McNulty Report

[Zoe]

It's all very well saying go and get another job but in many cases there just are not the jobs out there. Most companies these days won't employ people if they don't have pervious experience in that area and there are some guards that have done nothing else for many years so unfortunately there is not going to be another job they can just walk into.

 

[1V53]

Correct. And I am not 'getting whiney'. I am simply pointing out where we are at. Such comments are unneccessary.

It's not comparing like with like because we can't go to another train company and avoid the implications of this report.

If someone was to write a report decreeing that software test managers could be replaced by a grade paying much less would you just walk away or accept it? You see, you are able to use your experience and skills to walk away and go elsewhere. We can't do that.

Sure we can retrain etc, and that's what happens in life, but there is a finite number of jobs available and far more applying. We'd be at the back of the queue.

I agree this has happened to many people over the years and ultimately it might happen to me. However I find it slightly odd that one minute I am being trained to a high standard as a safety critical member of staff then a few years later am being told I'm really not needed and could be replaced by someone earning less than I did before I came here.

You can't compare a closed Market (national railway with skills that aren't instantly transferrable) to a free Market.

 

[j0hn0]

It's all very well saying go and get another job but in many cases there just are not the jobs out there. Most companies these days won't employ people if they don't have pervious experience in that area and there are some guards that have done nothing else for many years so unfortunately there is not going to be another job they can just walk into.

welcome to the private sector!! jeez, its as if you think that a job is a right, I won't go on to list how many times I have been made redundant and have had to pick myself off the floor.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Correct. And I am not 'getting whiney'. I am simply pointing out where we are at. Such comments are unneccessary.

It's not comparing like with like because we can't go to another train company and avoid the implications of this report.

If someone was to write a report decreeing that software test managers could be replaced by a grade paying much less would you just walk away or accept it? You see, you are able to use your experience and skills to walk away and go elsewhere. We can't do that.

Sure we can retrain etc, and that's what happens in life, but there is a finite number of jobs available and far more applying. We'd be at the back of the queue.

I agree this has happened to many people over the years and ultimately it might happen to me. However I find it slightly odd that one minute I am being trained to a high standard as a safety critical member of staff then a few years later am being told I'm really not needed and could be replaced by someone earning less than I did before I came here.

You can't compare a closed Market (national railway with skills that aren't instantly transferrable) to a free Market.

Of course you can compare. My skills are finite and jobs are just as scarce for me as they are for railway employees, my last 2 jobs were in Holland and Germany as there were none in England at the time. I live nowhere near my hometown and just have to take whatever comes, but no, you carry on thinking that you are precious in the public sector.

oh and by the way, they already do replace us with cheaper workers, IT'S CALLED OUTSOURCING!!!!! something that the rail industry can only do with call centres.

Perhaps now I could also say that the jobs in this country are being taken by people moving over from the outsourcing countries because they will work for less. I last advertised a job in my team a few months ago, 1% of applicants were English.

So actually, I am in a way worse position than you could ever imagine, pick yourself up and start making a case for you to stay where you are, make it so that they CANNOT get rid of you. It's about what you do now that will decide whether you are struck off or not. Throwing your hands in the air in a huff is not going to solve matters.

Please stop acting so hard done by, there are many more people worse off than we are. I know that’s not a solution to your problems, but honestly, this is the time that makes or breaks your employment.

Also though, not wanting to belittle a guards job, these are surely skills that can be transferred to another industry? Yes employers require experience, but what is the difference between a train and a bus, or a boat?

I know it must be hard to come to terms with, but really, everyone in the private sector has been suffering this for years, it's only now due to the public sector being involved that it actually makes headlines.

You do really seem about 20 years behind the private sector (that is not a slur, merely a comment on working practices)

 

[Zoe]

welcome to the private sector!! jeez, its as if you think that a job is a right, I won't go on to list how many times I have been made redundant and have had to pick myself off the floor.

