McNulty Report

[WestCoast]

s. The McNulty report suggests as have others (and done in Merseyside) combining ticket offices with other general newsagent/refreshment retail at smaller stations to provide extra revenue

The shop idea is not a bad one at all - apart from Merseyrail I've see it done in other countries in mainland Europe. There will be a little newsagent type shop that has a ticket clerk able to sell all tickets - some of the smaller stations would be otherwise unstaffed.

 

[Yew]

The shop idea is not a bad one at all - apart from Merseyrail I've see it done in other countries in mainland Europe. There will be a little newsagent type shop that has a ticket clerk able to sell all tickets - some of the smaller stations would be otherwise unstaffed.

So like if at worksop for example, Cut out the ticket office, and make it into a waiting room, Then give the guy who runs the cafe a Ticket machine? Or going the other way and turning the waiting room/ticket office, into a bit of a shop?

 

[Greenback]

Llanelli has a ticket office (AM only) and a small newsagent shop. The latter closes at varying times, maybe depending on the trade that day. I have always thought it might be sensible to combine the two. I would happily run it myself!

 

[WestCoast]

So like if at worksop for example, Cut out the ticket office, and make it into a waiting room, Then give the guy who runs the cafe a Ticket machine? Or going the other way and turning the waiting room/ticket office, into a bit of a shop?

Well, it could work like M to Go, which are convenience stores run by Merseyrail. The staff are employed by the TOC and are trained to sell all tickets and also serve as shop assistants.

In other countries, private shops (sometimes newsagents, but I've seen travel agents and even a bike shop) set up in/outside small stations and obtain licenses to sell tickets. They receive an issuing machine and training on tickets - with a commission incentive. It works similar to PayPoint - some UK bus companies (such as Nottingham City Transport) sell tickets through retailers.

It has benefits for the TOC it terms of revenue, benefits for stations which would otherwise be unmanned and without a ticket office, and provides business opportunities for small retailers.

 

[Mojo]

He got out the train and was running around on the track. The driver was unable to contact the signaller via NRN or his mobile, so he had to get out to perform train Protection. The man went chasing after the driver down the track!!! Other than putting Track circuit clips down there would have been no indication. If a train derailed it would also not automatically derail in such a way as to act like TC clips. what if the driver is incapacitated in this instance. remember trains can run with only a driver in DOO so if an RPI is not available there may be NO member of staff.


What about when SPT's (Signal Post Telephones) are not working too. This can happen and the signaller does not know about it

It is mandatory for trains operating DOO to be fitted with CSR, a much more advanced radio technology than NRN. GSM-R is also in the process of being rolled out too which again is even much more advanced and less likely to fail (as it did at Potters Bar). These technologies allow the signaller or controller to communicate over the train's PA system and the driver also has the benefit of making an emergency call which can be acted upon by the signaller to revert all signals in the area to danger.
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I was thinking about this, really they need to restructure the stations layout such that theres gates with a manned ticket office with a buzzable gate next to it, solves the problem of the ticket barriers needing to be manned and stations in need of a ticket office. If you have all stations on a line like this there will be no need for onboard ticket inspections. The McNulty report suggests as have others (and done in Merseyside) combining ticket offices with other general newsagent/refreshment retail at smaller stations to provide extra revenue.

I disagree with you that a person running a ticket office could also adequately monitor a gateline. In addition to providing worse customer service, someone in a ticket office isn't also going to be readily available to respond to fare evasion at the gateline either.

 

[Greenback]

Well, it could work like M to Go, which are convenience stores run by Merseyrail. The staff are employed by the TOC and are trained to sell all tickets and also serve as shop assistants.

In other countries, private shops (sometimes newsagents, but I've seen travel agents and even a bike shop) set up in/outside small stations and obtain licenses to sell tickets. They receive an issuing machine and training on tickets - with a commission incentive. It works similar to PayPoint - some UK bus companies (such as Nottingham City Transport) sell tickets through retailers.

