May 2023 changes

[jon0844]

And wifi (well, on most - until GN get around to (re-)fitting wifi to the ex-c2c 387s). And a much nicer internal ambience. And actual carriages with doors between them, so you don't hear noise carrying down the train from three carriages away.

I'd imagine that those of us living north of Cambridge are not going to be happy about seeing 700s show up again. Certainly I'm not.

It does seem the wrong way round. 387s are great for the express trains, and less so for the stopping services that hoover up large numbers of people at multiple stops (so some people will then have little to no chance of getting a seat OR moving freely through the train to spread out and make best use of the room).

Now if they do 700s in the peaks and 387s off peak then that's okay, but even people who prefer the ambience of a 387 and a table won't really care for having the aisles crush loaded and it being hard to get off, or go to the toilet.

The 700s were built for a purpose and if people think the passenger numbers have fallen so they're not needed, they clearly don't travel very often.

 

[A0]

And I don't really see why Brockenhurst shouldn't come back either. There really seems to be little or no advantage to skipping it, when XC managed to call there from (IIRC) the late 80s (and certainly by the mid-90s) to 2019. It provides access to the New Forest, and, perhaps even more critically, access to Lymington and the Isle of Wight with just one change. Looking at the timings, there has been no speed-up between Bournemouth and Southampton, meaning that presumably the 2 mins needed for the Brockenhurst stop will just be spent waiting at a signal somewhere.

(I made the same point recently on another thread, but IIRC there was no reply; apologies if this point was discussed earlier and I missed it).

Bit in bold - given that pre Covid Lymington Pier station never saw more than 150k users / year, I'm not sure it's a particularly well used route to the Isle of Wight.

It's probably faster to alight at Southampton and get the Red Jet to Cowes. The Quay Connect bus takes 10 mins from Southampton Station - Red Jet terminal and Red Jet to Cowes takes ~ 30 mins.

Whereas it takes 40 mins to get from Southampton - Lymington Pier and the crossing takes another 40 mins - so an extra 80 minutes to get to the Island.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bit in bold - given that pre Covid Lymington Pier station never saw more than 150k users / year, I'm not sure it's a particularly well used route to the Isle of Wight.

It's probably faster to alight at Southampton and get the Red Jet to Cowes. The Quay Connect bus takes 10 mins from Southampton Station - Red Jet terminal and Red Jet to Cowes takes ~ 30 mins.

Whereas it takes 40 mins to get from Southampton - Lymington Pier and the crossing takes another 40 mins - so an extra 80 minutes to get to the Island.

Lymington to Yarmouth is mostly a car ferry that happens to take foot passengers. Pompey to Ryde is the main foot passenger one, though the Red Jet is also relevant. Yarmouth isn't a very useful destination on foot (though onward travel is available by bus).

Ideally XC should serve Brockenhurst because it takes cars out of the national park, though a change at Southampton Ctl or Bournemouth isn't painful so it's not disastrous that it doesn't.

 

[bramling]

It does seem the wrong way round. 387s are great for the express trains, and less so for the stopping services that hoover up large numbers of people at multiple stops (so some people will then have little to no chance of getting a seat OR moving freely through the train to spread out and make best use of the room).

Now if they do 700s in the peaks and 387s off peak then that's okay, but even people who prefer the ambience of a 387 and a table won't really care for having the aisles crush loaded and it being hard to get off, or go to the toilet.

The 700s were built for a purpose and if people think the passenger numbers have fallen so they're not needed, they clearly don't travel very often.

Are the stopping services *that* crowded nowadays? With the exception of events and disruption I’ve never been on one which has been anything approaching crush loading since it has been all 8-car. However I nowadays travel at a much narrower range of timings compared to what I once did, so may not be experiencing the full picture.

 

[jon0844]

Are the stopping services *that* crowded nowadays? With the exception of events and disruption I’ve never been on one which has been anything approaching crush loading since it has been all 8-car. However I nowadays travel at a much narrower range of timings compared to what I once did, so may not be experiencing the full picture.

They're not crush loaded unless there's been a cancellation or an event somewhere else. 387s have already been covering for broken 700s on and off for a while, and they're cosy but not unbearable.

The WelwynOaks services are getting more popular, but they do get very busy by New Barnet going into London.

 

[A0]

Lymington to Yarmouth is mostly a car ferry that happens to take foot passengers. Pompey to Ryde is the main foot passenger one, though the Red Jet is also relevant. Yarmouth isn't a very useful destination on foot (though onward travel is available by bus).

Ideally XC should serve Brockenhurst because it takes cars out of the national park, though a change at Southampton Ctl or Bournemouth isn't painful so it's not disastrous that it doesn't.

