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Measuring bus passenger usage

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stevenedin

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How do bus operators measure their bus passenger usage? I’ve thought about it and they can’t solely rely on the ticket sales?

How do they know where someone is getting off if there is no tap off scheme in place? Do they check I the CCTV?

Also ticket sales aren’t always accurate as sometimes the machine doesn’t work or the driver presses the wrong option etc?
 
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Stan Drews

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How do bus operators measure their bus passenger usage? I’ve thought about it and they can’t solely rely on the ticket sales?

How do they know where someone is getting off if there is no tap off scheme in place? Do they check I the CCTV?

Also ticket sales aren’t always accurate as sometimes the machine doesn’t work or the driver presses the wrong option etc?
Not just ticket sales, but also ticket ‘use’, as most operators record the use of whatever type of ticket is presented for travel. It isn’t 100% accurate - nothing would be - but it does provide a very good base point for any analysis.
 

SSmith2009

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I know with ticketer machines drivers can log passenger numbers boarding/alighting (this was introduced during covid for the various distancing measures) and the operator could then use this to track how busy a journey is
 

mjc

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I know with ticketer machines drivers can log passenger numbers boarding/alighting (this was introduced during covid for the various distancing measures) and the operator could then use this to track how busy a journey is
Yep, was going to mention this. First Potteries we’re still using this when I was last on one of their service (a couple of months ago, I tend to cycle in the summer as much as possible!)
 

bristol1996

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Ticketer is how bus passengers are monitored. The driver can log each time someone gets on and off the bus.
 
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dan5324

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Some also have spotter cameras or count cameras. You’ll see them on the ceiling, usually near the door/doors as two little lenses pointing down.
 

WibbleWobble

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Ticketer is how bus passengers are monitored. The driver can log each time someone gets on and off the bus.
Only if the operator has paid for the alighting function. Something I was told was that Ticketer offered it as freebie during the height of the Pandemic, but has since made it a (rather expensive) chargeable add-on.
 

Roger1973

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There isn't a simple answer to this, and in most cases, the only accurate thing to be recorded is boarding point (and that can vary if some or all forms of non-cash ticket require drivers to press a button to record it, as driver compliance will vary.) Where tickets are smartcard or involve a QR code, then the type of ticket will be recorded fully, relying on drivers to press different combinations of button for each type of ticket will have some degree of inaccuracy.

Even where a non cash transaction (return tickets, day or longer tickets, concession passes) is recorded by a machine, or where there's a flat / zone fare scheme, the machine won't know where that passenger is getting off. Some earlier generations of electronic ticket machine (ETM) would record an alighting point for non-cash journeys, but this could either be the final point on the route, or the point where the most recent cash ticket was issued to.

To an extent, you can take boardings in one direction and assume that an equivalent number of people will get off at the equivalent stop in the opposite direction - there may be some cases where this is more accurate than others, and doesn't give detail in terms of time of day.

Not all operators want to pay ETM providers for add-ons, and I'd expect that driver compliance with recording alighting passengers is going to be even less reliable than their recording of boarding passengers - especially at the few operators who still have centre exit buses. In theory, an operator can compare figures recorded by each driver and 'have words' with drivers whose figures are consistently well outside the average, but not sure how many operators have the office staff resources to do this, or the desire to 'carpet' drivers for minor things while there's a significant driver shortage across much of the industry.

I've not had any experience of cameras near the door/s being used for this, or of operators trawling through CCTV for origin + destination information.
 

richw

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I know with ticketer machines drivers can log passenger numbers boarding/alighting (this was introduced during covid for the various distancing measures) and the operator could then use this to track how busy a journey is
Stagecoach Vix machines have the same function.
If someone shows an m ticket we record what it is, and there’s a passenger off button.
 

markymark2000

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Stagecoach Vix machines have the same function.
If someone shows an m ticket we record what it is, and there’s a passenger off button.
Some drivers record passes. Yesterday I went on 8 buses with a Merseytravel Saveaway on a rail ticket and I don't believe it was logged once. Whenever I have used Plusbus as well, that is rarely logged. The occasional driver does log it but extremely rarely.