It has benefits for the TOC it terms of revenue, benefits for stations which would otherwise be unmanned and without a ticket office, and provides business opportunities for small retailers.

I agree. It could assist in the establishment or survivla of othe rsmall businesses, as well as be good for the TOC and the traveller.

In some places the TOC might operate an M to Go type shop/office, in other locations a local business might be allowed to sell train tickets.

I disagree with you that a person running a ticket office could also adequately monitor a gateline. In addition to providing worse customer service, someone in a ticket office isn't also going to be readily available to respond to fare evasion at the gateline either.

It may be possible in a very quiet station, but nowadays these tend to have no barrier or ticket office anyway.

 

[WatcherZero]

Depends how you structure the gates and how many man the ticket office, it has to be better than a line of 6 G4S guys though?

And remember its always just a detterence, no methods ever going to catch 100% of offenders, even at the larger stations. However on the traditional Island platform stations with only one entrance this would be highly effective.

 

[jon0844]

It has benefits for the TOC it terms of revenue, benefits for stations which would otherwise be unmanned and without a ticket office, and provides business opportunities for small retailers.

This sounds like a decent, common sense, approach to things. I bet most quiet stations could justify a small shop, at very favourable rates, as many stations are still near to people who may visit the shop even when not travelling.

It would then improve the penalty fares schemes as everyone would have had a chance to buy a ticket - and deal with a REAL person, not a machine.

 

[Captain Chaos]

This sounds like a decent, common sense, approach to things. I bet most quiet stations could justify a small shop, at very favourable rates, as many stations are still near to people who may visit the shop even when not travelling.

It would then improve the penalty fares schemes as everyone would have had a chance to buy a ticket - and deal with a REAL person, not a machine.

It does come across as a sensible approach.

Personally I believe they should install ticket purchasing facilities at all Burger King/McDonald's outlets with particular focus on on-station outlets. The amount of times people used the excuse that they didn't have time to purchase a ticket yet had time to purchase and carry their Burger King to the train when I was an RPO was unreal.

 

[WestCoast]

It does come across as a sensible approach

I think this would be an excellent way of keeping costs down, while at the same time, providing more opportunities for ticket sales (not less - that just brings revenue down!).

I'd also like to see greater use of private Rail Appointed Travel Agents - perhaps they could be offered low rents in unused station buildings? In Shropshire, there are four stations that have travel agents operating the ticket office. The ticket office in Gobowden is operated, not by ATW, but by a local company called Severn-Dee Travel. Now they could also sell their own holidays and tours if they wanted to.

Unsurprisingly, this concept is one that has been in use on the continent (and further afield) for years. In smaller DB stations in Germany, you may find a "DB Agent" selling you a ticket. While it's usually a travel agent (I've also seen a few foreign exchange offices) - it could be anyone from a takeaway outlet to a bike shop!

DB have a partnership with all TUI travel offices (that's Thomson over here) to sell tickets. You can search for one on their website. They are on every high street - often very close to stations.

In Malaysia, shops selling train tickets close by are very common.

 

[jon0844]

We are often so arrogant and think we know better that we don't do loads of things they've sussed out years ago in mainland Europe!

I remember when I was about 10 (so that's over 25 years ago) looking out of the window in a flat in Sweden to see traffic lights that sat on red in every direction at night, so whoever approached the lights got green straight away.. car goes through, back to red. Pedestrians also got priority, assuming any where out at that time.

Of course, we had fixed phase lights working 24/7 here in most places, or some lights that just stuck on green in one direction, thus meaning people from a side road had to wait for them to go red.

And then we had the countdown timers on crossings.. another thing we recently made a big fuss of, as if it was a revolutionary idea!

It's only in the last year that I've seen any traffic lights here that went to red in all directions at night, and I bet the local highways authority was bigging it up as another revolutionary idea. Perhaps if it was 25 years ago it might have been!

Given how much money politicians spend on fact finding missions, it's a wonder that we are so far behind on so many things.

