McGill's Buses - Renfrewshire & Inverclyde

[Spsf3232]

The McGill Area Directors was suppose to have a chat with Community council but that now been moved to next week, lets be fair No60 go via some of the most congested parts of the city and during the festival going down Lauriston place your faster walking..

That's Edinburgh, This thread is regarding McGills in the west

 

[overthewater]

This was suppose to have gone in the Midland bluebird thread. "What a mistake-a to make-a"

 

[Metal Mickey]

Deleted

 

[sannox]

The bus actually went exactly where the local community council wanted it to go and they worked with the local operators/SPT to design an appropriate route and timetable. However, like most similar scenarios, people simply don’t use the bus as much as they initially claim they will.

I have no doubt the community felt like Braehead was the place underserved given train links but there is paying £3 plus on the bus instead of driving to thousands of free parking spaces so fully agree on the second part!

I think the council papers suggested that a link to Erskine was an option and I think additional subsidy to change the 521 might have been a better use - it would have gone further and meets demand for High School for school pupils, local leisure centre and local shopping centre - although I still don't think it would ever work commercially.

I guess in any future franchised system you could extend the 23 bus to suit, and this would also meet demand on the Glasgow-Govan-Braehead-Renfrew corridor.

I disagree regarding desired destinations - the 514 provides a public transport link to Bishopton town centre and Braehead and to Paisley, Glasgow and Inverclyde through rail connections at Bishopton station. These are likely the most popular destinations. It's just that buses are generally an inferior good - demand falls as income rises, and with house prices starting around 250k in Dargavel, the pool of potential users is very minimal.

On the other hand, usage at Bishopton railway station has now surpassed pre-Covid figures, increasing at a far faster rate than other stations on the Inverclyde line. It's likely a lot of people in Dargavel have simply chosen the train over the bus, hence the end of the 514. To be honest, you're probably right that it was a waste of developer funding. At least they gave it a try. I wouldn't be surprised if the M7 went the same way - properties seem to be even more expensive in Maidenhill than in Dargavel.

I don't think I've ever considered Bishopton to have a 'town centre'. It isn't that big - most of the houses in Dargavel are still within 10-15 minutes walk of the station and you can probably walk end to end through Bishopton in 20 minutes. Can't see enough people making a bus journey within Bishopton to add up commercially especially one that involves an infrequent bus on a non clockface timetable and paying a fare for the privilege when you can walk it - or drive to the small retail parades.

Like you say the train takes most of the key destinations where people want to go. This limits bus need and makes it hard to make anything commercial stack up. Bishopton has never had that much of a reliable commercial bus service going back years and it's for a reason.

I get the 'inferior good' and hard to serve new housing on edges of towns for a variety of reasons, but I'm more positive about bus use but it needs to be the right service for the area and not just trying to ensure it's just covered by a bus.

 

[Stan Drews]

I have no doubt the community felt like Braehead was the place underserved given train links but there is paying £3 plus on the bus instead of driving to thousands of free parking spaces so fully agree on the second part!

I think the council papers suggested that a link to Erskine was an option and I think additional subsidy to change the 521 might have been a better use - it would have gone further and meets demand for High School for school pupils, local leisure centre and local shopping centre - although I still don't think it would ever work commercially.

I guess in any future franchised system you could extend the 23 bus to suit, and this would also meet demand on the Glasgow-Govan-Braehead-Renfrew corridor.



I don't think I've ever considered Bishopton to have a 'town centre'. It isn't that big - most of the houses in Dargavel are still within 10-15 minutes walk of the station and you can probably walk end to end through Bishopton in 20 minutes. Can't see enough people making a bus journey within Bishopton to add up commercially especially one that involves an infrequent bus on a non clockface timetable and paying a fare for the privilege when you can walk it - or drive to the small retail parades.

Like you say the train takes most of the key destinations where people want to go. This limits bus need and makes it hard to make anything commercial stack up. Bishopton has never had that much of a reliable commercial bus service going back years and it's for a reason.

I get the 'inferior good' and hard to serve new housing on edges of towns for a variety of reasons, but I'm more positive about bus use but it needs to be the right service for the area and not just trying to ensure it's just covered by a bus.

The Community Council were adamant that they did not want another link to Erskine, either as an extension of the 521 or via a different route, as Braehead was the missing link not available via the train. This also offered easy connections with the frequent express buses to/from Glasgow city centre.

 

[sannox]

The Community Council were adamant that they did not want another link to Erskine, either as an extension of the 521 or via a different route, as Braehead was the missing link not available via the train. This also offered easy connections with the frequent express buses to/from Glasgow city centre.

Interesting knowledge. Seems a strong desire for Braehead there! I've not been there in ages, last time I was there it didn't seem to be what it was in the early 2000s.

