Merseyrail ban e-scooters from trains and stations

[WelshBluebird]

All the legal scooter hire schemes I am aware of are geo-fenced to a specific town/city, and are only meant for local journeys. If you transported one of the Northampton Voi schemes scooters to anywhere outside of the town it wouldn't work.

1. In some areas you can get a longer term rental which allows you to use it in a wider area that has slightly different rules than the pay as you ride scooters. For Bristol / Bath, each city is its own geofenced zone for the pay as you ride scooters, but if you have a longer term rental you can use it anywhere within either of the two geofenced areas.
2. Those single areas themselves can be pretty big too. The Bristol one extends from Avonmouth in the West of the city to Hanham in the East - and using a scooter alongside rail would actually be a pretty good way to do that commute I'd imagine.

 

[SargeNpton]

1. In some areas you can get a longer term rental which allows you to use it in a wider area that has slightly different rules than the pay as you ride scooters. For Bristol / Bath, each city is its own geofenced zone for the pay as you ride scooters, but if you have a longer term rental you can use it anywhere within either of the two geofenced areas.
2. Those single areas themselves can be pretty big too. The Bristol one extends from Avonmouth in the West of the city to Hanham in the East - and using a scooter alongside rail would actually be a pretty good way to do that commute I'd imagine.

Concerning point 1: though the Day and Month passes for Voi in Bristol/Bath allows travel in both cities, the conditions do not suggest that you can transport a scooter between the two of them. Each pass is limited by the number of rides or number of minutes in use, not for the time that it is in your possession.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Concerning point 1: though the Day and Month passes for Voi in Bristol/Bath allows travel in both cities, the conditions do not suggest that you can transport a scooter between the two of them. Each pass is limited by the number of rides or number of minutes in use, not for the time that it is in your possession.

I'm not talking about the day pass. I am talking about the longer term rentals where the scooter essentially becomes yours for the time period until you decide to give it up (or the scheme ends). You are responsible for storing it, charging it and keeping it secure when you take it out and about with you. The terms are that you need to live in the West of England Combined Authority area (which as an area is much much larger than the geofenced areas you can ride in).

And beyond that, given how successful the pay as you ride rental schemes have been, I can absolutely see a future where the use of a private escooter on public roads is legalised. Based on that I do think this is something that will crop up more and more over time, and is something that as it does, more and more people are likely to question the the whole ebikes being allowed but escooters not (of course, knowing the rail industry, as they have done with push bikes, I suspect the answer will just be to ban everything rather than acknowledge and support the expansion of alternative transport methods that actually have the potential to bring in more passengers if the industry really wanted it!).

 

[SargeNpton]

I'm not talking about the day pass. I am talking about the longer term rentals where the scooter essentially becomes yours for the time period until you decide to give it up (or the scheme ends). You are responsible for storing it, charging it and keeping it secure when you take it out and about with you. The terms are that you need to live in the West of England Combined Authority area (which as an area is much much larger than the geofenced areas you can ride in).

I have to admit that I was not aware of that long-term rental scheme. It's not mentioned on the Voi website as far as I can tell, with the only mention being on the WoE Combined Authority pages.

 

[VauxhallandI]

As ever, perfection is the enemy of the good. Banning e-bikes would be politically bad, and most e-bikes are fine.

It's a bit like airlines and laptops/phones. It would no doubt be best for safety were they banned from flights but it just isn't happening.

How many aircraft have been downed by a mobile phone fire on board?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many aircraft have been downed by a mobile phone fire on board?

How many people have been killed on trains due to a fire on an e-scooter battery?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I have to admit that I was not aware of that long-term rental scheme. It's not mentioned on the Voi website as far as I can tell, with the only mention being on the WoE Combined Authority pages.

https://ltr.voi.com/

It is one of the first results if you search for "voi long term rental" though admittedly it isn't linked to from their main website as far as I can see (I've had issues finding stuff on their website before, they seem to want you to download the app to get most of the info you'd want to).

Anyway, my point was that someone wanting to carry a legal escooter on a train isn't exactly that wild an idea, is entirely possible right now, and is likely to be a thing more people want to do in the future. How the railway tackles that challenge is important because in theory the scooters (and similar alternative means of transport) have a massive potential to act as feeders into the railway at a time when the industry is claiming it is struggling for passenger numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway, my point was that someone wanting to carry a legal escooter on a train isn't exactly that wild an idea, is entirely possible right now, and is likely to be a thing more people want to do in the future. How the railway tackles that challenge is important because in theory the scooters (and similar alternative means of transport) have a massive potential to act as feeders into the railway at a time when the industry is claiming it is struggling for passenger numbers.

Presumably if they're legalised there'll be a UKCA standard, so the railway can move to "only UKCA approved e-scooters can be carried on trains", and that will include the batteries being of a safe standard? I seem to recall the proposals involve a larger wheel size than is currently common, so they'll be fairly obvious if so.

 

[VauxhallandI]

How many people have been killed on trains due to a fire on an e-scooter battery?

How many fires have occurred on aircraft from mobile phones ?

 

[SargeNpton]

How many people have been killed on trains due to a fire on an e-scooter battery?