Bit in bold - utter rubbish. There's precisely no evidence to support that outrageous claim. You're not seriously suggesting that when people are faced with a single change at either Winchester or Southampton that they'll abandon their decision to go by train and take the car instead ?

That kind of hyperbole gives these boards a bad name.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bit in bold - utter rubbish. There's precisely no evidence to support that outrageous claim. You're not seriously suggesting that when people are faced with a single change at either Winchester or Southampton that they'll abandon their decision to go by train and take the car instead ?

It certainly reduces the likelihood, yes, particularly as a lot of the market to do this will be families. Connections in this country are poorly coordinated and unreliable, and so people overridingly prefer direct trains.

You can't of course have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, but this is like Avanti not serving Oxenholme because people can change to TPE, on the rare occasion TPE can be bothered to operate a train.

 

[nw1]

Bit in bold - given that pre Covid Lymington Pier station never saw more than 150k users / year, I'm not sure it's a particularly well used route to the Isle of Wight.

It's probably faster to alight at Southampton and get the Red Jet to Cowes. The Quay Connect bus takes 10 mins from Southampton Station - Red Jet terminal and Red Jet to Cowes takes ~ 30 mins.

Whereas it takes 40 mins to get from Southampton - Lymington Pier and the crossing takes another 40 mins - so an extra 80 minutes to get to the Island.

Maybe, but I stand by my point that the Brockenhurst XC stop does have potential use (whether by New Forest, Lymington or IoW residents or visitors) and removing it has no significant advantage that I can see - therefore surely, on balance, it should be reinstated.

Also it was there from 1988-ish to 2019, including during the busiest traffic years of the SWML, i.e. 2004-19. If they could stop XC trains there during the high-traffic years of the 2010s, why not now?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

Bit in bold - utter rubbish. There's precisely no evidence to support that outrageous claim. You're not seriously suggesting that when people are faced with a single change at either Winchester or Southampton that they'll abandon their decision to go by train and take the car instead ?

That kind of hyperbole gives these boards a bad name.

Again, irrespective of whether it's true or not (and it could be partly true, certainly the old pattern of an almost clockface 15-min service from Brockenhurst to Southampton Mon-Sat was very nice), the stop has no significant disadvantage. XC trains are not so busy west of Southampton, and there is no apparent timing advantage to skipping Brockenhurst. The stop was there for 30-odd years. So why remove it?

 

[A0]

It certainly reduces the likelihood, yes, particularly as a lot of the market to do this will be families. Connections in this country are poorly coordinated and unreliable, and so people overridingly prefer direct trains.

You can't of course have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, but this is like Avanti not serving Oxenholme because people can change to TPE, on the rare occasion TPE can be bothered to operate a train.

And when they reach Brockenhurst, which really isn't the main destination in the National Park they're stranded. It's a nonsensical argument.

There are only about 8 XC trains a day through Brockenhurst and unless you're able to join at Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New St, Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington, Banbury, Oxford or Reading, you'll already be having to make a change to get to the train. (I've not included Basingstoke, Winchester or Southampton stations because they get a much more frequent SWR service to the New Forest to begin with).

Once again, it's a hyperbolic argument that it will somehow improve the number of passengers using it.

 

[Failed Unit]

They're not crush loaded unless there's been a cancellation or an event somewhere else. 387s have already been covering for broken 700s on and off for a while, and they're cosy but not unbearable.

The WelwynOaks services are getting more popular, but they do get very busy by New Barnet going into London.

I suspect they will be similar timings to the Covid period when most southbound services in the peak were 387s. The 700s normally have a few standees south of Potters Bar but nothing uncomfortable. The 387s have more seats so will probably balance out.

However who knows what happens should more people return to rail.

I tend to use the Sevenoaks service more now. Faster journey end to end on most journeys I do still use the Moorgates for Piccadilly / Victoria and Northern line tube. The moorgates are still very quiet in comparison to pre Covid. I suspect the Cambridge- London looks busier now is the loss of the Baldock service. So really that is now 2 trains into 1.

 

[A0]

Also it was there from 1988-ish to 2019, including during the busiest traffic years of the SWML, i.e. 2004-19. If they could stop XC trains there during the high-traffic years of the 2010s, why not now?

There has probably been some analysis which shows that the majority of users were simply travelling to Southampton, Winchester or Bournemouth - all of which get a better SWR service.

So overcrowding XC services with local passengers isn't a good thing. Add in the XC service is coming from Manchester and Birmingham - if it's running late when it hits Basingstoke, it's then got to be pathed around the SWR services - losing the Brockenhurst stop potentially makes that easier as it can be pathed in front of an SWR stopper from Southampton without having to delay it.