 

[Stan Drews]

Interesting knowledge. Seems a strong desire for Braehead there! I've not been there in ages, last time I was there it didn't seem to be what it was in the early 2000s.

It is well served by buses so acts as a very useful hub, regardless of its retail offering!

 

[Arriva Fan]

Braehead is like a Bus Station with a Shopping Centre.

Could the X22 be changed to Braehead? It's more attractive than Clydebank.

 

[318266]

Braehead is like a Bus Station with a Shopping Centre.

Could the X22 be changed to Braehead? It's more attractive than Clydebank.

Given that any service to Inverclyde whose ultimate destination is not Glasgow seems to die by a death by a thousand cuts - sure, why not, it's probably going to quietly disappear soon enough anyway, as everyone moves into their cars. Not many would use that hypothetical either.

The sad reality is that, once you push someone into a car, it's very hard to push them out of it as a result of the spent cost fallacy. Dargavel is built, at least based upon the house prices, for a demographic highly unlikely to travel by bus in the first place, so in reality anything serving it would have to be so intensive to become attractive in its own right. It would take a massive shift in the cost of having a car (massive enough to hit the wallets of Dargavel residents anyway) comparative to the cost of public transport for modal shift to happen en masse, for example, the proposed congestion charge of Glasgow City could do it on a small scale, but it would take free-at-point-of-use public transport across all modes (as some people genuinely see buses as "beneath them") in order for it to actually start to become visible in the motorways of this country.

 

[overthewater]

I guess in any future franchised system you could extend the 23 bus to suit, and this would also meet demand on the Glasgow-Govan-Braehead-Renfrew corridor.

I can see 901 or 906 being diverted off the motorway to cover that section if any future franchised system appeared, mind you it doesnt help old bit and new bit seem cut off in the middle by the rail line.

Braehead is like a Bus Station with a Shopping Centre.

Could the X22 be changed to Braehead? It's more attractive than Clydebank.

X22 is paid for by SPT and provide a link to that hospital

The Community Council were adamant that they did not want another link to Erskine, either as an extension of the 521 or via a different route, as Braehead was the missing link not available via the train. This also offered easy connections with the frequent express buses to/from Glasgow city centre.

It would seem the community council did what they wanted and not what the local people wanted. Not the first time that has happened.

 

[Metal Mickey]

I guess in any future franchised system you could extend the 23 bus to suit, and this would also meet demand on the Glasgow-Govan-Braehead-Renfrew corridor.

I remember alternate journeys on the 23 extending from Erskine to Bishopton back in Clydeside days.

 

[Stan Drews]

I can see 901 or 906 being diverted off the motorway to cover that section if any future franchised system appeared, mind you it doesnt help old bit and new bit seem cut off in the middle by the rail line.

That would kill the 901/906, …but you’re right some muppet would probably do that under a franchising system to tick a box!!

 

[318266]

That would kill the 901/906, …but you’re right some muppet would probably do that under a franchising system to tick a box!!

Which would in turn create more demand for the railways who are much better suited to handle the Inverclyde to Glasgow corridor, on a matter of pure capacity, and therefore reduce the needless competition between transport modes, reallocating the money to enhance local last-mile services elsewhere.

 

[CMBS]

Braehead is like a Bus Station with a Shopping Centre.

Could the X22 be changed to Braehead? It's more attractive than Clydebank.

Was on the X22 a few weeks ago and it was fairly well used even from Port Glasgow, with the usual E200 allocation being about half full by Bishopton and essentially all passengers going to Clydebank.

I've not tried the 514 myself but if it's being cancelled then probably not a viable option.

 

[markymark2000]

Which would in turn create more demand for the railways who are much better suited to handle the Inverclyde to Glasgow corridor, on a matter of pure capacity, and therefore reduce the needless competition between transport modes,

All sounds good in theory, but it falls apart when it comes to reality.

Firstly ask yourself, if the railways are so much better suited to this corridor, why does this bus exist? The difference in the fares is slim (and the train is cheaper if you have a railcard), the journey time is longer, and and train is on a turn up an go frequency. Literally every single checkbox is ticked in the railways favour for cost and time. So why is it that people still use the bus? These sorts of motorway express routes have been struggling more and more across the country, and so the fact that McGills are keeping it going, says an awful lot that passengers clearly don't want to use the train. Your seeming solution or cut the bus and just force people to use the train will end one way. With reduced public transport numbers on the corridor, and with more cars making the journey. I guess if that is the solution that you were after, then great.

reallocating the money to enhance local last-mile services elsewhere.

