May 2023 changes

[Failed Unit]

For those interested, here are the weekday GN 700 diagrams from May.

700/0

5C04 0600 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS
2C04 0627 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C17 0826 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T20 1010 London King's Cross – Ely
1T27 1153 Ely – London King's Cross
2C32 1327 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C45 1526 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1P84 1712 London King's Cross – Peterborough
5P84 1841 Peterborough – Peterborough Spital Sidings ECS
5J63 1931 Peterborough Spital Sidings – Peterborough ECS
9J63 1955 Peterborough – Horsham
9W90 2311 Horsham – Peterborough
5W90 0230 Peterborough – Peterborough NeneCS

5P83 0528 Peterborough Nene CS – Peterborough ECS
1P83 0605 Peterborough – London King's Cross
2C10 0757 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C23 0957 Cambridge – London King's Cross
2R26 1157 London King's Cross – Letchworth
2R35 1328 Letchworth – London King's Cross
1T38 1442 London King's Cross – Kings Lynn
1T49 1642 Kings Lynn – London King's Cross
2R54 1857 London King's Cross – Letchworth
5E83 1954 Letchworth – Hornsey Depot ECS

3T94 0540 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS
1T94 0602 London King's Cross – Kings Lynn
1T15 0812 Kings Lynn – London King's Cross
2C20 1027 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C33 1226 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T36 1412 London King's Cross – Ely
1T43 1553 Ely – London King's Cross
2C48 1727 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C61 1926 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T64 2109 London King's Cross – Ely
1T71 2248 Ely – London King's Cross
1C76 0032 London King's Cross – Cambridge
5C76 0148 Cambridge – Cambridge Sidings North ECS

5C05 0516 Cambridge Sidings North – Cambridge ECS
2C05 0526 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T08 0712 London King's Cross – Ely
5T08 0838 Ely – Cambridge Sidings South ECS
5T98 0915 Cambridge Sidings S – Cambridge Sidings N ECS
5T92 1556 Cambridge Sidings North – Cambridge ECS
2T92 1619 Cambridge – Ely
1T47 1648 Ely – London King's Cross
2C52 1827 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C65 2024 Cambridge – London King's Cross
5E27 2212 London King's Cross – Hornsey Depot ECS

700/1

5P87 0651 Peterborough Spital Sidings – Peterborough ECS
1P87 0705 Peterborough – London King's Cross
5E52 0836 London King's Cross – Hornsey Depot ECS
3P88 1742 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS
1P88 1812 London King's Cross - Peterborough
5P88 1933 Peterborough – Peterborough Nene CS ECS

Everything else is 387.

This represents a reduction in 700/0 diagrams from 8 to 4, along with an extra 700/1 diagram (which nominally could be regarded as coming off the Littlehampton service).

The number of 387 diagrams increases to 31.

Four up peak services from Kings Lynn and three down services to Kings Lynn are 12-car inwards of Cambridge. The diagrams have been designed so that all 12-car services only work in the peak direction, with attachments and detachments at King’s Cross or ECS to/from Hornsey.

The only Peterborough peak 12-car is the 700/1 diagram above. The other services are 700/0 or 8/387.

For those number crunchers, eliminating the remaining 700 working would require 11x 387s, taking the total requirement to 42. As can be seen, this cannot be met with the current fleet of 29+6+3. To make GN all-387 with this timetable would require something like 46 units. I guess it would be just about manageable if 717s were used somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

A bit more detail on the May GN service:

King's Cross to Cambridge / Letchworth services:
8/387
0527, 0557, 0657, 0727, 0827, 0857, 0927, 0957, 1057, 1127, 1227, 1257, 1357, 1427, 1457, 1527, 1557, 1627, 1657, 1757, 1927, 1957, 2027, 2057, 2127, 2227, 2327, 0036, 0107