MTickets I know a lot of Stagecoach drivers used to just click 'Pass use' rather than log the actual ticket used. With Stagecoach starting to use QR scanners for m-tickets though, I think that maybe the actual usage of these tickets will start to be logged better.
 

stevenedin

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Thanks for the replies everyone. It’s looking like they probably don’t have a 100% accurate way of checking but possibly they may work out the total money raised by tickets sold or by passes/day tickets recorded on each run to see whether or not it is a profitable route.

It is still unknown which method operators use to obtain information on which part of a route is no longer profitable before the route is curtailed other than tickets being bought from that point of the route. It doesn’t take into account the people alighting there unless the bus operator has the system in place to record passengers getting off the bus.
 

Roger1973

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Thanks for the replies everyone. It’s looking like they probably don’t have a 100% accurate way of checking but possibly they may work out the total money raised by tickets sold or by passes/day tickets recorded on each run to see whether or not it is a profitable route.

Ticket machines will record cash / contactless payments by stop / journey / route. They will also record concessionary pass use, as reimbursement to operators by local councils is based on where people board the bus, so it's essential to record this, especially on any route that crosses a transport authority boundary. operators will also have their own ways of calculating a notional 'revenue per journey' for non cash transactions, e.g. returns / day / weekly tickets etc - if tickets are recorded right, company will know that day tickets are used on average (say) for 2 and a bit journeys, and allocate that revenue accordingly. Then there are tickets bought online, via mobile phones, season tickets paid for by the education authority, and so on.

It is still unknown which method operators use to obtain information on which part of a route is no longer profitable before the route is curtailed other than tickets being bought from that point of the route. It doesn’t take into account the people alighting there unless the bus operator has the system in place to record passengers getting off the bus.

As i said, you generally assume that the number of people travelling to and from each point will be similar - if you sell 100 return tickets and record 200 concession / weekly ticket journeys from point A towards town centre in a day, it's fair to assume that 300 people will travel back to point A at some time in the day unless there's specific factors why this may not be the case.

Just how you allocate cost and revenue (and therefore assess profitability) on bus routes / journeys can vary by operators - some are fairly broad brush and do it on a route basis, others will be more precise in terms of days of week, times of day, and even by journey. Although you can go too far with it all - it may be that the 0730 from town to suburb won't carry many passengers, the 0800 from suburb to town will carry a lot, but some of the revenue for return tickets taken on the 0800 journey needs to be allocated to the 1730 from town to suburb because that's when those return tickets will be presented.

But you need to do it in a way that doesn't count all of the revenue from the sale of a day / return ticket to the first bus of the day, and then 'double count' by allocating some of that revenue to journeys when the ticket is used later in the day.

there is software out there that can try and do some of this. it's quite alarming to think that I was involved with that sort of thing about 30 years ago when the bus company I was working for at the time finally went electronic...
 

stevenedin

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Ticket machines will record cash / contactless payments by stop / journey / route. They will also record concessionary pass use, as reimbursement to operators by local councils is based on where people board the bus, so it's essential to record this, especially on any route that crosses a transport authority boundary. operators will also have their own ways of calculating a notional 'revenue per journey' for non cash transactions, e.g. returns / day / weekly tickets etc - if tickets are recorded right, company will know that day tickets are used on average (say) for 2 and a bit journeys, and allocate that revenue accordingly. Then there are tickets bought online, via mobile phones, season tickets paid for by the education authority, and so on.



As i said, you generally assume that the number of people travelling to and from each point will be similar - if you sell 100 return tickets and record 200 concession / weekly ticket journeys from point A towards town centre in a day, it's fair to assume that 300 people will travel back to point A at some time in the day unless there's specific factors why this may not be the case.

Just how you allocate cost and revenue (and therefore assess profitability) on bus routes / journeys can vary by operators - some are fairly broad brush and do it on a route basis, others will be more precise in terms of days of week, times of day, and even by journey. Although you can go too far with it all - it may be that the 0730 from town to suburb won't carry many passengers, the 0800 from suburb to town will carry a lot, but some of the revenue for return tickets taken on the 0800 journey needs to be allocated to the 1730 from town to suburb because that's when those return tickets will be presented.