Reallocating what money? The 901/906 currently generates a profit so in a franchising world, would putting money back into the pot to fund other routes. If you kill off the 901/906, the profits can't be reinvested into other services so you will have less money in the pot for other things. Not only have you now got less money in the pot, but you are also now wanting to put the resources into high subsidiy last mile services which are hardly used. What is your end goal here? Bankrupt the local transport authority? Because that is what happens when you constantly reduce income but increase costs.

 

[sannox]

Firstly ask yourself, if the railways are so much better suited to this corridor, why does this bus exist? The difference in the fares is slim (and the train is cheaper if you have a railcard), the journey time is longer, and and train is on a turn up an go frequency. Literally every single checkbox is ticked in the railways favour for cost and time. So why is it that people still use the bus?

Concessions are free on the bus for u22 and over 60s. The train is £8.50 for adults, £4 for OAPs off peak return so a decent saving. Sure train takes 20mins or so less from Port Glasgow but the extra time might be worth it.

 

[Clydeflyer]

Granted, just personal opinion, but if the way to commute from Inverclyde to Glasgow was a local bus going to a station and then taking a train to Glasgow Central, and the same on reverse, then I'd likely would not have moved to Inverclyde or if I had I'd have been commuting by car. Why? Because of the simple reason that if the motorway has an issue then there are diversions (and lots of them) to get round the issue. A train has no such flexibility as was evidenced by the closure of Central after the fire. 901/906, Lanarkshire expresses (First and JMB), Stagecoach Fife and Ayrshire expresses and all other inter city coach/commuter stuff works in my opinion because the drivers have the flexibility to switch to diversionary routes so they always get there. The longest delays I ever had commuting were on trains stuck on lines with no workaround.

 

[318266]

All sounds good in theory, but it falls apart when it comes to reality.

Firstly ask yourself, if the railways are so much better suited to this corridor, why does this bus exist? The difference in the fares is slim (and the train is cheaper if you have a railcard), the journey time is longer, and and train is on a turn up an go frequency. Literally every single checkbox is ticked in the railways favour for cost and time. So why is it that people still use the bus? These sorts of motorway express routes have been struggling more and more across the country, and so the fact that McGills are keeping it going, says an awful lot that passengers clearly don't want to use the train. Your seeming solution or cut the bus and just force people to use the train will end one way. With reduced public transport numbers on the corridor, and with more cars making the journey. I guess if that is the solution that you were after, then great.

Firstly, the vast majority of passengers travel free of charge thanks to the Scottish Government's expansive free travel scheme. When the cost of administrating this is taken into account, I'd wager the service does not make anywhere near a profit. Indeed, this is the primary reason why motorway express services, whether bus or coach, thrive in Scotland in comparison to England.

Secondly, the train operates at a half-hourly frequency on each branch west of Port Glasgow - decidedly not turn up and go by any measurement, unlike the bus which is arguably turn up and go from Kilblain St eastbound, and especially at Greenock Bus Station itself as it is timetable to have a bus stand there more often than not.

Reallocating what money? The 901/906 currently generates a profit so in a franchising world, would putting money back into the pot to fund other routes. If you kill off the 901/906, the profits can't be reinvested into other services so you will have less money in the pot for other things. Not only have you now got less money in the pot, but you are also now wanting to put the resources into high subsidiy last mile services which are hardly used. What is your end goal here? Bankrupt the local transport authority? Because that is what happens when you constantly reduce income but increase costs.

My wish would be to create an attractive integrated public transport network which is also, to the maximum reasonable extent when balanced with attractivity for modal shift, fiscally responsible. A good way to do this is remove effectively competing routes that, when all public subsidy is considered, are a loss (such as the ClydeFlyer).

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

Concessions are free on the bus for u22 and over 60s. The train is £8.50 for adults, £4 for OAPs off peak return so a decent saving. Sure train takes 20mins or so less from Port Glasgow but the extra time might be worth it

The train is £5.65 return for OAPs from Port Glasgow it's only 33.3% in the Strathclyde Concessionary Scheme now, There's no Peak or off Peak fares on Scotrail anymore for anyone.

 

[sannox]

There's no Peak or off Peak fares on Scotrail anymore for anyone.

There is peak time restrictions on concessions though and you can only use them off peak. Hence the buses carrying good loads as no time restrictions.

Correct on the fares, £4 is the cap but not here.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

There is peak time restrictions on concessions though and you can only use them off peak. Hence the buses carrying good loads as no time restrictions.

Correct on the fares, £4 is the cap but not here.

