Meridian/Pioneer haters out there?

[Techniquest]

Been wanting to start this one for a while, I see no reason not to do it now.

Being the forum's primary Meridian (include Pioneers under this heading) hater, I was wondering if anyone else actually dislikes the things and why.

Primary reasons for hating the things:

- Vibrate like hell when power is applied, which in turn shakes the tables no end and you can easily lose a cup of coffee to the table (happened on my first and only trip in FC on a 222)

- They look bloody ugly

- The stupidly cramped buffet area

- The incredibly uncomfortable seats (which seem to get worse in FC)

- I get a little claustrophobic on the things, especially in the lavatories (no natural light or anything)

Anyone else got a dislike for the things? It should be noted that I found the above experiences the same on Hull Trains' Pioneers as well as on MML's Meridians. And yes, I've tried Meridians and Pioneers for lengthy periods of time (Meridians more so than Pioneers) to get a balanced view of the things over time.

I will add that I do enjoy most modern traction, the only other class of train I hate as much as the 222s would be the 442s.

Please note: I do not want to see pro-Meridian/pro-Pioneer postings in this thread. This is for any 222 haters/dislikers to vent off about the things.

 

[djw1981]

Are they worse than a Voyager? (Which is the most cramped claustrophobic, smelly, hot, stale aired uncomfortable mode of travel known to man IMO!)

 

[Pumbaa]

Actually, I'd rather sit in a Voyager. The Meridians standard seating makes it extremely claustrophobic, and make it seem smaller than it is. Pioneers aren't too bad for that, but it looks too "busy", and the interior designers for both of them didn't adopt a holistic approach. The Voyagers on the other hand have a bright interior, more comfortable seats than the Meridians at least and more often than not have friendly TMs crewing them!

 

[BJMorley]

All 3 are cr*p!!!
1.They are German
2.They have no purpose - MML just brought them in when their 'Project Rio' failed
3.EMT have made the class worse by painting an unsuitable livery on them - just look at the front!!
4.You can't even see the number on Full Trains 222s!!!
Brandon

 

[Jord]

I actually thought Meridians were not bad.

My experience on one was I thought that in Standard, most if not all seats are aligned with the windows, was quite comfy, soft lighting unlike a Voyager and quieter than a Voyager.

But that's just my opinion and I haven't been on a Meridian in a while now, i've never been on a Pioneer and I really hate Voyagers.

Voyagers are the worst out the lot.

 

[Max]

The Voyagers on the other hand have a bright interior, more comfortable seats...

I'd disagree to be honest. The panels around Voyagers are in that awful cream/browny colour (can't really put my finger on their exact colour), whereas the 222s are white. This, in my opinion, gives them a fresh and bright feel inside. I think the Pioneers are perhaps a little brighter than the Meridians, simply because of the dark seat colours that are used in the Meridians. I also find the seats on 222s more comfortable than in the 221s, but neither are anywhere near as good as a HST for example.

 

[class 313]

All 3 are cr*p!!!
1.They are German
2.They have no purpose - MML just brought them in when their 'Project Rio' failed
3.EMT have made the class worse by painting an unsuitable livery on them - just look at the front!!
4.You can't even see the number on Full Trains 222s!!!
Brandon

222s in my opinion are way better than Voyagers. Much better seats, less vibrations than Voyagers and just seem nicer they also seem to have more room than Voyagers do. Though I do wish 222s had the blinds that 220s and 221s have when its sunny!

But still the EMT livery makes the 222s look better, in full sun only perhaps. My general opinion on 222s is they are nice to travel on and not too much lower state than a mk3 but I would prefer having a HST up the MML instead of a Meridian.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I actually thought Meridians were not bad.

My experience on one was I thought that in Standard, most if not all seats are aligned with the windows,

Nope, not true. Some you have a nice plastic panel to look at, though you do have 1/4 of a window to look through.

 

[Galvanize]

Voyagers=Bleugh! Simply do not understand why people think they're better trains than 222s!

