Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[73001]

Wikipedia still has these as entering service "2020 onwards" so in that respect I guess they're still on schedule?

Until they start testing them and the doors won't open, they won't go round corners, they can't get up the tunnel gradients etc etc etc

 

[Jamesrob637]

Until they start testing them and the doors won't open, they won't go round corners, they can't get up the tunnel gradients etc etc etc

Oops didn't realise the extent of the issues as I only take Merseyrail once or twice a year! Maybe they can do a TPE in 2017 and run one train on 30 Dec, in order to comply with franchise requirements

 

[Bertie the bus]

Oops didn't realise the extent of the issues ...

There aren’t any issues. They haven’t started testing them yet so there couldn’t be any. His point was don’t take what you read on Wikipedia literally but you then took what he wrote literally!

 

[Jamesrob637]

There aren’t any issues. They haven’t started testing them yet so there couldn’t be any. His point was don’t take what you read on Wikipedia literally but you then took what he wrote literally!

Fair point! However if these units develop no significant faults during Merseyside testing I will be very surprised. Then again, they may learn from Greater Anglia and their STADLER products

 

[transmanche]

Fair point! However if these units develop no significant faults during Merseyside testing I will be very surprised. Then again, they may learn from Greater Anglia and their STADLER products

I'm not convinced that you can draw any conclusions by comparing the introduction of Stadler's 'FLIRT' family AC electric/diesel BMUs to a mainly rural branch network with the introduction of DC EMUs based on Stadler's 'METRO' family to an intensive commuter operation.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not convinced that you can draw any conclusions by comparing the introduction of Stadler's 'FLIRT' family AC electric/diesel BMUs to a mainly rural branch network with the introduction of DC EMUs based on Stadler's 'METRO' family to an intensive commuter operation.

Some transferable knowledge for sure but not a lot, DC environment rather than AC/Diesel and as said, entirely different operational style. It will still be a long time between first unit delivery and first revenue service for these units, even without any unforeseen issues.

 

[jamesst]

There aren’t any issues. They haven’t started testing them yet so there couldn’t be any. His point was don’t take what you read on Wikipedia literally but you then took what he wrote literally!

Oh theres many many issues. And that's before the testing of the first train even begins...

 

[390112A]

As someone from Liverpool I am really excited for the new stock and hope for them to be great, however I agree with most people on here about more units being needed in the not to distant future especially with the Merseytravel expansion hopes. I also think they look Great (externally). But apart from the slow movement of the train in the depot and official pictures on Twitter is there any other videos that show the train moving ?

 

[Energy]

As someone from Liverpool I am really excited for the new stock and hope for them to be great, however I agree with most people on here about more units being needed in the not to distant future especially with the Merseytravel expansion hopes. I also think they look Great (externally). But apart from the slow movement of the train in the depot and official pictures on Twitter is there any other videos that show the train moving ?

Well they look to be on target for 2020 (not early though), you will probably see more videos of them as more testing happens, they are just starting slow speed tests in what looks to be the factory.

 

[samuelmorris]

As someone from Liverpool I am really excited for the new stock and hope for them to be great, however I agree with most people on here about more units being needed in the not to distant future especially with the Merseytravel expansion hopes. I also think they look Great (externally). But apart from the slow movement of the train in the depot and official pictures on Twitter is there any other videos that show the train moving ?

Agreed here, it's very unusual for a new rolling stock fleet to result in a noticeable shrinking of the fleet size (other than of course the interim period before the old units have all been removed). 3505m of PEP are being replaced by 3379m of 777. Granted there'll be some capacity efficiency gains with through gangways that may negate that 3.5% size reduction, but it doesn't really represent much of an increase all things considered. Hopefully some of the options will be taken up.

 

[Skie]

As someone from Liverpool I am really excited for the new stock and hope for them to be great, however I agree with most people on here about more units being needed in the not to distant future especially with the Merseytravel expansion hopes. I also think they look Great (externally). But apart from the slow movement of the train in the depot and official pictures on Twitter is there any other videos that show the train moving ?