There is no peak time restrictions on concessions in Scotland

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

There is no peak time restrictions on concessions in Scotland

Only if travelling to/from Girvan, Maybole or Barrhill according to ScotRail: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/railcards/national-entitlement-card

• Fare reductions are not available for travel on weekdays between 06:00 and 09:00, or between 16:30 and 18:00.
• However, if you are travelling to/ from Maybole, Girvan and Barrhill on direct services, there is no evening time restriction.
• There are no time restrictions on a weekend or on national public holidays.

 

[Highland050261]

2426 has been painted in the same livery as 2236.

 

[gingerheid]

Which would in turn create more demand for the railways who are much better suited to handle the Inverclyde to Glasgow corridor, on a matter of pure capacity, and therefore reduce the needless competition between transport modes, reallocating the money to enhance local last-mile services elsewhere.

One defect the routes suffer from that is very much of the current system is the glaring omission of Glasgow Airport, which is often seen as beneficial for the owner of the operator's other commercial interests. I'd love to see the 901, 904 and 906 serve the airport.

In an ideal world perhaps there'd be better bus connections from train stations and joint ticketing and less of a need for it, but the world is far from ideal and I'm too cynical to see franchising making appreciably better. In addition, it has benefits that would survive even an idealistic implementation of franchising:

- If you're paying for a ticket the bus is cheaper for certain journeys.
- It also offers a better frequency on certain parts of the route that off-sets the time penalty
- It stops in a more convenient location in Greenock, and offers links to Port Glasgow (which is where the useful shops are increasingly moving to) that aren't all available by train.
- It is perceived to be safer from antisocial behaviour

 

[markymark2000]

which is often seen as beneficial for the owner of the operator's other commercial interests.

Is this the taxi company or other interests?

One defect the routes suffer from that is very much of the current system is the glaring omission of Glasgow Airport

I'd argue that diverting the 901/906 would deter people from using them for the longer journeys. I think the Airport link has potential but would be better away from the 901/906. It is rather funny the amount of buses that go past the Airport but do not serve it. Not just McGills but Stagecoach as well. Are Glasgow another airport that rinses bus operators dry though and so it's just not viable for buses to serve there without a lot of passengers?

 

[CMBS]

One defect the routes suffer from that is very much of the current system is the glaring omission of Glasgow Airport, which is often seen as beneficial for the owner of the operator's other commercial interests. I'd love to see the 901, 904 and 906 serve the airport.

In an ideal world perhaps there'd be better bus connections from train stations and joint ticketing and less of a need for it, but the world is far from ideal and I'm too cynical to see franchising making appreciably better. In addition, it has benefits that would survive even an idealistic implementation of franchising:

- If you're paying for a ticket the bus is cheaper for certain journeys.
- It also offers a better frequency on certain parts of the route that off-sets the time penalty
- It stops in a more convenient location in Greenock, and offers links to Port Glasgow (which is where the useful shops are increasingly moving to) that aren't all available by train.
- It is perceived to be safer from antisocial behaviour

Adding Glasgow Airport alongside Braehead would make the service less attractive and attract more passengers onto the train so the more possible solution would be to make Braehead a half hourly service for this case and vice versa for the Airport

Main problem is that there is quite a lot of demand between Braehead and the City Centre so maybe an extra service could be added between there

 

[gingerheid]

Is this the taxi company

Yes

Are Glasgow another airport that rinses bus operators dry though and so it's just not viable for buses to serve there without a lot of passengers?

Yes In this case only First would be allowed to operate a service that included Glasgow (and I wouldn't want to try and operate the service without the Glasgow passengers).
My typical journey is East Anglia to Ayrshire. With the 757 being a shockingly poor service to get off a plane to and the 500 being a very expensive way of going the wrong direction (and with the ECML having more connections than I can be bothered with) I just drive

 

[overthewater]

Before McGills come along The 901 used to go into the Airport but I don't remember it being that busy. The company that had the Citylink contract wasn't the most understanding with passengers either. Also Arriva used to have 66 every 10mins and that was a fresh air special, im sure it was them who diverted the 66 into shortroods. Arriva also tried 600 East Kilbride - Glasgow airport.

I do believe there is some sort of demand but you would need a bus at 3am for the early flights.

 

[sannox]

In this case only First would be allowed to operate a service that included Glasgow (and I wouldn't want to try and operate the service without the Glasgow passengers).

Are you sure on that? Airports don't usually have such restrictions after the Luton Airport court case.

You can for example book the limited Citylink services between the airport and the City Centre?

 

[markymark2000]

Airports don't usually have such restrictions after the Luton Airport court case.

I don't know in Glasgows case but Stansted and Bristol certainly do their upmost to restrict competition with their 'concessions' or in Bristols case they refuse access without battling through a lot of bureaucracy and providing a lot of commercially sensitive data to their public transport manager (who just so happens to also dictate the airports contracted buses. 100% not a conflict of interest there).