Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Nicholas Lewis]

MR reports into the public events in early September reports that

No 777010 was handed over on 17 August, followed on 7 September by No 777008.

and then quotes David Powell MerseyRail 777 Programme Director extolling

Merseytravel Programme Director David Powell reminded Modern Railways of the work done with local users to create the final design of the trains. ‘We went through two stages of formal research, which was led by Transport Focus, with a panel of 40 Merseyrail users working with us over about a year’ he explained. ‘This included three face-to-face meetings and 15 online tasks which looked at various features of the trains.’ Among areas influenced by this work were the livery, the design of the wheelchair space and the seat pitch and comfort. The new trains also offer a 50% increase in capacity compared to those they replace and a possible 10% reduction in journey times thanks to quicker acceleration and braking.

much point having nearly 3 times the installed power if you aren't going to exploit it. Then in the crucial aspect of getting these trains actually into service that Liverpool has paid for the lack of any clarity continues to be the feedback norm with Merseyrail Managing Director Andy Heath saying

was hopeful a timetable for the trains coming into service would be published in the next few months

So Liverpool Council being everything Labour would want to see yet it can't broker an agreement with RMT/ASLEF so the expensive trains just sit idle for at least the rest of 2021. Just as well those 507/508's that many want to rubbish have kept going.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So Liverpool Council being everything Labour would want to see yet it can't broker an agreement with RMT/ASLEF so the expensive trains just sit idle for at least the rest of 2021.

Just to clarify - Merseytravel is no more part of Liverpool Council than it is part of Halton, Knowsley, Sefton, St Helens or Wirral Councils. It's part of the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority (which of course is appointed by the six councils that I've listed, along with having a directly elected mayor). So whether Liverpool is a model Labour authority or not (hint - it isn't: commissioners aren't sent into model authorities) is pretty irrelevant to whether an agreement has been reached between the unions and the contractors (Merseyrail) to part (Merseytravel) of another authority (the combined authority) partly appointed by Liverpool and another five authorities.

 

[MattRat]

So Liverpool Council being everything Labour would want to see yet it can't broker an agreement with RMT/ASLEF so the expensive trains just sit idle for at least the rest of 2021. Just as well those 507/508's that many want to rubbish have kept going.

I admire the ruggedness of the 507/508, but Liverpool also needs to be brought into the 21st century in general. I doubt they can sit on the new trains that long anyway. They just don't have the storage space.

 

[Ribbleman]

I admire the ruggedness of the 507/508, but Liverpool also needs to be brought into the 21st century in general. I doubt they can sit on the new trains that long anyway. They just don't have the storage space.

I don’t think that the unions will be too concerned about a lack of storage space for the 777s. That is a matter for Merseytravel to tackle. Out of area storage is already a fact with several sets at Warrington. 2 x Class 20s working for DCR visited Kirkdale on route learning duties recently. This followed Merseytravel seeking expressions of interest from operators to move stock to and from unspecified destinations. Storage of 777s is likely to be an issue for some time to come as sets are accepted but cannot enter service. This at extra expense before the need to pay Angel Trains for the continued use of the 507/508 fleets. The question that needs answering is why were staff negotiations not completed in the period between agreeing that every train will have a second member of staff on board, which was 2 years ago, and the handover from Stadler of 777010 a few weeks ago.

 

[wobman]

Another 777 is on its way from Warrington arpley to Crewe for storage, the plan is for them to be stored there until needed !

 

[MattRat]

I don’t think that the unions will be too concerned about a lack of storage space for the 777s. That is a matter for Merseytravel to tackle. Out of area storage is already a fact with several sets at Warrington. 2 x Class 20s working for DCR visited Kirkdale on route learning duties recently. This followed Merseytravel seeking expressions of interest from operators to move stock to and from unspecified destinations. Storage of 777s is likely to be an issue for some time to come as sets are accepted but cannot enter service. This at extra expense before the need to pay Angel Trains for the continued use of the 507/508 fleets. The question that needs answering is why were staff negotiations not completed in the period between agreeing that every train will have a second member of staff on board, which was 2 years ago, and the handover from Stadler of 777010 a few weeks ago.

I was talking about Merseytravel. They need to get the trains on the rails now, that's just the situation they are in. If they have even one braincell, even they know this, and will have to back down, or if they somehow are that incompetent, then I guess I'll grab the popcorn....

 

[jamesst]

I don’t think that the unions will be too concerned about a lack of storage space for the 777s. That is a matter for Merseytravel to tackle. Out of area storage is already a fact with several sets at Warrington. 2 x Class 20s working for DCR visited Kirkdale on route learning duties recently. This followed Merseytravel seeking expressions of interest from operators to move stock to and from unspecified destinations. Storage of 777s is likely to be an issue for some time to come as sets are accepted but cannot enter service. This at extra expense before the need to pay Angel Trains for the continued use of the 507/508 fleets. The question that needs answering is why were staff negotiations not completed in the period between agreeing that every train will have a second member of staff on board, which was 2 years ago, and the handover from Stadler of 777010 a few weeks ago.

The very important point here is there may of been an agreement 2 years ago but nothing was ever signed. And a lot has happened in 2 years...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was talking about Merseytravel. They need to get the trains on the rails now, that's just the situation they are in. If they have even one braincell, even they know this, and will have to back down, or if they somehow are that incompetent, then I guess I'll grab the popcorn....

Or...a time when fewer people are travelling is time to have the fight if they do feel that way? The key I suppose is what the drivers will agree to. If they agree DOO (be that with or without OBS) and the units are ready to go, the guards lose all their ammunition, just like Southern...

 

[MattRat]

Or...a time when fewer people are travelling is time to have the fight if they do feel that way? The key I suppose is what the drivers will agree to. If they agree DOO (be that with or without OBS) and the units are ready to go, the guards lose all their ammunition, just like Southern...

