Merseyrail Class 777: How could these units be improved?

[yorkie]

From the class 777 updates thread, I see some people are posting suggestions for how these units could be improved; I've set this thread up so that the other thread can concentrate on updates.

Obviously this is is subjective and not everyone is going to agree, but if you have any suggestions for how these units could be improved, fire away...

 

[8A Rail]

Reading the 'original' Class 777 thread, and comment was made about the doors and until today never given it a thought! However, after some photography at Hunts Cross Station, I boarded a train for Liverpool Central to record a Class 777 at the station (a requested image). In the 30 minutes I was there, two Class 777's appeared namely 777004 (Kirkby line) and 008 (Ormskirk line). As an observation, what amazed me after passengers got off and on the Units at different door openings was the amount of times different doors shut, opened, shut, opened etc with the first thing that sprang to mind, if the doors continue to go at that rate, it won't too long for the door mechanism's will need replacing!

As others have suggested, other Stadler Units have a similar system and indications suggesting the doors are robust and reliable. OK it is early days but time will tell if this is a short term 'operational' issue but I wonder if the timing of the doors need to be re-adjusted? As I've stated just a casual observation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Biggest priority - replace the seats. They are absolutely and utterly dire. Hard, narrow and an awkward shape that curves the back of a tall person unnaturally. The worst railway seat I've come across for a long time.

Technical improvements like not relying on an Internet connection for the PIS (what a stupid design).

Lower level of lighting, it is excessive. Ideally add working daytime light level variation as Pendolinos have (if it's there, it's rubbish).

Nicer interior scheme, it's really rather drab, the new Merseytravel bus shows how it should be done.

There are other things they could and should have done like wider doors (they are quite narrow compared to the 50x and can't really fit two streams of people) but obviously this sort of thing is a bit late to fix.

 

[OL-3944]

The LCD panels which contain train running information ie arrival times etc the text is way too small. You literally need to be sat under or next to it to read all the information available.

 

[lrailadventure]

Lower level of lighting, it is excessive. Ideally add working daytime light level variation as Pendolinos have (if it's there, it's rubbish).

Not just a lower level of lighting (which is far too bright 99% of the time), but also stop it from doing the random flashing on and off.. if they want varied lighting levels, fine, but it needs to be gradual not just no lights to all lights.

That lighting issue, combined with the flashing around the doors (although I know this is for accessibility for visually impaired travellers so probably can't be changed or reduced) gives me a wonderful headache if I have the misfortune of travelling onboard a 777.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The LCD panels which contain train running information ie arrival times etc the text is way too small. You literally need to be sat under or next to it to read all the information available.

Agree. I'm astonished they meet PRM TSI - they certainly wouldn't meet the old RVAR which was a bit stricter.

The "TV format" displays used by other TOCs seem to me to be better than these vertically narrow ones. Trying to be too clever? There are a lot of issues caused by this with these units.

 

[MattRat]

Surprised no one's mentioned legroom in the airline style seats yet, or lack thereof.

 

[karlbbb]

I'd agree that the door-timeout needs to be increased. It's barely 10 seconds at the moment and I saw a door opened and closed 4 times this morning just waiting on a platform for about a minute due to being early.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised no one's mentioned legroom in the airline style seats yet, or lack thereof.

Yes, legroom is poor, though to be fair it's no worse than an average bus and they do fulfil the same role. It's the poor design of the shape of the seat that concerns me more, though the lack of legroom means I can't compensate for that by slouching as I do in e.g. a 170 where the "wings" are a bit low not to.

 

[Ellis101]

In my opinion not enough trains have been ordered, and it should've at least matched the 60 we had with 507/508s especially when you consider the cities ever-growing status with big events i.e. Eurovision and the upcoming Tour de France.

 

[gka472l]

Indeed, its a shame how unless you live on the southport branch overall there has been a reduction in service quality (more cramped and shorter) trains.
In my opinion not enough trains have been ordered and it should've at least matched the 60 we had with 507/508s especially when you consider the cities ever growing status with big events i.e. Eurovision and the upcoming Tour De France.

Personal view is that they probably should have ordered them all as fixed 6/7 car units to be accommodated in the underground platforms, and no need for attaching/detaching, would have needed more siding space mind......

 

[Energy]

Personal view is that they probably should have ordered them all as fixed 6/7 car units to be accommodated in the underground platforms, and no need for attaching/detaching, would have needed more siding space mind......

Yep, fixed 120m units. Merseytravel spent a fair bit on platform extensions to accommodate the units being 65m (so 130m for a double-unit). The original plan was that the train would overhang slightly.

I like the Class 777's level boarding, but I get the sense that Merseyrail had to cheap out on some bits, e.g., the problematic PIS, and Stadlers just aren't the crowd swallowers that the Desiro Cities are.

In an alternative universe, buying off-the-shelf class 717s may have allowed for a smoother introduction & more units.

 

[bramling]

Yep, fixed 120m units. Merseytravel spent a fair bit on platform extensions to accommodate the units being 65m (so 130m for a double-unit). The original plan was that the train would overhang slightly.