 

[WestCoast]

I agree. These costly and lengthy reports could be avoided if the UK just pinched some good ideas from other countries!

All too often, the UK spends time pondering things that are common sense, less money would spent on implementing such ideas straight away.:roll:

 

[jon0844]

And even when we do 'pinch' ideas, we change them as we STILL think we know better!

 

[Metroland]

The other day, just over a week ago ( 8 day)a passenger pulled the Pass com in an area not in reception to the signaller after he physically assaulted the Train Manager and catering staff.

He got out the train and was running around on the track. The driver was unable to contact the signaller via NRN or his mobile, so he had to get out to perform train Protection. The man went chasing after the driver down the track!!! Other than putting Track circuit clips down there would have been no indication. If a train derailed it would also not automatically derail in such a way as to act like TC clips. what if the driver is incapacitated in this instance. remember trains can run with only a driver in DOO so if an RPI is not available there may be NO member of staff.

What if passengers are getting assaulted? Or what if customers need road replacement services as the train has missed the last connection from an unstafeed station? What if a wheelchair needs to get on at an unstaffed station as has happened to me.

Disability Discrimination Act

What about when SPT's (Signal Post Telephones) are not working too. This can happen and the signaller does not know about it

As it's been pointed out, in DOO areas you have full cab secure radio so you don't get dead spots like that. More to the point, in many areas where guards operate they do so because there is Absolute block signalling, with no track circuits over many miles. Therefore track circuit clips are absolutely pointless (as they are in axle counter areas, say most of the WCML) and if there is no communication the procedure is to run down the track with detonators and flags, like something straight out of the Railway Children and based around practices from around that time.

I repeat I am for additional station on trains (where possible) to perform customer service and revenue protection duties. But the whole practice of guards is something straight from the 19th century and has been long since technically superseded by something better.

Ideally, you would have 15 control centres, communicating with every train via GSM radio. On train staff would know there whereabouts via GPS or triangulation in problem areas such as tunnels. All staff should be carrying around the rule book, full timetable, their position on the network, sectional appendixes and notebooks on PDAs.

On train staff, if they don't already, should be concentrating on duties like selling tickets, answer queries, clearing rubbish, helping with bags and wheelchair passengers, even selling food and drinks. They should not be in the back cab operating doors, nor should they be running off down the track with flags.

There is no reason why they cannot be recruited straight from a retail background, sent on a conversion course for a few weeks, with a grounding in the duties they need, including evacuation procedures. If something happens to the driver, there is nothing stopping them hitting a distress alarm on the GSM radio, assuming a DOO DSD alarm is not generated anyway. I wouldn't sack or reduce any current staffs rate of pay, but new recruits could be recruited for less, and have at least 1/3 of their pay made up of performance bonuses based around good customer service, revenue protection, keeping trains clear of rubbish, and selling tickets and other items.

It may take a long time to happen, but if it saves money and maintains safety it should happen.

 

[IanXC]

Given that most of Northern's stations are unstaffed - example Hull to Doncaster, only staffed stations are Hull (TPE), Brough (TPE), Goole and Thorne North (both p/t & Northern)and Doncaster(EC) ... None with barriers. The other 7 stations are unstaffed. If you encounter 2 staff on a train (and I can't recall this even on busy trains) the conducted has a non guard to assist in ticket selling. By removing one (or both!) from the train there will be no ticket revenue. None of the stations have TVMs and I look forward to barriers at Saltmarsh or Broomfleet!

Certainly is a regular occurrence on the Yorkshire Coast Line. Often commuting to work I've not even sat down, the doors aren't closed and and RPI is already waiting to check my ticket...

My suggestion is that overall revenue would be maximised by removing the RPI from each train and having them man new barriers at stations like Hull (easy), Beverley (potentially harder) and Bridlington (easy). Having the largest stations on the line with barriers would mean a guard on their own should have time to check those tickets and sell any others required. In addition it improves staff presence at stations to provide assistance and such.