You fail to explain how these guards that have been made redundant are going to get jobs that simply don't exist. Most job adverts state that pervious experience in the area is required.

 

[1V53]

I'm not going to waste my time replying, I'm trying to have an adult exchange but just get silly remarks about being in a huff and whining, thinking I am 'precious' (I don't) told I am speaking 'rubbish' just because I don't agree with you etc. There's no need for personal attacks on people all the time but if that is how you wish to debate then do it by yourself.

 

[jon0844]

I don't want to get involved with this argument, but surely there ARE jobs out there?

We're advertising for a sales job at the moment and have only had a handful of applications, and most are in no way related to the job at all. There's poor spelling and grammatical errors on nearly all of the CVs too!

Experience is important, but not vital if someone can show willing - but I fear we're going to struggle.

I don't believe for one second that every job requires experience, but it seems that people either have a nice job already, or they're being extremely choosy and holding out for a top job, on top money, in a great location with loads of perks.

Meanwhile, we advertise a job for £20k and nobody seems to care!

 

[j0hn0]

You fail to explain how these guards that have been made redundant are going to get jobs that simply don't exist. Most job adverts state that pervious experience in the area is required.

retrain?

Perhaps all the coal miners have sat on their hands since the pits closed?

Sorry but I don't agree that a guard is a highly skilled job, or indeed a very highly paid one, so I don't understand your issue with finding another job.

I think there are a few bruised egos on here right about now, buts that what redundancy does

 

[Zoe]

Sorry but I don't agree that a guard is a highly skilled job, or indeed a very highly paid one, so I don't understand your issue with finding another job.

Why do you think this? Guards do not just clip tickets, press buttons and wave flags. As for retraining most companies prefer to take people with experience rather than train new people.

 

[Ferret]

Oh goody, just what this thread needs - another ego competition.

Why the big beef about job security J0hn0? Because you got screwed over, you're now going to delight in somebody else having the same misfortune? Oh to be as bitter and twisted as that

 

[ANorthernGuard]

flamin' Eck at least Metroland had a reasonable argument (IMO wrong but just my opinion) and eventually came to realise its more than just about pounds and pence, this guy well lol

 

[Zoe]

If you can sell yourself

Easier said than done, if the guards have been in their job a long time they will never have had to go through the type of interview that most companies use now. Remember also that it's going to be yourself and many others applying for the job. Not everyone has that unique selling point that companies will be looking for.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I am a guard. I have been made redundant before so I know how it feels. I have also been studying for a degree with the Open University whilst working on the railways to ensure that if something like redundancy did happen again I would be better prepared for it and would have not only a qualification to be proud of but also something that will help me in the future.

If redundancy does indeed happen then all of us will have to be prepared as best as we can. Remember, no-one has been made redundant yet. These are only recommendations. We will have to wait and see what the government white paper says is proposed to happen.

My best advice to anyone who is worried about being made redundant and looking for work outside the railway without skills/qualifications is this. It hasn't happened yet. Remember that these proposals are quite possibly a few years away. We are not being made redundant overnight. Ask yourself: What else do I enjoy doing? What other areas of work would I like to go into? What salary am I looking to make? Then see what you need to do. Find out: What qualifications will i need? What would I need to study? What else can I do with what I already know and the qualifications I have?

I am not going to suggest this is going to be for everyone. It almost certainly won't be. But it is always better to be prepared than not at all. We all have time before we know anything, so let's use it!

 

[313103]

Johno i would would stack shelves for Tesco's providided i didnt have to make a £10,000 to £15,000 pay cut. The problem for me is that whilst i have all the customer service skills to keep most people happy, i lack the confidence in dealing with somebody elses money, unlike you mathmatics was never my strong point. The problem with companies like tesco is that they will only employ staff if you are multiskilled, so that means working on a till. I would do anything within the store apart from that.

