Medical Emergencies

[Sebastian O]

The love of CQC compliance means that the only personal equipment we are meant to use now is a steth. Everything else should be SJA owned and maintained in order to normalise the equipment pool and enhance accountability and stuff.

A member I knew was an AA patrol. He was explicitly told not to do any vehicle maintenance. Instead he was to follow policy and call for the AA. (yay)

What a load of rubbish.

CQC don't regulate any qualifications in First Aid, and the HSE roughly set out the guidelines of First Aid.

And you'll also find that the use of a steth (or anything else such as electric blood pressure) are outside of First Aid and I suggest you don't use them unless you have been specifically trained; SJA won't cover you under their insurance if you use that equipment as it't not First aid.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What a load of rubbish.

CQC don't regulate any qualifications in First Aid, and the HSE roughly set out the guidelines of First Aid.

The CQC do regulate SJA though.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

What a load of rubbish.

CQC don't regulate any qualifications in First Aid, and the HSE roughly set out the guidelines of First Aid.

And you'll also find that the use of a steth (or anything else such as electric blood pressure) are outside of First Aid and I suggest you don't use them unless you have been specifically trained; SJA won't cover you under their insurance if you use that equipment as it't not First aid.

SJA operations is a CQC registered Ambulance Operator as well as under a few other categories

all SJA operational activitiy is held to those standards ...

SJA unsurisingly covers it's operational members to the level they are trained / accredited at and even for 'basic' First aiders it goes rather further than the bare minimums of a FAW ( some what a tangent as to the limitations of someone at work for another employer)

That said even when the HSE regulated First Aid in the workplace ,FAW was the MINIMUM acceptable content not the limit of first aid.

 

[Lockwood]

What a load of rubbish.

CQC don't regulate any qualifications in First Aid, and the HSE roughly set out the guidelines of First Aid.

And you'll also find that the use of a steth (or anything else such as electric blood pressure) are outside of First Aid and I suggest you don't use them unless you have been specifically trained; SJA won't cover you under their insurance if you use that equipment as it't not First aid.

http://www.cqc.org.uk/location/1-473323538
SJA have me given training for manual blood pressure and chest auscultation with the steth.
SJA tried to issue me a twin-tube steth a while ago, which I declined to accept since I already had a Littmann, so it was able to save charity funds by being made available to someone else who needed it.
I'm even let loose with blue lights in SJA.
I've even got my service medal.

Please, tell me more about how I am talking rubbish on this subject.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Maybe not successfully but quite a few have been taken to Court!

A position I would rather not be in so if* a first aid course was offered in work I would not be volunteering for it!

* not likely to be offered in my lifetime anyway!

Name a single case. Go on.... No???

No win no fee lawyers won't touch them, for good reason. Neither will paid for solicitors who will advise their clients not to bother.

 

[duncanp]

There was a new Act of Parliament passed this year (The Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Act) which defined the law regarding people who help in an emergency.

http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/what-we-d...-from-2015/february-2015/new-heroism-law.aspx

In the past, there was a legal case Catley vs St John Ambulance Brigade where someone tried to sue the St John Ambulance Brigade after receiving first aid treatment from them.

The case was thrown out, however, and the judge said that a first aider could not be sued if he or she was a member of a recognised organisation, had a current certificate, and was administering first aid in accordance with current instructions. To make first aiders legally liable would have meant that far fewer people would volunteer to be first aiders, which would fail the public interest test that judges apply when considering legal judgements.

There was a similar case when someone tried to sue a referee in a game of rugby for "not keeping proper control of the game" after he was injured. To make sports referees liable for injuries received during a game would have meant that no-one would be willing to be a referee, and would mean the end of games like rugbyand football.

 

[Hartington]

An interesting discussion which has parallels in the aviation industry.

Many people seem to believe that an airliner will divert immediately someone on board falls ill. In practice the nearest airport may not be capable of handling the aircraft and it may well be that continuing, at least a little and often to destination, will bring you to somewhere that has better hospitals than might be available immediately.

One thing the pilots of an aircraft have that I don't believe train drivers (or conductor/guards) have is access to medical advice by radio. They use commercial services (although for the life of me Google won't supply a link) which makes me wonder whether railways use similar systems. From the discussion it seems to me the railways could take an extra step.

 

[455driver]

Name a single case. Go on.... No???

No win no fee lawyers won't touch them, for good reason. Neither will paid for solicitors who will advise their clients not to bother.

We had one about 10 years ago, got to Court but was soon thrown out!