8/700
0627, 0757, 1027, 1157, 1327, 1827, 1857

Of the early morning services,
1C00 0502 King's Cross to Cambridge changes to 8/387
1P02 0512 King's Cross to Peterborough changes to 8/387 and departs earlier
1C02 0532 King's Cross to Cambridge changes from 8/700 to 12/700
1P04 0547 King's Cross to Peterborough changes from 4/387 to 12/700
1T94 0602 King's Cross to Cambridge changes from 12/700 to 8/387 and is extended to Kings Lynn
1C74 0002 King's Cross to Cambridge departs later (formerly 2342) and calls additionally at Stevenage, Hitchin, Baldock, Ashwell & Morden, Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton.
9W90 2311 Horsham to Peterborough changes from 12/700 to 8/700.

More will be added tomorrow!

That is good news, only service to avoid for me that I use frequently is the 1727 ex-Kings Cross.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Why's it a 221? I thought it was a 390 after the knitting went up on the Blackpool North line.

Previous posts (I think in another thread) suggest it will be a cl390, hence the need to run non-stop to Preston and it cannot couple to a train from Holyhead at Crewe.

 

[Minstral25]

For those interested, here are the weekday GN 700 diagrams from May.

700/0

5C04 0600 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS
2C04 0627 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C17 0826 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T20 1010 London King's Cross – Ely
1T27 1153 Ely – London King's Cross
2C32 1327 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C45 1526 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1P84 1712 London King's Cross – Peterborough
5P84 1841 Peterborough – Peterborough Spital Sidings ECS
5J63 1931 Peterborough Spital Sidings – Peterborough ECS
9J63 1955 Peterborough – Horsham
9W90 2311 Horsham – Peterborough
5W90 0230 Peterborough – Peterborough NeneCS

5P83 0528 Peterborough Nene CS – Peterborough ECS
1P83 0605 Peterborough – London King's Cross
2C10 0757 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C23 0957 Cambridge – London King's Cross
2R26 1157 London King's Cross – Letchworth
2R35 1328 Letchworth – London King's Cross
1T38 1442 London King's Cross – Kings Lynn
1T49 1642 Kings Lynn – London King's Cross
2R54 1857 London King's Cross – Letchworth
5E83 1954 Letchworth – Hornsey Depot ECS

3T94 0540 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS
1T94 0602 London King's Cross – Kings Lynn
1T15 0812 Kings Lynn – London King's Cross
2C20 1027 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C33 1226 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T36 1412 London King's Cross – Ely
1T43 1553 Ely – London King's Cross
2C48 1727 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C61 1926 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T64 2109 London King's Cross – Ely
1T71 2248 Ely – London King's Cross
1C76 0032 London King's Cross – Cambridge
5C76 0148 Cambridge – Cambridge Sidings North ECS

5C05 0516 Cambridge Sidings North – Cambridge ECS
2C05 0526 Cambridge – London King's Cross
1T08 0712 London King's Cross – Ely
5T08 0838 Ely – Cambridge Sidings South ECS
5T98 0915 Cambridge Sidings S – Cambridge Sidings N ECS
5T92 1556 Cambridge Sidings North – Cambridge ECS
2T92 1619 Cambridge – Ely
1T47 1648 Ely – London King's Cross
2C52 1827 London King's Cross – Cambridge
2C65 2024 Cambridge – London King's Cross
5E27 2212 London King's Cross – Hornsey Depot ECS

700/1

5P87 0651 Peterborough Spital Sidings – Peterborough ECS
1P87 0705 Peterborough – London King's Cross
5E52 0836 London King's Cross – Hornsey Depot ECS
3P88 1742 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS
1P88 1812 London King's Cross - Peterborough
5P88 1933 Peterborough – Peterborough Nene CS ECS

Everything else is 387.

This represents a reduction in 700/0 diagrams from 8 to 4, along with an extra 700/1 diagram (which nominally could be regarded as coming off the Littlehampton service).

The number of 387 diagrams increases to 31.

