he wanted to welcome the trains with a “brass band” and see the new fleet as transformational for the whole area. During the testing runs, which many have seen on the Kirkby to Liverpool line, the new batteries are being put under rigorous exercise.

The Metro Mayor added: “They can go around 40 miles, so in other words, we can get anywhere in the city region. Imagine us taking over Northern services to Manchester.
“We could run them with our trains, and there's no additional cost of the infrastructure, they will have to buy new trains, but we’d be prepared to do that.” Passengers have been waiting a long time for the new stock, with a number of issues derailing plans for them to be online by the end of last year.
It has been six years since a deal was first struck to purchase the trains, but the Class 777s are yet to welcome commuters. Mr Rotheram said: “I don't think anybody foresaw a flood in the manufacturers.

 

[D821]

Steve Rotheram has been talking about the new 777 fleet in this Liverpool Echo piece.
It's a masterly piece of waffle, and doesn't offer an introduction date for the trains.
He doesn't mention crewing issues, but he does mention a flood at Stadler's manufacturing base, and the need for fault-free testing.

MSN

I get the feeling that people are increasingly starting to lose patience with him over the introduction of the 777s. If more 507s and 508s are retired and service gets worse it'll increase the pressure on him. The Echo seems to have gone quite easy on him, so far.

 

[MattRat]

Steve Rotheram has been talking about the new 777 fleet in this Liverpool Echo piece.
It's a masterly piece of waffle, and doesn't offer an introduction date for the trains.
He doesn't mention crewing issues, but he does mention a flood at Stadler's manufacturing base, and the need for fault-free testing.

MSN

It also seems to have a lot of pomp and ceremony about it. Part of me thinks it would be hilarious if he gets that brass band for the new trains, only for them to break down on their first day of service. It would also be nice if the trains worked of course, but I'll take any comedy I can get, and that would be very comedic.

However, another thing to note is that he mentions Eurovision, so fires may get lit under people to ensure the new trains are running for Eurovision, as a symbol to the world of where Liverpool is going. And if they aren't, well, being stuck with 40+ year old trains isn't going be a great image to show the rest of the world....

 

[DJH1971]

I get the feeling that people are increasingly starting to lose patience with him over the introduction of the 777s. If more 507s and 508s are retired and service gets worse it'll increase the pressure on him. The Echo seems to have gone quite easy on him, so far.

Could well be the Echo may be giving him less of an easy ride soon.

 

[TheSel]

Could well be the Echo may be giving him less of an easy ride soon.

People might start railing against him?

... I'll get me coat ...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I get the feeling that people are increasingly starting to lose patience with him over the introduction of the 777s. If more 507s and 508s are retired and service gets worse it'll increase the pressure on him. The Echo seems to have gone quite easy on him, so far.

The councillors are the ones that need up the ante. Watch the webcasts they are all soft even the opposition no challenge at all.

 

[D821]

The councillors are the ones that need up the ante. Watch the webcasts they are all soft even the opposition no challenge at all.

I've read a few comments in other places saying the same, no one seems to be asking any serious questions about it. I've not watched any of the webcasts but have read the transport committee meetings minutes from earlier meetings and little has been asked about it.

 

[8A Rail]

The councillors are the ones that need up the ante. Watch the webcasts they are all soft even the opposition no challenge at all.

Ah yes, which Councillors thought? It needs ALL of them of each Council that makes up Liverpool City Region (LCR), probably with the exception of Halton Borough Council. This is probably the reason why the subject not brought up at the meetings because the Councillors concerned are concentrating on matters relating to their own area and not LCR wide including Merseytravel.

 

[OutdoorM]

Could well be the Echo may be giving him less of an easy ride soon.

Sadly I doubt that, the Echo has shown a real unwillingness to perform any type of investigative reporting into the ruling labour party other than when absolutely forced to.

Similarly with local councillors, given that the majority are labour councillors and the prime reason for the delay is an issue with the unions, why upset the apple cart.

But regardless, lets hope they get them in service soon

 

[Bertie the bus]

I see Rotherham is trotting out the usual excuses he has been using for months in that article except one. He appears to have invented a new one – ‘the national situation we’ve faced’. What does that even mean?

It is pretty standard for those in authority to deflect blame but it is particularly nauseating when someone says if you want to blame anybody then blame me but it’s everybody’s fault but mine.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

He appears to have invented a new one – ‘the national situation we’ve faced’. What does that even mean?

COVID-19 pandemic in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see Rotherham is trotting out the usual excuses he has been using for months in that article except one. He appears to have invented a new one – ‘the national situation we’ve faced’. What does that even mean?

It is pretty standard for those in authority to deflect blame but it is particularly nauseating when someone says if you want to blame anybody then blame me but it’s everybody’s fault but mine.

I don't see how it's his fault.

Is he personally pushing DOO? No.
Is he personally opposed to DOO? No.

DOO is the main problem now in my understanding, he's just being sensible in not bringing it up because that would basically be putting his foot right in it.