 

[Ferret]

As it's been pointed out, in DOO areas you have full cab secure radio so you don't get dead spots like that. More to the point, in many areas where guards operate they do so because there is Absolute block signalling, with no track circuits over many miles. Therefore track circuit clips are absolutely pointless (as they are in axle counter areas, say most of the WCML) and if there is no communication the procedure is to run down the track with detonators and flags, like something straight out of the Railway Children and based around practices from around that time.

I repeat I am for additional station on trains (where possible) to perform customer service and revenue protection duties. But the whole practice of guards is something straight from the 19th century and has been long since technically superseded by something better.

Ideally, you would have 15 control centres, communicating with every train via GSM radio. On train staff would know there whereabouts via GPS or triangulation in problem areas such as tunnels. All staff should be carrying around the rule book, full timetable, their position on the network, sectional appendixes and notebooks on PDAs.

On train staff, if they don't already, should be concentrating on duties like selling tickets, answer queries, clearing rubbish, helping with bags and wheelchair passengers, even selling food and drinks. They should not be in the back cab operating doors, nor should they be running off down the track with flags.

There is no reason why they cannot be recruited straight from a retail background, sent on a conversion course for a few weeks, with a grounding in the duties they need, including evacuation procedures. If something happens to the driver, there is nothing stopping them hitting a distress alarm on the GSM radio, assuming a DOO DSD alarm is not generated anyway. I wouldn't sack or reduce any current staffs rate of pay, but new recruits could be recruited for less, and have at least 1/3 of their pay made up of performance bonuses based around good customer service, revenue protection, keeping trains clear of rubbish, and selling tickets and other items.

It may take a long time to happen, but if it saves money and maintains safety it should happen.

I'll remind you of this pile of tosh when there's a major incident involving a DOO train, and we'll see how much of a good idea you think it is then.

 

[Trainbuff]

And in all those cases the signalling equipment was damaged/signallers knew about problems and stopped traffic anyway. This is among many others.

In the case of DOO trains, DSD and passcom alarms are sent through to controlling boxes and must be acted on. On the railways you are never 'out there on your own', and to state DOO trains are unsafe is scaremongering. This is old technology now, with modern GSM phones, GPS, communications and so on, far more can be done.

This is unlike the roads, where if a lorry driver of a 44 tonne truck has a heart attack, the likelihood is he'll plough straight across the central reservation of a motorway and kill many others coming the other way in much lighter cars. Shall we ban all heavy goods vehicles?

I strongly suspect the Unions will use a great deal of strike and scaremongering tactics to persuade the less informed that most if not all change must be resisted, and make the railways out to be a special case - which they are not. The fact remains the railways must modernise to 21st century working practices, innovate, and become much more competitive and much less reliant on government if the are to be sustainable.

For example, there is absolutely no reason where staff such as station personnel and conductors cannot undergo college based conversion courses of a few weeks if those people have already been in a retail environment. Anyone, should be able to get sponsorship or self-fund these courses and the railway should be able to draw on a large, readily available pool of talent paid at an appropriate rate of pay.

Even the training for more skilled positions like signallers, drivers, controllers should be done by third parties using simulators and so on to at least get to 'provisional licence' states. These should be open to anyone that wants to take up the career, just like bus, HGV drivers and airline pilots.

The railways need to invest in their staff, and staff need to invest in themselves, like just about every other area of industry so they can not only side move through rail, but be useful to other industries and employers to.

We shouldn't have a situation where staff are left with 'no qualifications' so they cannot earn the appropriate rate of pay elsewhere or in the rail industry. I dare say the threats of sackings, demotion and the general nepotism that goes on is one reason for the appalling industrial relations but it has just failed to modernise working practices, meaning staff are often fearful and trapped. The railways are one of the few industries left where 'them and us' still goes on, and often staff are not felt to be in a partnership, rather they have to 'fight' for their rights. This can be as much the fault of the Unions, as it is the management.