 

[Llanigraham]

Sebastian O - You keep saying the same thing, but haven't once justified your comments or explained your position.

I know what I was trained to do with SJA and what equipment to use. It was accepted that some of that equipment was not supplied by SJA, but by myself and other members, especially when it was very specialist items.

I have also checked with friends who are members and they are using their own equipment with no problems.

 

[LordCreed]

Just going to clear up a few points about SJA and how they are regulated by the CQC.

The CQC regulate the following aspects of SJA:

-Ambulance Services
--Ambulance trust support/contracts
--Clinical commissioning group (CCG) commissioned services
--Major incidents
--Ambulance provision at events

-Homeless Services

-St John Care Home - Whitstable

The CQC does not cover any first aid delivery at public events, nor does it regulate any non-health care professionals who are trained to provide first aid.

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As for personal equipment, to paraphrase the summary of the latest alert I've received on the matter states:

- All ambulance crews / first aiders should utilise the equipment provided by SJA and should not use any personal equipment.
- The only exception is for a stethoscope or if you're a health care professional. Although there is some restrictions on the latter, this forum isn't the place for them...

I believe that anything non-clinical (i.e. fob watch, torch, etc...) isn't restricted as long as it follows the uniform guidelines.

 

[mark-h]

One thing the pilots of an aircraft have that I don't believe train drivers (or conductor/guards) have is access to medical advice by radio. They use commercial services (although for the life of me Google won't supply a link) which makes me wonder whether railways use similar systems. From the discussion it seems to me the railways could take an extra step.

Diverting an aircraft for a medical emergency is far more expensive and time consuming than stopping a train at a station, if the flight crew run out of hours then the plane and passengers may be stranded for some time.

The airlines have access to services like MedAire to provide advice on how to best treat an ill customer making use of the on board kit, potentially reducing diversions. They also assist arrange diversions.

Another reason that the airlines have these services and supplies on board is that there may be a significant distance to the nearest suitable airport that has the required medical facilities nearby. Trains, in the UK, are never that far away from a station and hospital.

In first aid training one of the key things that is taught is when to get help, basic first aid is intended to try to stabilise the situation until assistance arrives.

A properly coordinated additional station stop may be the best option for the patient and reduce the operational impact on the railways- this would not always be the next station on the line but possibly a staffed station with more facilities where the patient can be removed from the train and assisted.

 

[Hellfire]

Having been on a VT Pendo when someone collapsed I think the biggest problem is stopping some well meaning but misguided individual from pulling the emergency handle.

A woman collapsed between Wigan and Preston. Train manager called for any medically trained passengers on board and a couple of nurses turned up. Meanwhile, three of us were trying to stop one chap who was insisting on pulling the handle which, if the train had stopped, would have left us out in the countryside somewhere near Leyland. Eventually we persuaded him to desist and let the train run at full speed into Preston which was only four or five minutes away. Paramedics on hand when we arrived so everything handled well by staff.

I don't know whether the train would have stopped or whether whoever pulls the handle in a Pendo would get a conversation with the driver but better to let the train run run on to a major station in my view.

 

[Domh245]

Having been on a VT Pendo when someone collapsed I think the biggest problem is stopping some well meaning but misguided individual from pulling the emergency handle.

A woman collapsed between Wigan and Preston. Train manager called for any medically trained passengers on board and a couple of nurses turned up. Meanwhile, three of us were trying to stop one chap who was insisting on pulling the handle which, if the train had stopped, would have left us out in the countryside somewhere near Leyland. Eventually we persuaded him to desist and let the train run at full speed into Preston which was only four or five minutes away. Paramedics on hand when we arrived so everything handled well by staff.

I don't know whether the train would have stopped or whether whoever pulls the handle in a Pendo would get a conversation with the driver but better to let the train run run on to a major station in my view.

On a similar note, there was once a lady who fainted onboard a packed tram that I was on one morning. One lady tried to operate what she thought was the alarm to alert the driver to this, except that she very nearly pulled the emergency door release handle, whilst we were travelling at something like 70km/h. Fortunately, after I pointed out that the big red handle wasn't actually the alarm, she didn't pull it (something since rectified with huge green covers over the handles). Thankfully, the lady fainted just after we had left Phipps bridge, so the de-tramming and paramedics arrival was able to happen at Morden Road, which was a damn sight more convenient.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Just going to clear up a few points about SJA and how they are regulated by the CQC.
<snip>

The CQC does not cover any first aid delivery at public events, nor does it regulate any non-health care professionals who are trained to provide first aid.

<snip>.

except of course there is no clear definition or division of this ...