But you need to do it in a way that doesn't count all of the revenue from the sale of a day / return ticket to the first bus of the day, and then 'double count' by allocating some of that revenue to journeys when the ticket is used later in the day.

there is software out there that can try and do some of this. it's quite alarming to think that I was involved with that sort of thing about 30 years ago when the bus company I was working for at the time finally went electronic...
Thanks, really interesting and makes sense.
 

richw

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Some drivers record passes. Yesterday I went on 8 buses with a Merseytravel Saveaway on a rail ticket and I don't believe it was logged once. Whenever I have used Plusbus as well, that is rarely logged. The occasional driver does log it but extremely rarely.

MTickets I know a lot of Stagecoach drivers used to just click 'Pass use' rather than log the actual ticket used. With Stagecoach starting to use QR scanners for m-tickets though, I think that maybe the actual usage of these tickets will start to be logged better.
I know a lot of drivers add in their head how many mega riders etc and log them all at once when everyone is loaded especially if a long queue loading at a terminus etc
 

Llandudno

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I boarded an X17 bus at Matlock last week and asked for a single to Chesterfield, correctly charged £2 but the ticket issued stated travel to Barnsley and the bus in question was actually a Sheffield terminator!

Does this mean that additional Govt (Help for Households) support is being claimed as the single fare to Barnsley is presumably more expensive than a single to Chesterfield?
 

Cesarcollie

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I boarded an X17 bus at Matlock last week and asked for a single to Chesterfield, correctly charged £2 but the ticket issued stated travel to Barnsley and the bus in question was actually a Sheffield terminator!

Does this mean that additional Govt (Help for Households) support is being claimed as the single fare to Barnsley is presumably more expensive than a single to Chesterfield?
No. £2 fare cap money is a fixed payment offered and agreed in advance, so what is actually recorded makes no difference.
 

Simon75

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Some bus pass holders state the destination, when scanning their card. Not sure why
 

Roger1973

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Some bus pass holders state the destination, when scanning their card. Not sure why

Some operators do ask concessionary pass holders to state their destination, and some issue a zero value ticket.

Concessionary travel reimbursement is a can of worms that I am glad I don't have to deal with any more...
 

markymark2000

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I know a lot of drivers add in their head how many mega riders etc and log them all at once when everyone is loaded especially if a long queue loading at a terminus etc
On most of the buses that I got on, I was the only person getting on and I was watching to see if any journeys would be logged and I can say beyond all reasonable doubt, it wasn't logged. For when there is a group of people boarding though, I agree.

Some bus pass holders state the destination, when scanning their card. Not sure why
Some councils demand it for reimbursement. Thankfully a lot of councils are seeing sense and backing off from this now and just paying a flat fee instead as it speeds up boarding (so saves on costs), saves paper and reduces litter on buses (less little useless paper slips being issues).
 

Stan Drews

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On most of the buses that I got on, I was the only person getting on and I was watching to see if any journeys would be logged and I can say beyond all reasonable doubt, it wasn't logged. For when there is a group of people boarding though, I agree.


Some councils demand it for reimbursement. Thankfully a lot of councils are seeing sense and backing off from this now and just paying a flat fee instead as it speeds up boarding (so saves on costs), saves paper and reduces litter on buses (less little useless paper slips being issues).
Where ‘bus’ tickets are sold through the rail ticketing system, they normally receive a fixed amount per ticket sold, and aren’t reliant on the number of uses recorded on bus ticket machines.

The payment of a flat fee is fine, to help with speeding up boarding times, but only if the flat fee is at an appropriate amount!
 

richw

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The payment of a flat fee is fine, to help with speeding up boarding times, but only if the flat fee is at an appropriate amount!
Some local authorities aren’t even interested in numbers. The operator may well be though. I know of at least two local authorities who make the operators an annual offer to cover accepting concession passes.
To assist in budgeting local authority negotiates a figure at the start of the financial year to cover All concessions for the next 12 months. Sometimes the operator wins, some years the LA wins
 
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