Ok I understand now about the new radio systems. However, in my part of the world some sections can take a train 15 minutes to traverse. they are over 20 miles long, with few signals between. This is particularly true in Absolute Block (AB) areas, such that even if the signaller knows a train has derailed, (which of course if the driver is incapacitated he may not) Detonators could at least warn an oncoming train AND SAVE LIVES!

Years of underinvestment, and I am particularly talking of the far South West, have retained these long sections. It also mean that many stations are only staffed part time too, if at all. Short Platform lengths etc. there is a higher than average tendency to 'not buy a ticket' before boarding.

How will revenue be collected to support the service.

The next arguement will be made that the railway in that area is not taking revenue, based on ticket sales, with ideas to save money such as closing the line, making even more people redundant. Drivers included

 

[Metroland]

So signals every 20 miles apart, and blokes running down the track with flags is more safe than continuous radio coverage? Okay then.

And someone operating doors etc when they should be collecting revenue is better?

I was on a train the other day, and was trying to buy a ticket, yet the guard kept wandering off to open doors. In the end I had to argue my way through a ticket barrier and then be honest and buy a ticket.

I don't see how your arguments stack up at all, and is based on the understandable wish to retain jobs that are more remunerative but the practices serve little purpose.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

I'll remind you of this pile of tosh when there's a major incident involving a DOO train, and we'll see how much of a good idea you think it is then.

If you really understood railway operations and you got yourself into the 21st century you'd realise that the poster hasn't printed "a load of tosh".
Paddington, Liverpool Street, Euston, London Bridge, Victoria, King's Cross, Fenchurch Street and the entire Brighton to Bedford line all manage to operate quite safely as a DOO service. So what's the guy doing on the suburban trains out of Waterloo? Opening and closing the doors and making the occasional announcement. Nothing else. I've never seen one wander up and down the train flogging tickets, asking people to get their feet off the seats or telling people to stop using their mobiles or music machines in the quiet coach. They'd be better deployed doing just that and leaving the service to operate DOO as the trains are designed to be used. On radio equiped lines using TCB there's no need for a Guard in the conventional sense. What is required is a commercially trained customer care type who just deals with punters and leaves the operational side to the bloke who's trained - the driver.

 

[jon0844]

I've never seen RPIs telling people to take feet off seats either! Mind you, a senior revenue guy who was merely travelling from one station to another did have a real go at someone for holding the doors open last week!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I wish to god I could put some of you on a Guards course so you could actually find out how well trained we actually are, the ignorance towards guards is quite astonishing, some of you literally have no idea!

 

[Ferret]

The Barlow Boy - thanks for that one! I know nothing about railway operations? Oh dear, fetch me a doctor - my sides have just split.

ANG - agreed. Some of the tosh written on here is cringeworthy. I really am questioning why I bother with this forum; I'm fed up with reading ill-informed crap spouted by theory merchants with no concept of how the real world works. I do question the need for a non-commercial Guard on SWT, but I fully support the idea that there should be a Guard on *every* train who deals with revenue protection and customer service. We've been very lucky so far, but the day when a major incident involving a DOO train or trains occurs cannot be far away. When it does happen, the thoughts of Metroland and others will be fascinating reading.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The Barlow Boy - thanks for that one! I know nothing about railway operations? Oh dear, fetch me a doctor - my sides have just split.

ANG - agreed. Some of the tosh written on here is cringeworthy. I really am questioning why I bother with this forum; I'm fed up with reading ill-informed crap spouted by theory merchants with no concept of how the real world works. I do question the need for a non-commercial Guard on SWT, but I fully support the idea that there should be a Guard on *every* train who deals with revenue protection and customer service. We've been very lucky so far, but the day when a major incident involving a DOO train or trains occurs cannot be far away. When it does happen, the thoughts of Metroland and others will be fascinating reading.

They will just blame it on something else other than their Beloved DOO

 

[Ferret]

So signals every 20 miles apart, and blokes running down the track with flags is more safe than continuous radio coverage? Okay then.

And someone operating doors etc when they should be collecting revenue is better?

