Merseyrail buffer stops at Kirkby, Ormskirk and Ellesmere Port

[backontrack]

The most sensible pattern to me would be to build Burscough Bridge to a 4-platform interchange and operate as follows:-

Merseyrail: half hourly continuation on from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge calling at Mill Dam Lane (new station) and Burscough Junction. The "other" half hour could go to Skem if desired, but it's more likely Skem will be served as an extension of the Kirkby line. For a half hourly service the line would not need doubling, just electrifying; I worked out a timetable that worked ages ago.

Northern: Hourly Preston to Burscough Bridge (single unit) on a timetable that co-ordinates with the Merseyrail service. Alternatively two units could I think run a through service to Southport.

All other services as they are, but if there are still any Northern services that miss Burscough Bridge, reinstate the stop.

Mothball the direct Rufford-Burscough Jn line and bridge.

Hmm.

What about:

-new station at Burscough Bridge
-half-hourly Merseyrail extension from Liverpool to Burscough Bridge
-hourly Preston to Southport, timetabled to connect with Merseyrail so that passengers from Preston, Croston and Rufford can change straight onto Merseyrail at Burscough Bridge
-mothball the direct line between Rufford and Burscough Junction for passenger services
-rename Burscough Junction - because it wouldn't be the junction station anymore - to Burscough

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't that roughly what I said other than the renaming, and I'd go half hourly Merseyrail to Burscough rather than hourly, plus the extension from Burscough Bridge to Southport?

The most logical renaming would be "Burscough Junction Lane", as that's where it is. The new one could be called "Burscough Mill Dam Lane" - it's been proposed on and off for years!

 

[backontrack]

Isn't that roughly what I said other than the renaming, and I'd go half hourly Merseyrail to Burscough rather than hourly, plus the extension from Burscough Bridge to Southport?

The most logical renaming would be "Burscough Junction Lane", as that's where it is. The new one could be called "Burscough Mill Dam Lane" - it's been proposed on and off for years!

Well I'm a muppet

I hadn't heard about Mill Dam Lane, but if it went ahead then that would be two birds with one stone.

 

[PR1Berske]

The most sensible pattern to me would be to build Burscough Bridge to a 4-platform interchange and operate as follows:-

Merseyrail: half hourly continuation on from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge calling at Mill Dam Lane (new station) and Burscough Junction. The "other" half hour could go to Skem if desired, but it's more likely Skem will be served as an extension of the Kirkby line. For a half hourly service the line would not need doubling, just electrifying; I worked out a timetable that worked ages ago.

Northern: Hourly Preston to Burscough Bridge (single unit) on a timetable that co-ordinates with the Merseyrail service. Alternatively two units could I think run a through service to Southport.

All other services as they are, but if there are still any Northern services that miss Burscough Bridge, reinstate the stop.

Mothball the direct Rufford-Burscough Jn line and bridge.

The costs soon add up with your plans though. Track, platforms, signalling, a new railway station: what suffers from the money going to Burscough?

Lancs CC is, supposedly, focused only on Skem. Nothing else will get a look in.

 

[childwallblues]

Given that most of them are Scousers who have gone upmarket...

Upmarket? To Skelmersdale?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Upmarket? To Skelmersdale?

We were talking about Aughton and Ormskirk, weren't we?

 

[childwallblues]

We were talking about Aughton and Ormskirk, weren't we?

If you were they are not as upmarket as some parts of South Liverpool.

 

[Gareth]

Skem will be linked via Kirkby, which is the right call, I think.

Personally, I think Ormskirk is the natural terminus for Merseyrail on this line. I'm sure an argument could be made for Burscough as a place on the very edge of the Liverpool metropolitan area but it's smaller than Ormskirk and that bit more distant. Certainly if it could only justify 1tph it wouldn't be worth the messing about. 2tph is borderline maybe and you could argue that the Ellesmere Port branch has this frequency but I still think you would struggle to justify electrification. As a side note, once mainline services resume between Chester & Lime Street, I'd like to see Chester-Birkenhead-Liverpool reduced to 3tph and Ellesmere Port upped to 3tph giving a clockface 6tph between Hamilton Square & Hooton.