 

[Pacef8]

Speaking as a local who is paying for these trains it is getting a bit irritating now . This doo should of been sorted 2 years ago irrespective of covid.

 

[Skie]

It would be completely idiotic if Rotherham did an interview and blamed the unions weeks before the result of a ballot that might finally unlock the rollout. I think people here need to get a bit real about how employee/union relations work. Look at Avanti for an example of how not to go about it.

 

[childwallblues]

Rotheram is scared to tackle the unions.

 

[Ribbleman]

It would be completely idiotic if Rotherham did an interview and blamed the unions weeks before the result of a ballot that might finally unlock the rollout. I think people here need to get a bit real about how employee/union relations work. Look at Avanti for an example of how not to go about it.

All the same, he is taking advantage of the public’s lack of detailed knowledge of the situation to cloud the issue. He talks about the need for each unit to complete 500 miles of fault free running. In fact, all of the sets in the UK passed that stage some months ago. His need to waffle is largely down to the failure to conduct and complete negotiations either before the 777 order was placed or during the years that have followed. COVID notwithstanding, the “kicking the can down the road” approach has led to the current frustration where the only winners are Angel Trains, who are still receiving lease payments for stock that they would have expected to have scrapped some time ago.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't see how it's his fault.

Is he personally pushing DOO? No.
Is he personally opposed to DOO? No.

DOO is the main problem now in my understanding, he's just being sensible in not bringing it up because that would basically be putting his foot right in it.

You have clearly failed to understand the point I was making. He is claiming to accept responsibility and at the same time claiming he is not responsible for anything. Don't say blame me but then make a whole host of excuses as to why it isn't your responsibility or fault, especially when the main reason they are delayed is.

BTW it has absolutely nothing to do with DOO. That idea was totally abandoned last summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

BTW it has absolutely nothing to do with DOO. That idea was totally abandoned last summer.

I'm including within the term DOO the pseudo OBS thing with the drivers controlling the doors, which is accepted by RMT but not yet ASLEF.

 

[childwallblues]

Perhaps it is the time for certainly those of us who live in the Liverpool City Region (Liverpool/Knowsley/St Helens/Halton/Sefton/Wirral) to write to our MPs and Councillors to ask what is going on. As ratepayers we are funding the LCR and we should know what is going on. We have to expect a reply containing a lot of waffle and dross but we can challenge that. They will get fed up with us and maybe start digging deep.

 

[8A Rail]

Perhaps it is the time for certainly those of us who live in the Liverpool City Region (Liverpool/Knowsley/St Helens/Halton/Sefton/Wirral) to write to our MPs and Councillors to ask what is going on. As ratepayers we are funding the LCR and we should know what is going on. We have to expect a reply containing a lot of waffle and dross but we can challenge that. They will get fed up with us and maybe start digging deep.

Why? Basically from information we have received it has been down in obtaining agreements with the RMT and now ASLEF to operate the Class 777's. I would admit it has been a very slow process to say the least and seem to be dragging it out more than necessary, may be that what the questions should be about? However, I would expect any replies to be a load of waffle. So would we be any further on or the picture any clearer in the circumstances? I doubt it.

Are you suggesting that there may be more to it than the union 'agreements' in the delay of the Class 777's into service?

(On a personal note, the entry of the Class 777's into service is neither here or there to me as I am not on a Merseyrail line to use then. My main focus is the xxxx service we have on the L&M line serving stations between Huyton and Earlestown as an hour frequency is not acceptable even worst when you have cancelations too. So forgive me if I am not sympathetic to the cause as people who live by and use the Merseryrail system have a far much better service than I and others do yet we come under LCR too!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? Basically from information we have received it has been down in obtaining agreements with the RMT and now ASLEF to operate the Class 777's. I would admit it has been a very slow process to say the least and seem to be dragging it out more than necessary, may be that what the questions should be about?

So far as I'm aware that's basically all it is that's the real blocker. There's other stuff to sort e.g. moving signals and the Southport buffer stops to allow 8 car working, but they could have been in service well before that with a few 507s/508s kept for peak 6 car workings for now, you'd only need a few.

 

[ashkeba]

Perhaps it is the time for certainly those of us who live in the Liverpool City Region (Liverpool/Knowsley/St Helens/Halton/Sefton/Wirral) to write to our MPs and Councillors to ask what is going on. As ratepayers we are funding the LCR and

Rates have been gone for at least 30 years, so using that term may reduce your standing to complain about a dispute over modernisation!

 

[8A Rail]

So far as I'm aware that's basically all it is that's the real blocker. There's other stuff to sort e.g. moving signals and the Southport buffer stops to allow 8 car working, but they could have been in service well before that with a few 507s/508s kept for peak 6 car workings for now, you'd only need a few.

I agree but the reality we are never going to find out the true story even if questions were asked. There is / was intention to keep 10 Class 507's for the Southport line while the work gets completed for the operation of Class 777 eight car operation. Now with the delayed Class 777 introduction, has that changed too?