I was on a train the other day, and was trying to buy a ticket, yet the guard kept wandering off to open doors. In the end I had to argue my way through a ticket barrier and then be honest and buy a ticket.

I don't see how your arguments stack up at all, and is based on the understandable wish to retain jobs that are more remunerative but the practices serve little purpose.

Ah yes, because we all know how wonderfully reliable radio coverage can be. In an ideal world, nobody would ever have to walk a mile and a quarter with a red flag and dets but then we don't live in an ideal world. Placing all your eggs in one basket labelled 'technology' is a fundamentally flawed idea. Far better to have two fully trained professionals on board, one of whom drives, one of whom collects revenue and ensures the safety of the passengers.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ah yes, because we all know how wonderfully reliable radio coverage can be. In an ideal world, nobody would ever have to walk a mile and a quarter with a red flag and dets but then we don't live in an ideal world. Placing all your eggs in one basket labelled 'technology' is a fundamentally flawed idea. Far better to have two fully trained professionals on board, one of whom drives, one of whom collects revenue and ensures the safety of the passengers.

Aaahhhh Technology....Titanic anyone, as soon as people rely too much on technology disasters tend to follow, history is littered with them.

 

[dviner]

I wish to god I could put some of you on a Guards course so you could actually find out how well trained we actually are, the ignorance towards guards is quite astonishing, some of you literally have no idea!

Which generally comes back around to why so many people have a problem with the report - and likely to have with any report made about the industry that has been written by an "outsider" - it doesn't seem to care about the intricacies of the various roles.

However, it doesn't help that the general term "guard" can cover such a large range of activities.

 

[Zoe]

Aaahhhh Technology....Titanic anyone, as soon as people rely too much on technology disasters tend to follow, history is littered with them.

If Titanic had radar it would never have hit the iceberg. The fact was they were relying on humans to spot the iceberg and they were unable to in time. This shows how using technology is always going to be a superior option.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If Titanic had radar it would never have hit the iceberg. The fact was they were relying on humans to spot the iceberg and they were unable to in time. This shows how using technology is always going to be a superior option.

on the other side of that particular coin , they believed it to be unsinkable due to the advances in technology, what about the sub that ran aground last year (no loss of life) of the russian sub a few years ago, Chernobyl, etc etc. list is endless, Technology is great as an assistance, to rely solely on it is disastrous.
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Which generally comes back around to why so many people have a problem with the report - and likely to have with any report made about the industry that has been written by an "outsider" - it doesn't seem to care about the intricacies of the various roles.

However, it doesn't help that the general term "guard" can cover such a large range of activities.

I would like to find one word that did lol

 

[PR1Berske]

The Barlow Boy - thanks for that one! I know nothing about railway operations? Oh dear, fetch me a doctor - my sides have just split.

ANG - agreed. Some of the tosh written on here is cringeworthy. I really am questioning why I bother with this forum; I'm fed up with reading ill-informed crap spouted by theory merchants with no concept of how the real world works. I do question the need for a non-commercial Guard on SWT, but I fully support the idea that there should be a Guard on *every* train who deals with revenue protection and customer service. We've been very lucky so far, but the day when a major incident involving a DOO train or trains occurs cannot be far away. When it does happen, the thoughts of Metroland and others will be fascinating reading.

God willing, there has n't been a major accident on a DOO train on some of the countries most high-profile, high-use, large traffic number lines.

The points made above are valid. The Guard job description, to an outsider, would be door opener and occasional waver of flags. If a TOC assumed their staff would be walking the aisles taking tickets and collecting revenue, they'd be very much mistaken.

Britain's railways can't continue t be stifled by the same 19th century attitude that's blighted the attempts to modernise the Royal Mail/postal service.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if the industry and unions would be more open to change if existing staff were protected for pay, even if their duties are downgraded?

You could then have a plan to change things over a period of time, not overnight with people laid off or made to accept huge pay cuts to do a lesser job.

Anyone entering the industry now would know exactly where they stood from day one.