I reckon it's more important to have a direct Ormskirk-Southport train. I'd reinstate the southerly curve and have Ormskirk-Southport 1tph and Ormskirk-Preston 1tph. This would give 2tph between Burscough Bridge and Ormskirk rather than 1tph, and 1tph for Burscough Junction rather than 0tph. This would improve connection onto Merseyrail from Burscough and the stations in between there and Southport. The Ormskirk-Southport train would take up the smaller stops allowing the Southport-Wigan/Manchester trains to run fast. I've heard of Mill Dam as a tentative proposal for a new station but looking on Streetview I'm not sure there's the density in the area to justify it, unless there's plans to build on the fields immediately to the east.

 

[Elecman]

If the new Stadler units have a battery operation capability then why not install both curves. Close the line between the curves and Burscough Junction station and have both curves bi directionaly signalled. No need for any 3rd Rail extension. Preston services could then run through to Southport.

 

[Gareth]

Merseyrail's a high frequency urban network. I can't imagine it serving places like Hall Lane, let alone running Southport-Preston. Best leave that line with Northern who'd have to provide the Wigan/Manchester services along there anyway.

The problem with opening both curves is that you'd have 4tph between Southport & Burscough, which I don't think can be justified, unless one or both services terminate at Busrcough Bridge. Opening just the south and keeping the direct line to Preston would mean 3tph Southport-Burscough (which is almost certainly enough) whilst maintaining the existing Ormskirk-Preston connection. I'm not sure how the diagrams would work. I'm guessing it maybe could be done with two units going Preston-Ormskirk-Southport-Ormskirk-Preston, in which case Ormskirk to the curves would probably have to be doubled. The upside is that you could probably go from Southport to Preston on the same train, even if it wasn't as direct as it could be. It would nonetheless be a big improvement on the current situation. If you could keep the two services separate (a unit each for Ormskirk-Southport & Ormskirk-Preston) you could get away with keeping the line single but at the cost of the interchange between the two services being not nearly as convenient.

 

[IanXC]

Northern: Hourly Preston to Burscough Bridge (single unit) on a timetable that co-ordinates with the Merseyrail service. Alternatively two units could I think run a through service to Southport.

This would require construction of a new chord from the Ormskirk to Preston route onto the Southport lines no?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This would require construction of a new chord from the Ormskirk to Preston route onto the Southport lines no?

Sounds good to me !!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would require construction of a new chord from the Ormskirk to Preston route onto the Southport lines no?

Well, the reopening of the North Curve. The infrastructure is already there sort-of, but I'd expect a lot of structural work needed given how long it's been closed.

 

[Karl]

As a Prestonian, Southport has been the least accessible place. As kids we used to cycle 14 miles for a visit during the school holidays for an enjoyable day out. A simple curve at Burscough would bring the two Lancashire towns into contact again since the West Lancs line closed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a Prestonian, Southport has been the least accessible place. As kids we used to cycle 14 miles for a visit during the school holiday for an enjoyable day out. A simple curve at Burscough would bring the two Lancashire towns into contact again since the West Lancs line closed.

Much as I support this reinstatement, there is a good (Stagecoach Gold I think) half hourly bus service and long has been.

 

[DarloRich]

Merseyrail buffer stops at Kirkby, Ormskirk and Ellesmere Port - do Mersey Rail have a special type of buffer stop?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail buffer stops at Kirkby, Ormskirk and Ellesmere Port - do Mersey Rail have a special type of buffer stop?

No, but they do have unusual station layouts - in the case of Ormskirk and Kirkby (no such arrangement at Ellesmere Port) there is a single platform with sets of buffer stops in the middle, completely segregating Merseyrail from the diesel branch line with no through running possible.

 

[DarloRich]

No, but they do have unusual station layouts - in the case of Ormskirk and Kirkby (no such arrangement at Ellesmere Port) there is a single platform with sets of buffer stops in the middle, completely segregating Merseyrail from the diesel branch line with no through running possible.

 

[185]

No, but they do have unusual station layouts - in the case of Ormskirk and Kirkby (no such arrangement at Ellesmere Port) there is a single platform with sets of buffer stops in the middle, completely segregating Merseyrail from the diesel branch line with no through running possible.

Unusual it may be, but for disabled and passenger access it is ideal when transferring train to train.

 

[IanXC]

Well, the reopening of the North Curve. The infrastructure is already there sort-of, but I'd expect a lot of structural work needed given how long it's been closed.

The question is, is that an important enough link for a change at Burscough not to be good enough??

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question is, is that an important enough link for a change at Burscough not to be good enough??

The problem with "a change at Burscough" is that that at present involves a rather long walk and so is unattractive.