Your analogy of living abroad seems a bit far stretched, maybe in the industry you work in which is probably a skilled market your talents would be required and you was rewarded as well. As an aside when you did live abroad did you get help in finding yourself accomodation, your work etc, what did locals think of you in the persective of say nicking their jobs? Was your partner and children (if you have any) disrupted in anyway? I have always wanted to work in another country but leaving school with no qualifications and only knowing the railways since leaving school would put me at a disadvantage to locals. It puts me at a disadvantage in my own country let alone another one.

 

[1V53]

Actually fella, I called it rubbish and then went on to explain why I thought it was rubbish. If you cannot respond to this then that is your issue.

If I use language that appears to enrage you, then perhaps you should stop posting on the internet looking for sympathy coz you won't get it from me.

Interesting that people who get all haughty on the use of language are in fact the ones who have no leg to stand on in terms of the argument.

I'm sorry, but to me you do look as if you think you are special, as if the whole world is against all the poor train guards. Believe me, I know how it feels and it ain't good posting on the interweb about it.

Alternatively, you could destroy your ego and perhaps take advice from someone who has experienced all of this many times and has found a solution to it.

There's no shame in agreeing with me, harsh as it may seem, but you really need to learn the facts of life outside the public sector bottomless pit that the rest of us have to work in.

The fact that you deflect any criticism of yourself by focussing on my language may suggest that you are in fact passed saving.

Give it a few weeks and then come back to this thread, you HAVE to accept that your job is NOT secure anymore, then perhaps there wouldn't be such a polemic debate on here.

Peace and love to you

Actually, 'fellah', I have worked in the public sector for most of my life, I have been on the railway for a few years. If you bother to read what I have contributed here you will see I declined to whine or get in a huff and simply added some points for discussion.

Now we can add 'patronising' to the list of rather undesirable attributes to your posting style.

I am more than capable of rationally making my case against yours 'fellah', but I really don't value your opinion after your last few posts so why waste my time?

Perhaps if you adopt a more quizzical and less insulting and patronising debating style you may get a more positive response.

It's easy to make provocative posts but let's get back to the beginning.... Where have I whined, huffed or indicated that I dont accept my job is secure? Indeed, did I not state above that nobody is indispensable?!

 

[GB]

Johno i would would stack shelves for Tesco's providided i didnt have to make a £10,000 to £15,000 pay cut. The problem for me is that whilst i have all the customer service skills to keep most people happy, i lack the confidence in dealing with somebody elses money, unlike you mathmatics was never my strong point. The problem with companies like tesco is that they will only employ staff if you are multiskilled, so that means working on a till. I would do anything within the store apart from that.
.

The computerised tills add up the total now so you wouldn't have to. As long as you can add change together you won't have a problem and If I could (and did) do it, Im sure you can!

 

[BestWestern]

A little food for thought on the subject of DOO.

On May 19th, a passenger train departing Newbury station was involved in a 'SASPAD' - Starting Against a Signal SPAD. The train was operating under DOO working. Having completed station duties, the Driver closed the doors and accelerated through the starting signal at the end of the platform, which was at Danger. The reason for the signal being at Danger was a non-stop express having been routed along the through lines. The junction merging this through line and the line on which the DOO train was running is just a short distance beyond the signal concerned. Thankfully on this occasion the train was brought to a stand. There are places and cicrumstances where the situation could have been different. The potential here was for a major accident. Had a Guard been involved in the dispatch procedure, there would have been another pair of eyes watching the signal, and a very good chance this SPAD would have been avoided. McNulty suggests that 'less human interface' during these procedures is a good thing. Does anybody else feel differently?!

 

[Metroland]

Or we could cite the Paisley Gilmour street accident of the 16 April 1979. A DMU started away from the platform signal well the guard gave right away, straight through a red signal (p31) and hit an EMU. 5 people were killed and 67 injured.

BR changed the rule, but ding-ding and away incidents still occur that why drivers are supposed to use DRA.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Happened to me this afternoon (can't say where obviously) but I got the tip off the platform guy, I just shook my head and pointed to the blank off indicator, the look of shock and horror (the usual) and plenty of apologies, if I was a CTM they would have roasted him over a log fire for that one, point being he made a mistake, I noticed...always a backup, DOO you don't really get that.