Reasons Voyagers/Super Voyagers are crap:
1. Claustrophobic!
2. Not enough luggage space.
3. Totally unsuitable for the routes they operate, although XC have started to use HSTs on NE-SW routes
4. THREE disabled toilets, surely one would be sufficient, have the other two as Normal toilets! I was on a 5 car class 221 once, all the toilets were out of use, and if you were on it for the entire run from Bournemouth to Edinburgh (i was on from Birmingham New Street to Wolverhampton), it would be VERY uncomfortable!
5. The shop, just makes the area too congested with people trying to get on and off the train, and people queuing to buy things from the shop!
6. The fact they were designed by someone who had NEVER been on a [British] train before!
7. Vibration, though to be fair, the 222s suffer from it just as badly, as do most other modern DMUs!
8. Annoying Beeps and Buzzers that constantly sound!
9. The fact they were conceived by Virmin, to look better Aesthetically :x

 

[Julian G]

All 3 are cr*p!!!
1.They are German

They were built in Brugge, Belgium not in Germany as stated

2.They have no purpose - MML just brought them in when their 'Project Rio' failed

They have a purpose, theirs was to replace the tacky Turbostars that were being used, i heard a Turbostar was used on a London St.Pancras-Scarborough working :roll: Although replacing a HST with Meridians would be pathetic

--------
220/221s has got to be the laughing stock of this country, they are not suited for IC work at all, even AXC didn't like them at all, and thanks god they are bringing back the Iconic HST back on service just like the way it used to be

222s are alright, i've been on them a couple of times, the seats are comfortable

 

[P156KWJ]

here's my opinion:
I hate them as much as I hate Voyagers, Pendolinos and Turbostars.
1: As with most modern stock these days, they are produced in mainland Europe cheaply. Within 25 years they will need replacing. Unlike British built machines such as 87s, which have done such a sterling job they are being exported for use elsewhere, units such as 222s will not cope with today's capacity problems on the railways. Also, a massive fault - why are the wheels so god darn small?! This makes them accelerate slower.
2: They have an annoying low-rumble engine noise, I'd prefer them to make a good noise or no noise at all.
3: They look ugly and plastic
4: The buffet counter area is tiny
5: Their doors take about 6 years to open

rant over (!)

 

[richa2002]

None of those are valid reasons by BRailNetwork. They weren't ordered because Project Rio failed, it was a massive success but was only ever going to run for a limited time. I personally actually found my journey up to Sheffield a month ago in first class more comfortable on the Meridian than the HST, don't know why because I've never felt like that before.

 

[Galvanize]

I personally actually found my journey up to Sheffield a month ago in first class more comfortable on the Meridian than the HST, don't know why because I've never felt like that before.

TBH, i think the FC on 222s (on EMT/MML, can't comment on HullTrains as i've never experienced their 222s, only 86101/mark 3s when it was running), is a massive let down, just feels almost the same as Standard class!

 

[djw1981]

here's my opinion:
I hate them as much as I hate Voyagers, Pendolinos and Turbostars.
1: As with most modern stock these days, they are produced in mainland Europe cheaply. Within 25 years they will need replacing. Unlike British built machines such as 87s,

170's were built by Bombardier in Derby IIRC. The 170 quality seems vastly different between FSR - large fleet, dedicated maintenance centre of excellence, and CT/EMT/LM - smaller fleet, many technical faults, insufficient capacity for some routes operated.

 

[Techniquest]

Please note: I do not want to see pro-Meridian/pro-Pioneer postings in this thread. This is for any 222 haters/dislikers to vent off about the things.

For me to then see 11 posts that are rather pro-222 in a thread specifically for those who hate the things...:roll:

I see some people have some serious hang-ups about Voyagers...

Please, folks, let's have a go at keeping this one on-topic. I don't want to see pro-222 discussion in this thread, as I specifically stated last night!

 

[class 313]

For me to then see 11 posts that are rather pro-222 in a thread specifically for those who hate the things...:roll:

I see some people have some serious hang-ups about Voyagers...

Please, folks, let's have a go at keeping this one on-topic. I don't want to see pro-222 discussion in this thread, as I specifically stated last night!

Well its best to see both sides, looks like the pro-222s are the majority.

 

[Techniquest]

Merr, I still reckon there's nothing good about them. I can't see anyone ever getting me to change my mind on that. I did on the Mallard refurb (as long as it's a HST one), but that took some doing.

Still awaiting the day the 222s get scrapped, I'll have an enormous grin on my face.

 

[Respite]

They are all crap 220-222, cheap made, badly designed, noisy rattle boxes. Falling apart already & sounding like a early 80's skoda.

But we live in the age of disposable trains, no TOC give a rat's arse about what they use. Just bums on seat=£'s in hand.If they could get away with packing people in freightliner containers they would.

 

[O L Leigh]

No matter what you feel about the units themselves, you have to concede that they have been enormously successful (especially the XC Cl220 and Cl221). Together with some sensible timetabling, they have transformed the cross country network from a third-rate IC service into one of the largest carriers on the network.