Theres this:

Not long but shows one travelling at speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't go for more units, instead I'd have the existing ones extended to 5 or 6 sections and stop running double sets. Much simpler.

 

[tomuk]

Agreed here, it's very unusual for a new rolling stock fleet to result in a noticeable shrinking of the fleet size (other than of course the interim period before the old units have all been removed). 3505m of PEP are being replaced by 3379m of 777. Granted there'll be some capacity efficiency gains with through gangways that may negate that 3.5% size reduction, but it doesn't really represent much of an increase all things considered. Hopefully some of the options will be taken up.

One thing not to forget is that there will be dramatic reduction in the maintenance required. The PEPs are DC motored with camshaft control. The 777 are AC motored (no brushes) with IGBT (no moving parts) plus if regenerative braking is available a reduction in brake pad changes too. The number of 777 units available for service should be much higher.

 

[modernrail]

If they were struggling for units one idea could be to keep current units on the Kirkby Line until money can be found for more. It is a very short route and so journey times not much of a consideration. It might be in Merseyrails interests to argue extra stock is funded by an additional Central Government grant linked to an extension of Merseyrail services to Wigan/Skem if they are tight for cash.

 

[73001]

If they were struggling for units one idea could be to keep current units on the Kirkby Line until money can be found for more. It is a very short route and so journey times not much of a consideration. It might be in Merseyrails interests to argue extra stock is funded by an additional Central Government grant linked to an extension of Merseyrail services to Wigan/Skem if they are tight for cash.

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that they are going to hang on to a few units although how long this will be for is anyone's guess. As you say, it would seem to make sense initially if only to provide that bit of extra capacity at peak etc... maybe they'd build up the same following as the 37s on the Cumbrian coast!

 

[507 001]

I wouldn't go for more units, instead I'd have the existing ones extended to 5 or 6 sections and stop running double sets. Much simpler.

Can the new shed at Kirkdale handle such long units?

 

[modernrail]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that they are going to hang on to a few units although how long this will be for is anyone's guess. As you say, it would seem to make sense initially if only to provide that bit of extra capacity at peak etc... maybe they'd build up the same following as the 37s on the Cumbrian coast!

I heard an rumour about peak busters a while ago but then had the thought that would mess up the substantial gain of new faster timings on the longer lines. Hence perhaps just deploying the old units on one line (Kirkby) where there is little marginal gain from the new timings would be a better solution, leaving other lines to transfer to full 777 working?

 

[Meerkat]

I can’t see there being any extra funding from a Tory government after screwing the financial plan by caving in to the RMT.
And any North/South whining would be risky as the answer would be to highlight the frequent service, low fares/huge subsidies Merseyrail gets, which must be highly envied by other northern cities

 

[jamesst]

If they were struggling for units one idea could be to keep current units on the Kirkby Line until money can be found for more. It is a very short route and so journey times not much of a consideration. It might be in Merseyrails interests to argue extra stock is funded by an additional Central Government grant linked to an extension of Merseyrail services to Wigan/Skem if they are tight for cash.

Ironically the Kirkby line is scheduled to be the first for the new units, the Southport line the last...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ironically the Kirkby line is scheduled to be the first for the new units, the Southport line the last...

This probably makes sense as the Kirkby circuit is fairly self-contained (Ormskirk and Kirkby used to interwork but I believe since Maghull North opened they no longer do). It's also one of the quieter bits so they don't need to worry about multiple working to start with.

 

[Energy]

Can the new shed at Kirkdale handle such long units?

Looking at this video of the building, no. But it looks like they could extend it.

 

[390112A]

I wouldn't go for more units, instead I'd have the existing ones extended to 5 or 6 sections and stop running double sets. Much simpler.