Four up peak services from Kings Lynn and three down services to Kings Lynn are 12-car inwards of Cambridge. The diagrams have been designed so that all 12-car services only work in the peak direction, with attachments and detachments at King’s Cross or ECS to/from Hornsey.

The only Peterborough peak 12-car is the 700/1 diagram above. The other services are 700/0 or 8/387.

For those number crunchers, eliminating the remaining 700 working would require 11x 387s, taking the total requirement to 42. As can be seen, this cannot be met with the current fleet of 29+6+3. To make GN all-387 with this timetable would require something like 46 units. I guess it would be just about manageable if 717s were used somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

A bit more detail on the May GN service:

King's Cross to Cambridge / Letchworth services:
8/387
0527, 0557, 0657, 0727, 0827, 0857, 0927, 0957, 1057, 1127, 1227, 1257, 1357, 1427, 1457, 1527, 1557, 1627, 1657, 1757, 1927, 1957, 2027, 2057, 2127, 2227, 2327, 0036, 0107

8/700
0627, 0757, 1027, 1157, 1327, 1827, 1857

Of the early morning services,
1C00 0502 King's Cross to Cambridge changes to 8/387
1P02 0512 King's Cross to Peterborough changes to 8/387 and departs earlier
1C02 0532 King's Cross to Cambridge changes from 8/700 to 12/700
1P04 0547 King's Cross to Peterborough changes from 4/387 to 12/700
1T94 0602 King's Cross to Cambridge changes from 12/700 to 8/387 and is extended to Kings Lynn
1C74 0002 King's Cross to Cambridge departs later (formerly 2342) and calls additionally at Stevenage, Hitchin, Baldock, Ashwell & Morden, Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton.
9W90 2311 Horsham to Peterborough changes from 12/700 to 8/700.

More will be added tomorrow!

Interesting information - are more of the 9J's (Peterborough to Horsham services) moving over to be 8-car services then. As trying to follow RTT it seems that the 8-car late night service runs a full 9J pattern for next day?

 

[bramling]

Interesting information - are more of the 9J's (Peterborough to Horsham services) moving over to be 8-car services then. As trying to follow RTT it seems that the 8-car late night service runs a full 9J pattern for next day?

Not as I recall. The 8-car which does the evening Horsham and back would form one of the three fast Peterborough to KX peak services the next morning.

 

[JonathanH]

As trying to follow RTT it seems that the 8-car late night service runs a full 9J pattern for next day?

How so? There appears to be one 700/0 into Nene CS and one out of Nene CS in the diagrams above.

5J11 0624 Peterboro Nene C.H.S to Peterborough / 9J11 0654 Peterborough to Horsham is presumably formed off the fifth diagram listed which is a 12-car into Nene CS.

 

[Markdvdman]

Online Timetable booklets for the Valleys to Cardiff (TFW) will not be published until end of June due to metro work. However, I do not understand WHY as they are generic anyway! Also they have published nothing to say of any notable changes at least as yet!

 

[Minstral25]

How so? There appears to be one 700/0 into Nene CS and one out of Nene CS in the diagrams above.

5J11 0624 Peterboro Nene C.H.S to Peterborough / 9J11 0654 Peterborough to Horsham is presumably formed off the fifth diagram listed which is a 12-car into Nene CS.

After May timetable change RTT shows only two sets going onto Nene Sidings for stabling, one is 5W50 from the 8 car set above and the other is a GN set (presumably 387's). The morning departure is 5J11 which forms a set for all day on 9J's. So if only a 8 car goes on for stabling that means the set for the following day has to be 8 car too.

It may be that other sets still need to have their stabling worked out, but all the other 9J sets from PBO come off Spital sidings, Hornsey, Three Bridges or Horsham Sidings.

Noticeable that the East Grinstead unit ends up via London Bridge and Horsham to Peterborough for stabling - how complex these diagrams get

 

[lione87023]

Previous posts (I think in another thread) suggest it will be a cl390, hence the need to run non-stop to Preston and it cannot couple to a train from Holyhead at Crewe.