None so far, but at least two Underground trains have had to be evacuated by battery fires - one being an escooter.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm not talking about the day pass. I am talking about the longer term rentals where the scooter essentially becomes yours for the time period until you decide to give it up (or the scheme ends). You are responsible for storing it, charging it and keeping it secure when you take it out and about with you. The terms are that you need to live in the West of England Combined Authority area (which as an area is much much larger than the geofenced areas you can ride in).

And beyond that, given how successful the pay as you ride rental schemes have been, I can absolutely see a future where the use of a private escooter on public roads is legalised. Based on that I do think this is something that will crop up more and more over time, and is something that as it does, more and more people are likely to question the the whole ebikes being allowed but escooters not (of course, knowing the rail industry, as they have done with push bikes, I suspect the answer will just be to ban everything rather than acknowledge and support the expansion of alternative transport methods that actually have the potential to bring in more passengers if the industry really wanted it!).

Which will require a large change to legislation including potentially insurance and registration.

 

[VauxhallandI]

None so far, but at least two Underground trains have had to be evacuated by battery fires - one being an escooter.

Yes so definitely an issue unlike phones on aircraft

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes so definitely an issue unlike phones on aircraft

I'm certain that they'd evacuate an aircraft when a phone or laptop went up (which has happened) were it not for the fact that being at 35K feet makes that slightly difficult.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'm certain that they'd evacuate an aircraft when a phone or laptop went up (which has happened) were it not for the fact that being at 35K feet makes that slightly difficult.

So I wil ask you again, when has there been a phone fire aboard an aircraft?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I wil ask you again, when has there been a phone fire aboard an aircraft?

There have been several.

I'd recommend typing "phone fire aircraft" into Google if you'd like to read about some of them.

None of them caused a crash, but neither have any of the scooter fires on trains or stations caused a fatal incident comparable to one.

 

[43066]

Yes so definitely an issue unlike phones on aircraft

Is a phone battery the same size as a e scooter battery? Nope.

Watch a video of an e-bike going up (plenty available on YouTube). It isn’t rocket science to understand why that would be a bad outcome on a train.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Is a phone battery the same size as a e scooter battery? Nope.

Watch a video of an e-bike going up (plenty available on YouTube). It isn’t rocket science to understand why that would be a bad outcome on a train.

Where did I say it wasn’t?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2023 ==

I will; thanks for being patronising

 

[WelshBluebird]

Presumably if they're legalised there'll be a UKCA standard, so the railway can move to "only UKCA approved e-scooters can be carried on trains", and that will include the batteries being of a safe standard? I seem to recall the proposals involve a larger wheel size than is currently common, so they'll be fairly obvious if so.

I do wonder what the result will be. In terms of ebikes, they need to follow pretty strict power limits which I'd imagine also means the batteries are smaller. And I guess the fact they basically the look the same as regular bike also means you are less likely to get challenged anyway. But escooters are pretty different to that!

 

[Krokodil]

What happens if they do?

“Tell them to get off” appears to be the policy, at least according to what I’ve heard.

I find that asking them if they intend to pay for their ticket is a surefire way of getting them off.

 

[Scott1]

How many aircraft have been downed by a mobile phone fire on board?

E scooters are also banned on aircraft unless they are a designated mobility aid. This is due their battery size and the fire risk this creates.

Where did I say it wasn’t?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2023 ==

I will; thanks for being patronising

You seem fixated on phone batteries being OK, so it seems necessary to point out the biggest difference is their capacity. The higher capacity is why there is a risk of a fire that can not be extinguished easily.

 

[Kite159]

London Underground has banned them, I once saw a bizarre incident of some guy boarding a Waterloo & City train with an escooter and the staffs soon got on at him, they made him get off, he was moaning and griefing about harrassment and bullying.

I don't understand how he managed to get it past the ticket barriers in the first place.

Was it at Waterloo or at Bank?

No barriers for the W&C line at Waterloo and maybe he arrived at Bank via the DLR to avoid barriers.

 

[43066]

Where did I say it wasn’t?

I will; thanks for being patronising

Not trying to be patronising at all, I was helping you with a point you had missed, or so I thought.

You seem fixated on phone batteries being OK, so it seems necessary to point out the biggest difference is their capacity. The higher capacity is why there is a risk of a fire that can not be extinguished easily.

Indeed. Not rocket science.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The patronising comment was supposed to be directed at Bletchley

 

[Malaxa]

Presumably if they're legalised there'll be a UKCA standard, so the railway can move to "only UKCA approved e-scooters can be carried on trains", and that will include the batteries being of a safe standard? I seem to recall the proposals involve a larger wheel size than is currently common, so they'll be fairly obvious if so.

I'm sure station staff at the barrier will enjoy policing those policies, searching for "kite marks" and checking wheel sizes with a tape measure

 

[jon0844]

UKCA still isn't even a thing, but I'm sure the Chinese companies on Wish.com are already putting CE and UKCA labels on everything anyway. Given the lack of customs/border staff, I am sure most of these get into the country without any trouble at all.

 

[Vespa]

Was it at Waterloo or at Bank?

No barriers for the W&C line at Waterloo and maybe he arrived at Bank via the DLR to avoid barriers.

It was at bank, I took a pic to tell my mate about it as I was surprised to see it on board.

He probably used the DLR.