 

[Ferret]

I've had similar as well. The driver was actually out of his cab en route to the SPT, and was heard to utter words unfit for a family audience as I stood there pointing at the red signal on the end of the platform.

 

[BestWestern]

Judging by how agitated some Drivers get if they think the Guard was taking too long at stations, this sort of dangerous rushing with only one person involved in the process may well become much more common under DOO, particularly as all those delay attribution enquiries will be going the Drivers rather than the Guards.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think every guard has had a driver give the GUARD a ready to start signal, they are normally the ones on their last job lol, occasionally the guard can get his timings wrong (we are human) but if the Drivers getting impatient whats to stop him when its DOO??

 

[notadriver]

retrain?

Perhaps all the coal miners have sat on their hands since the pits closed?

Sorry but I don't agree that a guard is a highly skilled job, or indeed a very highly paid one, so I don't understand your issue with finding another job.

I think there are a few bruised egos on here right about now, buts that what redundancy does

Do you also believe Train drivers are also not highly skilled and that a bus or lorry driver could easily do their job too?

 

[BestWestern]

I think every guard has had a driver give the GUARD a ready to start signal, they are normally the ones on their last job lol, occasionally the guard can get his timings wrong (we are human) but if the Drivers getting impatient whats to stop him when its DOO??

I've had it, though thankfully only at a non-timetabled stop for the crew to change ends; the diagram stated a departure time but as soon as the Driver was keyed in he gave me a swift "buzz buzz" and roared off down the platform! (The starting signal was green however!)

The favourite situation for it happening though is on units with power doors but 'slam' crew doors - Guard closes the passenger doors, the interlock comes off, Driver sees the brake release, gives two and fires it up - but the Guard is actually still in the process of stepping back onboard and closing his crew door!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

retrain?

Perhaps all the coal miners have sat on their hands since the pits closed?

Sorry but I don't agree that a guard is a highly skilled job, or indeed a very highly paid one, so I don't understand your issue with finding another job.

I think there are a few bruised egos on here right about now, buts that what redundancy does

And, it would seem, at least one substantially over-inflated ego to balance things out. What you 'agree' about a job that other people do is of very little interest quite frankly, along with your catty attempt at offending a large number of those who have posted in this thread - fortunate then that one of our worthless skills is dealing with people who are considerably more talented in the insults department than your good self. Perhaps, if your high-flying jet set career allows the time, you might wish to lower yourself enough to watch a news broadcast, which may provide you with enough information to appreciate why many people would have concerns about finding alternative employment 'right about now'.

 

[68000]

A little food for thought on the subject of DOO.

On May 19th, a passenger train departing Newbury station was involved in a 'SASPAD' - Starting Against a Signal SPAD. The train was operating under DOO working. Having completed station duties, the Driver closed the doors and accelerated through the starting signal at the end of the platform, which was at Danger. The reason for the signal being at Danger was a non-stop express having been routed along the through lines. The junction merging this through line and the line on which the DOO train was running is just a short distance beyond the signal concerned. Thankfully on this occasion the train was brought to a stand. There are places and cicrumstances where the situation could have been different. The potential here was for a major accident. Had a Guard been involved in the dispatch procedure, there would have been another pair of eyes watching the signal, and a very good chance this SPAD would have been avoided. McNulty suggests that 'less human interface' during these procedures is a good thing. Does anybody else feel differently?!

The reason the train came to a stand was presumably TPWS stopped it therefore TPWS was doing it's job. I will grant you that the driver could have disabled TPWS and carried on regardless.

 

[dviner]

A little food for thought on the subject of DOO.