It's still 221 operated as it forms 1D83 0902 EUS-HHD.

 

[JonathanH]

After May timetable change RTT shows only two sets going onto Nene Sidings for stabling, one is 5W50 from the 8 car set above and the other is a GN set (presumably 387's). The morning departure is 5J11 which forms a set for all day on 9J's. So if only a 8 car goes on for stabling that means the set for the following day has to be 8 car too.

It is 5P88 in the fifth diagram posted above that is 12-700/1 that comes back out as 5J11. 5W90, which is the evening Horsham 700/0 comes out on 5P83.

All in 'Bramling''s post above.

 

[bramling]

After May timetable change RTT shows only two sets going onto Nene Sidings for stabling, one is 5W50 from the 8 car set above and the other is a GN set (presumably 387's). The morning departure is 5J11 which forms a set for all day on 9J's. So if only a 8 car goes on for stabling that means the set for the following day has to be 8 car too.

This isn’t quite right.

5W90 is a 700/0 and goes out on 5P83
5P88 is a 700/1 and goes out on 5J11

The fly in the ointment is that 1P88 and thus 5P88 are changing from 12/387 to a 700/1.

Reading between the lines, it would appear there is a desire to reduce the number of 700/0 diagrams (on the GN side these reduce from 8 to 4), with the balance being filled by 387. The way things have been done essentially frees up 5x 387 from the peak Peterborough services. One assumes that the extra 700/1 nominally comes from the Littlehampton service which is no longer going to be 700 worked. It has been suggested that some of these 700 services may revert to 387 in the future, though this doesn’t seem to be definite.

I suspect a spin-off from all this might well be that 700/0 substitutions in place of 700/1 (or in place of cancelled outright due to no good trains) may increase.

 

[Minstral25]

This isn’t quite right.

5W90 is a 700/0 and goes out on 5P83
5P88 is a 700/1 and goes out on 5J11

The fly in the ointment is that 1P88 and thus 5P88 are changing from 12/387 to a 700/1.

Reading between the lines, it would appear there is a desire to reduce the number of 700/0 diagrams (on the GN side these reduce from 8 to 4), with the balance being filled by 387. The way things have been done essentially frees up 5x 387 from the peak Peterborough services. One assumes that the extra 700/1 nominally comes from the Littlehampton service which is no longer going to be 700 worked. It has been suggested that some of these 700 services may revert to 387 in the future, though this doesn’t seem to be definite.

I suspect a spin-off from all this might well be that 700/0 substitutions in place of 700/1 (or in place of cancelled outright due to no good trains) may increase.

Yes I get it now. I was assuming that all 700's would be Thameslink diagrams but as you said these are GN diagrams operated by 700's - confusing but makes sense now. Thanks for clearing up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2023 ==

It is 5P88 in the fifth diagram posted above that is 12-700/1 that comes back out as 5J11. 5W90, which is the evening Horsham 700/0 comes out on 5P83.

All in 'Bramling''s post above.

Yep! as above

 

[Some guy]

It's still 221 operated as it forms 1D83 0902 EUS-HHD.

Correct it’s booked as a 10 car which explains the Kirkham and Poulton calls being dropped

 

[David Turner]

The new Network Rail timetable from May to December 2023 is now available for download from

Electronic national rail timetable - Network Rail

David Turner, Adelaide, South Australia.

 

[splashoutradio]

Online Timetable booklets for the Valleys to Cardiff (TFW) will not be published until end of June due to metro work. However, I do not understand WHY as they are generic anyway! Also they have published nothing to say of any notable changes at least as yet!

To be fair to TfW, they've done better than they have done previously. Not too long ago, it was often months after the start date before timetables were published.

With regards to the Valley Lines timetable. Hopefully the attached PDF can be of some use. It's 'long-term plan' so is subject to the usual bustitution and alterations that come with engineering works.