The thing is that the railway isn't run for the benefit of enthusiasts. However, as enthusiasts I would have thought that we would applaud anything that gives rail a boost rather than bemoaning it. Sure they could have designed the units differently and, like every train running on the network, there are aspects that could have been done better, but these things are personal and subjective (I've never been convinced about the interior of the Mk3 coach). Bums on seats is what the railway wants, otherwise it loses it's very reason for being.

 

[AlexS]

Disagree completely - what they've done is given the railways an image boost - and a temporary one at that.

Virgin are the modern day equivalent of the Great Western - the world's biggest PR department, figuratively speaking. They plugged and they plugged their shiny new trains, with at seat entertainment and 'the shop'. It all started to come unravelled when the HSTs were finally withdrawn and summer saturdays were taken into account.

The Cross Country network is the UKs biggest holiday carrier. And these trains have next to no room for any luggage.

These trains are fantastic for Reading to Manchester Picc business travel short hops - they're nippy, 'shiny' (although they're now getting very tatty and threadbare particularly with the fabric), and they look OK on the business front.

They then fall down entirely on the other half of the network, IE the holidaymakers. Our recent forum meet in the Midlands wound up with us for whatever reason catching a Manchester to Plymouth train from Stafford, which was formed of a 5 car 221. The passengers piled in the vestibules, packed around the shop, and everywhere else having left Wolverhampton, and not even Birmingham, were certainly not singing anybodies praises. This was on a weekday, not a summer saturday. This is pretty much the norm for Cross Country in the summer.

The Voyager fleet is 100% unfit for purpose on the majority of services it operates and is pretty much unbearable in the summer months and in the peak.

 

[class 313]

Disagree completely - what they've done is given the railways an image boost - and a temporary one at that.

Virgin are the modern day equivalent of the Great Western - the world's biggest PR department, figuratively speaking. They plugged and they plugged their shiny new trains, with at seat entertainment and 'the shop'. It all started to come unravelled when the HSTs were finally withdrawn and summer saturdays were taken into account.

The Cross Country network is the UKs biggest holiday carrier. And these trains have next to no room for any luggage.

These trains are fantastic for Reading to Manchester Picc business travel short hops - they're nippy, 'shiny' (although they're now getting very tatty and threadbare particularly with the fabric), and they look OK on the business front.

They then fall down entirely on the other half of the network, IE the holidaymakers. Our recent forum meet in the Midlands wound up with us for whatever reason catching a Manchester to Plymouth train from Stafford, which was formed of a 5 car 221. The passengers piled in the vestibules, packed around the shop, and everywhere else having left Wolverhampton, and not even Birmingham, were certainly not singing anybodies praises. This was on a weekday, not a summer saturday. This is pretty much the norm for Cross Country in the summer.

The Voyager fleet is 100% unfit for purpose on the majority of services it operates and is pretty much unbearable in the summer months and in the peak.

The 220s and 221s would suit the route more, if they were actually longer. Like the 222s.

 

[P156KWJ]

The 220s and 221s would suit the route more, if they were actually longer. Like the 222s.

well some 222s are shorter than 221s

they have just given the railway a 'better' image. All modern stuff has silly flashy names like 'meridian, pendolino, pioneer, adelante, desiro) and it makes me laugh that the people who manage the TOCs haven't travelled on them in standard class on a regular basis to see what it's like all the time.

 

[O L Leigh]

They then fall down entirely on the other half of the network, IE the holidaymakers. Our recent forum meet in the Midlands wound up with us for whatever reason catching a Manchester to Plymouth train from Stafford, which was formed of a 5 car 221. The passengers piled in the vestibules, packed around the shop, and everywhere else having left Wolverhampton, and not even Birmingham, were certainly not singing anybodies praises. This was on a weekday, not a summer saturday. This is pretty much the norm for Cross Country in the summer.

The Voyager fleet is 100% unfit for purpose on the majority of services it operates and is pretty much unbearable in the summer months and in the peak.

I'm not sure that this is a fault of the fleet as such as with the ordering and rostering of these units. If they been made 6 cars in length with decent luggage racks or there were sufficient spares to double-up the problems might have been less.

The problem is that you can't base your entire rolling stock strategy on what happens six weeks of the year. If you lay on adequate stock to deal with the holiday crush, what will you do during the other 46 weeks when your 7 car HST's are running less than half full.

Maybe the public are shallow and easily impressed with shiny new trains, but that has always been the case. Quite frankly I've no problem with this if it helps to ensure passenger travel by rail continues to be viable and passenger numbers grow. As much as enthusiasts may mourn the passing LH and HST services, the majority of rail passengers couldn't give a stuff about them. I seriously cannot believe that the XC network would be as successful as it is today without a new fleet of trains. Don't misunderstand me by taking this as a defence of the Voyagers as a fleet of trains, but you just can't argue with the numbers and should recognise the part they have played in the recent success of XC.