I like the Class 777's level boarding, but I get the sense that Merseyrail had to cheap out on some bits, e.g., the problematic PIS, and Stadlers just aren't the crowd swallowers that the Desiro Cities are.

In an alternative universe, buying off-the-shelf class 717s may have allowed for a smoother introduction & more units.

I definitely think a 717 would have been better, though I’m not sure how affordable it would have been to have had solid 6-car operation. That would be the equivalent of a significant increase in fleet size, and would have needed much extra stabling space too. The fact that the 777 fleet size is reduced compared to the 507/8 fleet shows that the funding just wouldn’t have been there.

I guess the legacy is we’re left with a quirky fleet, but also one that isn’t particularly fit for purpose unfortunately. As ever another mess created by politicians.

 

[FrontSideBus]

LU S stock would have been a good buy IMO.

 

[urbophile]

LU S stock would have been a good buy IMO.

Especially the Metropolitan line version. A combination of facing bays and longitudinal seating (perhaps with more of the former) would have been better than the cramped bus-type seating we have. But I do like the 777s and they seem to have settled down and become more reliable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Especially the Metropolitan line version. A combination of facing bays and longitudinal seating (perhaps with more of the former) would have been better than the cramped bus-type seating we have. But I do like the 777s and they seem to have settled down and become more reliable.

I personally still fairly strongly dislike them myself. However it does seem reliability is now settling down, and that is certainly a good thing.

 

[507 001]

I guess the legacy is we’re left with a quirky fleet, but also one that isn’t particularly fit for purpose unfortunately. As ever another mess created by politicians.

But, but, they were designed by you, for you!

 

[urbophile]

From a passenger's point of view, I have only three quibbles.
[1] the seating layout, but they did a survey and most people apparently preferred the one we've got. I don't really like those bus seats.
[2] the strange information displays. The ones witth the map and moving train are good in priinciple, but they are too small and randomly situated. The dot matrix ones look old-fashioned; I can't understand why they don't use the same technology as the others.
[3] the slowness of the door release after stopping at a station.

Level boarding is a great plus, even at the cost of the variable floor levels inside. A necessary compromise I think. And yes, a couple of extra doors would improve things at busy times and stations.

Much as I quite liked the 507-8s (not as much as the 502-3s though) they were big lumbering beasts compared to these agile creatures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

[1] the seating layout, but they did a survey and most people apparently preferred the one we've got. I don't really like those bus seats.

If I remember rightly the survey did ask for a mixed airline and facing layout rather than all facing as the 50x had. But they didn't ask for the seats to be rock hard and unnaturally curved, I suspect

I agree on the PIS screens, they are terrible. Surprised they are compliant to be honest. But that should be a really easy software fix if Merseyrail care about such things!

 

[FrontSideBus]

The seats are too narrow and close together.

 

[Northerngirl]

The good thing is that the seats and screens can be fixed with a refub in 20 years, hopefully someone sees sense and we get a batch of 130m sets and the current ones can go to Wrexham if that ever happens

 

[Bletchleyite]

The good thing is that the seats and screens can be fixed with a refub in 20 years, hopefully someone sees sense and we get a batch of 130m sets and the current ones can go to Wrexham if that ever happens

The screens can be fixed now, it's just software. Basically the same screens are fitted to the Tyne and Wear Class 555s with different configuration and they are fine.

Mind you the railway tends to prioritise this sort of thing very low on the list. The WMT 730s are still all going round with "Carriage N" scrolling away in a short field on the side displays, which would be really easy to fix (either by lengthening the field or changing it to "Car N" or "Coach N" so it fits without scrolling) and looks silly. Yes, it's minor, but the railway has enough stuff to make it look bad without adding things unnecessarily...

 

[Class83]

From a passenger's point of view, I have only three quibbles.
[1] the seating layout, but they did a survey and most people apparently preferred the one we've got. I don't really like those bus seats.
[2] the strange information displays. The ones witth the map and moving train are good in priinciple, but they are too small and randomly situated. The dot matrix ones look old-fashioned; I can't understand why they don't use the same technology as the others.
[3] the slowness of the door release after stopping at a station.

Level boarding is a great plus, even at the cost of the variable floor levels inside. A necessary compromise I think. And yes, a couple of extra doors would improve things at busy times and stations.

Much as I quite liked the 507-8s (not as much as the 502-3s though) they were big lumbering beasts compared to these agile creatures.

[3] could be resolved somewhat by setting all doors automatically opening on release at the Underground stations, plus other main stations such as Birkenhead Central, Green Lane, Conway and Birkenhead Park. Along with busier stations along the route e.g. South Parkway, Waterloo and the various termini. Would save a couple of seconds per station waiting for passengers to see the green light and press the button. If they closed and locked first time that would save a bit as well.

No major issue with the seating layout, except in window seats there is nowhere for your feet to go as the carriage curves under you, I like the live map info boards.