Well the drivers and guards probably realise what I have about the situation. Why would you sign a deal when Merseytravel is the only one in a timer?

 

[Vespa]

Eventually there will be no trains and no job if they keep faffing about and in the meantime the 507/8 are getting older and more prone to breakdown....

 

[wobman]

Eventually there will be no trains and no job if they keep faffing about and in the meantime the 507/8 are getting older and more prone to breakdown....

Merseyrail have created this problem by not resolving it sooner, they have had this plan for years about going DOO but not got a deal with the traincrew who work the units !

 

[Bow Fell]

I know it would delight people on here, that the reason for the delayed introduction of the new fleet is down to the Union / second person dispute. “Those nasty unions yet again”

While this is a factor, there’s still a few technical considerations to iron out, there’s a few issues that have been found on testing, which need to be looked at, an issue with level boarding at some platforms, and safety concerns over train surfing, which Stadler need to revisit, there’s a lot more going on than just a staffing issue.

Eventually there will be no trains and no job if they keep faffing about and in the meantime the 507/8 are getting older and more prone to breakdown....

Nonsense, over the past 18 months or so, the reliability of the 507/8’s has been the best it’s ever been, there’s been the odd dip in reliability at times, but nothing of major concern.

 

[Vespa]

Nonsense, over the past 18 months or so, the reliability of the 507/8’s has been the best it’s ever been, there’s been the odd dip in reliability at times, but nothing of major concern.

It's still something that's getting older, its the oldest EMU running if I recall correctly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's still something that's getting older, its the oldest EMU running if I recall correctly.

The 313s used by Southern on the Coastway are a bit older, only a year or so though. Other than that you're right, most others are Mk3-derived or newer.

 

[Skie]

It’s always referred to as the oldest fleet with implied acknowledgment that there are indeed other older trains running but mixed in with much newer sets.

 

[507020]

It’s always referred to as the oldest fleet with implied acknowledgment that there are indeed other older trains running but mixed in with much newer sets.

It’s also the oldest design of EMU, being of the same design and built on the same production line as 313s only a few years later, so they can hardly be considered separate entities for the purpose of being the oldest, minus a bit of AC equipment which the Southern units have had removed anyway.

 

[The_Train]

Could anyone kindly inform me of the current whereabouts of 003, 004 & 006 please?
I have them as being at Walton Old Jct still but I have seen photo's elsewhere to suggest they are now at Kirkdale? If anyone could advise if this is the case, and if so, when they left Walton to head back to Kirkdale it would be most appreciated.

Thanks

 

[wobman]

Could anyone kindly inform me of the current whereabouts of 003, 004 & 006 please?
I have them as being at Walton Old Jct still but I have seen photo's elsewhere to suggest they are now at Kirkdale? If anyone could advise if this is the case, and if so, when they left Walton to head back to Kirkdale it would be most appreciated.

Thanks

3 have moved to Crewe LNWR for mods to door controls apparently !

 

[MattRat]

3 have moved to Crewe LNWR for mods to door controls apparently !

Are the doors broken already? Not a good sign if so.

 

[43096]

Are the doors broken already? Not a good sign if so.

No. Modifications to the door controls to allow guard operation seems to be the modification.

 

[MattRat]

No. Modifications to the door controls to allow guard operation seems to be the modification.

Oh, so the opposite then, as in a good thing. Sounds like the guard dispute might finally be over.

 

[wobman]

Oh, so the opposite then, as in a good thing. Sounds like the guard dispute might finally be over.

Let's hope there's a deal on its way at last

 

[Carlisle]

No. Modifications to the door controls to allow guard operation seems to be the modification.

So little prospect of the recent SWR settlement heralding a more enlightened approach elsewhere from the RMT anytime soon, & a mayor willing to concede virtually anything for the glory of introducing shiny new trains on his watch.

 

[Grumpy Git]

So little prospect of the recent SWR settlement heralding a more enlightened approach elsewhere from the RMT anytime soon, & a mayor willing to concede virtually anything for the glory of introducing shiny new trains on his watch.

Why not kill two birds with one stone and make the guards go and get a HGV licence?

 

[Vespa]

Why not kill two birds with one stone and make the guards go and get a HGV licence?

Never a truer word spoken in jest

 

[Fokx]

So little prospect of the recent SWR settlement heralding a more enlightened approach elsewhere from the RMT anytime soon, & a mayor willing to concede virtually anything for the glory of introducing shiny new trains on his watch.

Liverpool is ‘made of different stuff’, more stubborn than the south, and extremely so politically.

The guards want guards on the trains
The drivers want guards on the trains
The passengers want guards on the trains

There will only be one winner here and it won’t be Merseytravels budget.

 

[wobman]

Liverpool is ‘made of different stuff’, more stubborn than the south, and extremely so politically.

The guards want guards on the trains
The drivers want guards on the trains
The passengers want guards on the trains

There will only be one winner here and it won’t be Merseytravels budget.

Plus they want merseyrail to be like the TFL network, they are very different systems and have had very different levels of investment over the decades.

 

[Pacef8]

During covid at its previous max they asked key workers at the hospitals such as chester at what time service do you need? and they ran them .

 

[geoffk]

Liverpool is ‘made of different stuff’, more stubborn than the south, and extremely so politically.

The guards want guards on the trains
The drivers want guards on the trains
The passengers want guards on the trains

There will only be one winner here and it won’t be Merseytravels budget.

Seeing that one of their guards went to prison I'm surprised anyone wants to do the job.

 

[Pacef8]

If you read the accident report you would see the passenger was negligible as well as the trains vision and cameras but that is off topic.