On May 19th, a passenger train departing Newbury station was involved in a 'SASPAD' - Starting Against a Signal SPAD. The train was operating under DOO working. Having completed station duties, the Driver closed the doors and accelerated through the starting signal at the end of the platform, which was at Danger. The reason for the signal being at Danger was a non-stop express having been routed along the through lines. The junction merging this through line and the line on which the DOO train was running is just a short distance beyond the signal concerned. Thankfully on this occasion the train was brought to a stand. There are places and cicrumstances where the situation could have been different. The potential here was for a major accident. Had a Guard been involved in the dispatch procedure, there would have been another pair of eyes watching the signal, and a very good chance this SPAD would have been avoided. McNulty suggests that 'less human interface' during these procedures is a good thing. Does anybody else feel differently?!

If we McNulty it to the max you could say that the incident wouldn't have happened - no human driver to "ignore" the signal at danger.

 

[cyclebytrain]

At the risk of pouring petrol onto the fire here... How is it that the RMT let a recommendation for DOO get into an official government report that decisions are likely to be based on.

Assuming that all the points made here are valid (and I'm neither a guard, nor have seen a formal risk assessment. So I can't comment) then surely the best time to make them was when the report was being prepared. Assuming they convinced the author (or one of his minions) then there'd be a paragraph along the lines of "DOO was examined as an option to reduce the wage bill, but was found to unacceptably compromise safety".

If I were guard, that's what would concern me most about the whole thing, either the union slipped up and missed it, or that they tried and failed. Either would worry me a lot.

 

[1V53]

At the risk of pouring petrol onto the fire here... How is it that the RMT let a recommendation for DOO get into an official government report that decisions are likely to be based on.

Assuming that all the points made here are valid (and I'm neither a guard, nor have seen a formal risk assessment. So I can't comment) then surely the best time to make them was when the report was being prepared. Assuming they convinced the author (or one of his minions) then there'd be a paragraph along the lines of "DOO was examined as an option to reduce the wage bill, but was found to unacceptably compromise safety".

If I were guard, that's what would concern me most about the whole thing, either the union slipped up and missed it, or that they tried and failed. Either would worry me a lot.

I think you are assuming that the RMT have any input into an official government report? I doubt they do!

 

[cyclebytrain]

I think you are assuming that the RMT have any input into an official government report? I doubt they do!

Personally I'd have had someone sit outside his office for weeks if needed with the appropriate briefing material personally (and mention it to the press that the report wasn't taking input that was being offered by the railway when there were problems getting in). A difficult process to be sure, but still easier than having to do something pretty similar with every TOC in the country later when they try and implement DOO following the report -always easier to stop te genie from getting out of the bottle than to put it back later.

 

[spacehopper]

Think its more a case of the union puts it side of the argument and nobody listens and others have already made the decision anyway.

Or not much this one union can do when members or rather hierarchy of another union can decide the fate of another grade.

Is it the TOC? Only have short franchises. Who do we lobby, who do we negotiate with? Meeting after meeting with head of TOC but it turns out that they are in collusion with the government. That TOC has already agreed to it and the government will use tax payers money to undermine any losses the TOC suffers due to industrial action and also fund a scab army. Using public money to undermine safety and break a strike.

So this is what we are up against. Back room deals have already been decided. Agreements and guarantees that have proved to be worthless.

 

[CarterUSM]

Or we could cite the Paisley Gilmour street accident of the 16 April 1979. A DMU started away from the platform signal well the guard gave right away, straight through a red signal (p31) and hit an EMU. 5 people were killed and 67 injured.

BR changed the rule, but ding-ding and away incidents still occur that why drivers are supposed to use DRA.

I don't know if you are saying it, and I apologise in advance as the term 'well the guard' is confusing me slightly, but I understand there was no requirement for the guard to check the starting signal at that time, the rulebook was subsequently changed so the guard did check it before giving the right away. I understand BR weren't happy with drivers not having sole responsibility for checking signals and that there had been other accidents over the years previously? Am I correct in thinking that this rule had been in place before then changed , and subsequently altered once more in light of this accident?