During Peak hour yes but off peak there is not enough demand to need 7/8 cars on the Stadler units bearing in mind 4 car Stadler = 3 car PEP unit

Hopefully some of the options will be taken up.

Agreed

Another interesting development is the talk of reopening the Bootle Branch to passengers for stations at the Football grounds. Then even more stock would be needed whether it be more 777s should the reopening involve electrifying the line or something else if it is kept as diesel, though I highly doubt the latter as it would make sense to electrify the line in my eyes.

 

[73001]

During Peak hour yes but off peak there is not enough demand to need 7/8 cars on the Stadler units bearing in mind 4 car Stadler = 3 car PEP unit


Agreed

Another interesting development is the talk of reopening the Bootle Branch to passengers for stations at the Football grounds. Then even more stock would be needed whether it be more 777s should the reopening involve electrifying the line or something else if it is kept as diesel, though I highly doubt the latter as it would make sense to electrify the line in my eyes.

The Everton ground is due to move to the docks in about 3 years (with potentially a new station between Sandhills and town) so there would be less incentive to do that. It would be a nice line to do though although I would wonder at the demand/usage across the week. It's generally all in and out for Liverpool rather than around.

 

[Ribbleman]

The Everton ground is due to move to the docks in about 3 years (with potentially a new station between Sandhills and town) so there would be less incentive to do that. It would be a nice line to do though although I would wonder at the demand/usage across the week. It's generally all in and out for Liverpool rather than around.

I think that the idea of an additional station between Sandhills and Moorfields was discounted as there is not enough line capacity to accommodate the time taken by an additional stop.
Despite local politicians calling for a station on the Bootle branch to cater for football traffic, it is difficult to see how sufficient extra stock could be provided on match days to make a worthwhile contribution to the transport requirements. Rather cheaper to continue the existing Soccerbus service from Sandhills.

 

[childwallblues]

I think that the idea of an additional station between Sandhills and Moorfields was discounted as there is not enough line capacity to accommodate the time taken by an additional stop.
Despite local politicians calling for a station on the Bootle branch to cater for football traffic, it is difficult to see how sufficient extra stock could be provided on match days to make a worthwhile contribution to the transport requirements. Rather cheaper to continue the existing Soccerbus service from Sandhills.

Surely Merseyrail would not have any involvement in any station on the Bootle Branch as Merseyrail access can only be via a reverse at Bootle Oriel Road from Liverpool Central. Trrains would obviously run from Lime Street via Edge Hill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely Merseyrail would not have any involvement in any station on the Bootle Branch as Merseyrail access can only be via a reverse at Bootle Oriel Road from Liverpool Central. Trrains would obviously run from Lime Street via Edge Hill.

Which Bootle branch are we talking about? Isn't this referring to the line via Giro which is Merseyrail?

 

[childwallblues]

Which Bootle branch are we talking about? Isn't this referring to the line via Giro which is Merseyrail?

The one from Edge Hill to Bootle Oriel Road/Liverpool Docks. The proposed station would be where the line crosses Utting Avenue and is a fair walk from the ground.

 

[Skie]

With a lot of cash to throw around an interchange station at Kirkdale could be built, as the Bootle branch passes underneath it and in open cuttings just to the east.

Cheaper option of course would be to re-open the 3rd platforms at the one or two of the Bootle stations and turn back services there.

 

[childwallblues]

With a lot of cash to throw around an interchange station at Kirkdale could be built, as the Bootle branch passes underneath it and in open cuttings just to the east.

Cheaper option of course would be to re-open the 3rd platforms at the one or two of the Bootle stations and turn back services there.

No the cheaper option would be Lime Street-Edge Hill-Utting Avenue. No extra platform re-opening.

 

[Skie]

No the cheaper option would be Lime Street-Edge Hill-Utting Avenue. No extra platform re-opening.

Aye, but was more thinking along the lines of making it a viable Merseyrail service and not just a special for the football fans.