O L Leigh

 

[TheSlash]

I think the biggest flaw from my experience is the reversing at Reading. I appreciate that when the fleet was ordered, the expansion in custom was never dreamed of.
Branson should invest a few of his millions in a half decent station at Reading West and a LRT system between that and Reading main. Then start running longer services, if only to Birmingham or further north.

 

[AlexS]

I'm not sure that this is a fault of the fleet as such as with the ordering and rostering of these units. If they been made 6 cars in length with decent luggage racks or there were sufficient spares to double-up the problems might have been less.

The problem is that you can't base your entire rolling stock strategy on what happens six weeks of the year. If you lay on adequate stock to deal with the holiday crush, what will you do during the other 46 weeks when your 7 car HST's are running less than half full.

Maybe the public are shallow and easily impressed with shiny new trains, but that has always been the case. Quite frankly I've no problem with this if it helps to ensure passenger travel by rail continues to be viable and passenger numbers grow. As much as enthusiasts may mourn the passing LH and HST services, the majority of rail passengers couldn't give a stuff about them. I seriously cannot believe that the XC network would be as successful as it is today without a new fleet of trains. Don't misunderstand me by taking this as a defence of the Voyagers as a fleet of trains, but you just can't argue with the numbers and should recognise the part they have played in the recent success of XC.

O L Leigh

Like I said in the first part of my post, Virgin have an excellent PR department and spun the story very successfully indeed. That is as good as me agreeing with your last sentence, re: success of XC.

The point remains that the trains are still not suitable - it's the short termist thinking on the railway that is the problem.

Before privatisation, you had your carriage sidings. You dumped rolling stock in there for 2 things - peak additional trains, and summer extra trains as well as footexs and things. They were quite rancid and in a mess, but they covered for you anyway. This is no different to the XC HSTs at current which are quite nasty in appearance and ride even worse than they look, my experience the other week showed.

Now you have to pay money to a third party to dump your rolling stock in a yard.

People DO use the railway as the gateway to the south west and south coast, as well as places like Skegness. Excusing the dangerous conditions which currently exist on some trains in the summer is not the answer to this. I've seen small children sat in the crumple zone on Voyagers - if the train crashed with a severe front end impact they'd probably be killed.

Regardless of all else safety is paramount and I firmly believe that whatever is trotted out by the PR departments of those concerned, safety is compromised on summer trains on the Cross Country network.

 

[O L Leigh]

It's not PR waffle. It's fact. Ridership on the XC network is up compared to the bad old days just after privatisation.

It strikes me that you are basing your dislike of these units on what happens on the XC network for 6 weeks out of 52. Are you broadly happy with them the rest of the time? What I'm trying to get across is that the TOC's failure to provide additional stock to get all the Brummies down to their caravans on the south coast for their summer hols is a separate issue and entirely unrelated to the matter currently under discussion.

O L Leigh

 

[djw1981]

But, Voyagers are often full to standing between Newcastle & Edinburgh, where they provide 1/3-1/2 of the services. The reintroduction of some HST's will allow for some doubling of Units to 8.9 or 10 car trains which will help to relieve some of the capacity issues on the network.

Part of the problem is west coast trains. With only a few Birmingham - Edinburgh/Glasgow via Carlisle services, and only 7 Manchester-Scotland services (TPE) and the Pendo's avoiding Manchester or Birmingham, much travel between Scotland and Yorkshire / Midlands is funneled down the ECML, and the NXEC trains can cope with this well, but because the traveling public likes journeys without changes, then they will take the XC service.

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem is that the need for capacity exists only at certain times and certain places on the network. There's no doubt that XC has been a victim of it's own success which has caught them somewhat "on the hop". For that reason Arriva should be applauded for getting a limited number of HST's back onto the network.

However, I will say again that this is a separate issue to the issue currently under discussion. If we were talking about the stock utilisation strategies of Arriva XC and VXC before them then I would be in wholehearted agreement with you, but we're not. Are the Voyager/Meridien/Pioneer family of DEMU's actually bad trains or are they just not being correctly utilised? Unless we can seperate out these two different issues then it becomes difficult to have any meaningful discussion about the merits and faults of the trains. I happen to believe that they could have been designed better, but recognise that they have been a huge success in spite of this.

So what are we actually discussing?