 

[snookertam]

From the May timetable change the 05:40 Blackpool North to London Euston is booked for a 10-car 221. Consequently it no longer calls at Poulton le Fylde (PFY) or Kirkham and Wesham (KKM) , which I think is a shame.

This means that both PFY and KKM have sadly lost their direct trains to/from London.

Didn't the 06:00 Preston to Euston used to start from Lancaster, instead of Blackpool North several years ago? Seeing it will soon be none stop Blackpool to Preston, I'd have thought it would have been more useful coming from Lancaster.

Do those units not have selective door control?

 

[jhy44]

is there any sort of single document/list which lists the main changes occurring nationwide, categorized by TOC?
If not, might someone who knows them well create one?

 

[Gaz55]

Has there been any word on what stock is going to run the new hourly Leeds to Chester Sunday service?

 

[Mag_seven]

is there any sort of single document/list which lists the main changes occurring nationwide, categorized by TOC?
If not, might someone who knows them well create one?

A lot of the popular railway magazines will have articles summarising the situation.

 

[D6130]

Has there been any word on what stock is going to run the new hourly Leeds to Chester Sunday service?

Nothing definite, but presumably it will be either 3 car or 2 x 2 car 195s, as on the current weekday services.

 

[Gaz55]

Thanks for the info. It will be very welcome on the Calderdale Line after 3 years with only 1tp on Sundays.

 

[D6130]

It will be very welcome on the Calderdale Line after 3 years with only 1tp on Sundays.

It certainly will....especially with most Sunday trains being full & standing due to TPE's current miserable excuse for a service between Leeds and Manchester.

 

[dk1]

Do those units not have selective door control?

I don’t think the Voyager fleet does as don’t the drivers control the doors?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do those units not have selective door control?

No Voyagers do not.

 

[JRT]

Has there been any word on what stock is going to run the new hourly Leeds to Chester Sunday service?

Will be interworked with the current Leeds – Man Vic service, so the same stock as currently utilised

 

[voyagerdude220]

No Voyagers do not.

I believe there's a special work around done for when 2x221 stop at Flint, presumably involving locking part of the rear set out of use.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I believe there's a special work around done for when 2x221 stop at Flint, presumably involving locking part of the rear set out of use.

Certain stations have work around where you can manually lock doors out. Like Pairs of voyagers calling at Totnes but it needs time in the schedule to do so.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Certain stations have work around where you can manually lock doors out. Like Pairs of voyagers calling at Totnes but it needs time in the schedule to do so.

Why would additional time be needed? Any time I have seen it (not on XC) doors are locked out before the train arrives - with appropriate announcements - and unlocked after departure.

 

[Llandudno]

It certainly will....especially with most Sunday trains being full & standing due to TPE's current miserable excuse for a service between Leeds and Manchester.

It will also ease some of the overcrowding on TfWs Chester-Manchester service.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why would additional time be needed? Any time I have seen it (not on XC) doors are locked out before the train arrives - with appropriate announcements - and unlocked after departure.

Because at some point someone has to lock or unlock those doors manually unless they remain locked for the entire journey

 

[JW4]

It seems Poulton-le-Fylde & Kirkham and Wesham will be served by Avanti with a once on Sunday evenings service Blackpool to Preston with a 221 calling at both stations. So that’s how Avanti are still technically serving them, one evening train on a Sunday per week.
At Kirkham and Wesham, the Northern services to Preston that stop either side of the Avanti train will be a 18:07 and 18:44 with the Avanti departing at 18:38.
At Poulton-le-Fylde it is preceded by an 18:24 northern departure 4 minutes earlier that does not call at Kirkham and Wesham and a 18:43 departure calling at KKW is 15 minutes later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

It will probably be near-empty, especially at that price.
(£8.10 from PFY to PRE tho interestingly the same price from PFY-KKW, £5.50, as a northern ticket as well as £5.90 KKM-PRE, same as a Northern ticket)