 

[furnessvale]

Unusual it may be, but for disabled and passenger access it is ideal when transferring train to train.

Not as good as crossing an island platform, which involves a much shorter walk.

 

[IanXC]

The problem with "a change at Burscough" is that that at present involves a rather long walk and so is unattractive.

I read one of the earlier steps as being creating a 4 platform Burscough 'interchange' station - a la Smethwick Galton Bridge or Worcestershire Parkway.

With a change like that I think there would be little case for spending significantly more money creating a through route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read one of the earlier steps as being creating a 4 platform Burscough 'interchange' station - a la Smethwick Galton Bridge or Worcestershire Parkway.

With a change like that I think there would be little case for spending significantly more money creating a through route.

Oh, I see, I thought the proposal was to make Burscough Bridge a 4 platform station. Certainly that was my proposal; you'd have a terminating Merseyrail platform, 2 through platforms and a terminating Preston platform.

The problem with doing as you say is that it would be nowhere near any of the local demand if you look at a map of the layout of Burscough - it'd actually be in the middle of a field. So it would probably be worse than the status quo, and possibly quite costly, too, due to the need to build on the bridge.

I think doing as you suggest would reduce passenger numbers overall.

 

[IanXC]

Oh, I see, I thought the proposal was to make Burscough Bridge a 4 platform station. Certainly that was my proposal; you'd have a terminating Merseyrail platform, 2 through platforms and a terminating Preston platform.

The problem with doing as you say is that it would be nowhere near any of the local demand if you look at a map of the layout of Burscough - it'd actually be in the middle of a field. So it would probably be worse than the status quo, and possibly quite costly, too, due to the need to build on the bridge.

I think doing as you suggest would reduce passenger numbers overall.

Oh gotcha. I read each bullet point as potentially separate schemes.

I'm not sure that it would be as much of a problem as you describe - 'Burscough Interchange' would be closer to Junction and Bridge and Junction and Bridge are to each other currently. You wouldn't need to necessarily build on the bridge itself, if the platforms were south and west of the bridge on each line then they would effectively form 2 sides of where a suitable car park could be placed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To not be on a bridge, you would have to go a *long* way South with the Ormskirk line platforms, which would mean a long walk for interchange - it'd be something a bit like Shotton which is very much sub-optimal, and in some ways (because railway paths tend to feel quite unsafe) worse than the present street level walk. (Take a look at an OS 1:50K map on Bing to see the length of the bridge - it's longer than you perhaps think).

 

[IanXC]

To not be on a bridge, you would have to go a *long* way South with the Ormskirk line platforms, which would mean a long walk for interchange - it'd be something a bit like Shotton which is very much sub-optimal, and in some ways (because railway paths tend to feel quite unsafe) worse than the present street level walk. (Take a look at an OS 1:50K map on Bing to see the length of the bridge - it's longer than you perhaps think).

Its not that far! If the development boundary for the settlement were extended into this area south and west of the railway then there is no reason the walking routes could not be a street level walk anyway - such development could even be a way of funding such transport improvements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its not that far! If the development boundary for the settlement were extended into this area south and west of the railway then there is no reason the walking routes could not be a street level walk anyway - such development could even be a way of funding such transport improvements.

True. Though equally you would be much more likely to sell a development of premium homes if you brought Merseyrail in, and to me the best way to do that is the South Curve idea.

 

[childwallblues]

There has been a lot of talk on this thread about what everybody would like in the Burscough area.
However we must recognise that Burscough will be some way down Merseytravels list of priorities.
I would think that the following will be the top three on the Merseytravel priority list:-
1. Halton Curve (underway)
2. Skelmersdale via Kirkby
3. Bidston to Wrexham
What would come after that who knows but I imagine that the above will take us until 2030 to achieve. Personally I think at some point that they may go back to the Merseytram scheme.

 

[B&I]

I read one of the earlier steps as being creating a 4 platform Burscough 'interchange' station - a la Smethwick Galton Bridge or Worcestershire Parkway.

With a change like that I think there would be little case for spending significantly more money creating a through route.

This strikes me as the simplest way to achieve better connectivity, particularly if coupled with electrification, or battery running, of Merseyrail every 15 minutes to this new Burscough interchange, a Liverpool-Preston via Orsmkirk train every 30 minutes (to replace the Northern Preston-Ormskirk), and a half-hourly Manchester-Southport.