O L Leigh

 

[djw1981]

Personally I dislike the plasticky interiors, but plastic is a cheapo material and these things are built to a price. I also dislike distributed power, but BR and then DfT etc seem to like it, an again price comes into it - units which can run on 1 engine out are more 'useful' I guess. None of them would win beauty contests, but then neither would a 156 or 158.

They are fit for purpose as trains, but political interfering which resulted in them being too short for the routes they were to run on has led to their poor image - thus they do not fit the task they are given.

I'm sure if the people crammed into EMT Norwich-Liverpool, or XC Stansted to Birmingham / Cardiff-Nottingham were offered the chance to travel by 22x instead of 170/15x, they would be delighted - more space, increased capacity,, better toilets etc.

On the above routes, the 158 is also unsuitable - too small, not exactly inter-city comfort (little I, little C) but no one criticises the 158 per se, they criticise the rolling stock situation in the UK. Surely the same applies to the 22x series.

 

[AlexS]

It's not PR waffle. It's fact. Ridership on the XC network is up compared to the bad old days just after privatisation.

It strikes me that you are basing your dislike of these units on what happens on the XC network for 6 weeks out of 52. Are you broadly happy with them the rest of the time? What I'm trying to get across is that the TOC's failure to provide additional stock to get all the Brummies down to their caravans on the south coast for their summer hols is a separate issue and entirely unrelated to the matter currently under discussion.

O L Leigh

I didn't say it WAS PR Waffle that the ridership increased. What I actually said was that it was PR Waffle that increased the ridership Two close things that are actually completely different! As I said earlier, the Great Western mastered the art of Railway PR and it's still in people's minds today. You don't see many mainline stations in LMS or LNER style, you see plenty in the style of the Western. Virgin did the same thing with XC and WC.

No, I'm not broadly happy with them the rest of the time for several reasons.

Firstly, I'm not sure why, but I've noticed a large increase in the number of defective toilets recently. By which I don't mean ones that smell, which seems to have gone now, or ones that because they have stupid sized water tanks empty before the end of the days work, I mean simply ones that have a piece of paper tacked to them saying 'Toilet Out Of Use'. Also encountered one recently that had no sign on it at all, no flashing red 'Out Of Use' light on or anything else, the door open button just wasn't functioning!

Secondly, the 'onboard entertainment system' which they made so much of originally does not work the vast majority of the time, in fact I'm not even convinced that Cross Country have it switched on anymore.

The Shop has that stupidly narrow walkway around it so you can't browse for anything or wait for a drink/bacon butty to be made up without blocking the way. Removing the shop is not the answer because the trolley just creates a moving blockage along the whole train - I've been stood behind one for over 25 minutes in one carriage alone on NXEC while trying to get back to my seat having gone to the toilet and very nearly lost my rag with standing there.

The vibration through the train isn't so bad on the move but when the train is at a stand it can be unbearable - this sounds like not a problem when you're usually only stood for two or three minutes, but some XC trains are booked to stand at New Street for going on 30 minutes - evening Manchester trains for example.

They aren't very good for adding small amounts of extra capacity as required to tone down their problems - you can either double it or nothing which obviously for a money oriented company means that quite often you just get 4 carriages turn up which isn't going to get better when some of the 5 car units go back to Virgin Trains.

It's not merely 6 weeks of the year they suffer from problems, it lasts on and off from May to about October and then Christmas shopping season kicks in - people trying to fit all their new goodies on board the train having gone for a huge shopping trip!

The rest of the time they suffer enormously on peak which may be acceptable for the average cattle cart on the Cross City line or summat running out of Liverpool Street to Shenfield or wherever, but not on what is supposed to be an Intercity working - the longest period I've been standing in the toilet, not just the vestibule on one of these trains was Exeter St Davids to Wolverhampton which is not a particularly short journey - and was also in March.

The roof mounted braking systems that render them completely incompatible with sea walls everywhere are also an obvious problem for a company that runs regularly from Exeter to Plymouth!!

 

[devon_metro]

I fail to believe that it is just 6 weeks of the year that these trains are busy! I often board them and struggle to find a seat. I was on the 1002 Paignton - Newcastle (formerly to Manchester, previously often showed a 221) which on this day was a 220 and it was on a random friday in May, it was full and standing by leaving Newton Abbot having made 3 stops. When I alighted at Teignmouth I saw a couple who could not find seats who were travelling to Sheffield. There was also a healthy amount of people waiting to get on at Teignmouth and presumably lots of Dawlish. Id hate to think what the scrum would have been like at Exeter St Davids. I pitty the poor souls that join the 0730/0830/0930 from Penzance! Oh - and the toilet smelt