 

[nw1]

It certainly reduces the likelihood, yes, particularly as a lot of the market to do this will be families. Connections in this country are poorly coordinated and unreliable, and so people overridingly prefer direct trains.

You can't of course have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, but this is like Avanti not serving Oxenholme because people can change to TPE, on the rare occasion TPE can be bothered to operate a train.

And Avanti certainly should serve Oxenholme, at least with alternate trains (e.g. a Glasgow fast/Glasgow slower alternating 2-hour pattern). London to Windermere really should only need a single change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

There has probably been some analysis which shows that the majority of users were simply travelling to Southampton, Winchester or Bournemouth - all of which get a better SWR service.

Except the XC provided a 4tph service from Brockenhurst northwards, at xx00, 15, 33 and 45. Without it there's now a half-hour wait, ok not the end of the world but even still, no significant advantage making it worthwhile.

So overcrowding XC services with local passengers isn't a good thing.

But (at least IMX, and most of my experience has been in the summer months at the weekend) XC services are not crowded west of Southampton. The crowded section is north of Southampton and particularly north of Reading.

Add in the XC service is coming from Manchester and Birmingham - if it's running late when it hits Basingstoke, it's then got to be pathed around the SWR services - losing the Brockenhurst stop potentially makes that easier as it can be pathed in front of an SWR stopper from Southampton without having to delay it.

It's all a bit wishy-washy though, possible vague advantages which fail to outweigh the disadvantages of removing a long-standing stop of 30 years.

And how did they manage to stop there during the higher-passenger, higher-traffic era of the 00s and 10s?

 

[A0]

And Avanti certainly should serve Oxenholme, at least with alternate trains (e.g. a Glasgow fast/Glasgow slower alternating 2-hour pattern). London to Windermere really should only need a single change.

Erm - change at Lancaster or Preston onto the Manchester Airport to Windermere service ? That's one change from London. And Lancaster or Preston are far better, from a passenger perspective, to make such an interchange with more facilities.

Except the XC provided a 4tph service from Brockenhurst northwards, at xx00, 15, 33 and 45. Without it there's now a half-hour wait, ok not the end of the world but even still, no significant advantage making it worthwhile.

But (at least IMX, and most of my experience has been in the summer months at the weekend) XC services are not crowded west of Southampton. The crowded section is north of Southampton and particularly north of Reading.

Does Brockenhurst warrant 4 tph ? Brockenhurst population is about 3,500 - Northampton's almost 60 times bigger yet gets 2 tph to London and 2 tph to Birmingham.

It's all a bit wishy-washy though, possible vague advantages which fail to outweigh the disadvantages of removing a long-standing stop of 30 years.

And how did they manage to stop there during the higher-passenger, higher-traffic era of the 00s and 10s?

It's not "wishy washy" - it's just that your complaining that Brockenhurst has lost its fast Southampton and Bournemouth train presumably because you liked riding in a "Inter City" type train rather than slumming it on a "commuter" EMU - in reality it was getting massively over-served for the size of place it is.

 

[nw1]

Erm - change at Lancaster or Preston onto the Manchester Airport to Windermere service ? That's one change from London. And Lancaster or Preston are far better, from a passenger perspective, to make such an interchange with more facilities.

Is that regular though? Does it provide good connections? (If so, then apologies - last time I was up there the Windermere service was largely Oxenholme shuttles with occasional irregular extensions further south).

It's not "wishy washy" - it's just that your complaining that Brockenhurst has lost its fast Southampton and Bournemouth train presumably because you liked riding in a "Inter City" type train rather than slumming it on a "commuter" EMU - in reality it was getting massively over-served for the size of place it is.

No that's not actually true, if anything I prefer the 444s to the Voyagers, but I really don't care what sort of stock runs the route as long as it's frequent and reliable.

But I did like the turn-up-and-go nature of the service. And as I said, removal of long-standing services warrant a really strong, convincing argument to do so. Not just on the railways, but in other spheres of life too - there have been too many examples of this in the past three or four years - but I won't go there. Some vague "if it's running late, it might help it pick up time" doesn't cut it. If pathing constraints or turnaround times meant it could not stop there, then fair point. But in this case, I still cannot see a convincing argument for the removal of a service provided since 1988-ish.

And it's not just my personal needs, but other people too. What about the Lymington resident wishing to reach Reading, Oxford or Birmingham, and could formerly do so by changing just once? Or the West Wight holidaymaker? (If Lymington was so unimportant as an access point to the IoW, then why is the ferry still running?) OK it might not be vast numbers, but there will be a certain number of people wanting to do this. And they could do it from the late 80s to 2019, why not now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Windermere from further south is three times a day. And Avanti do stop.

 

[nw1]

Windermere from further south is three times a day. And Avanti do stop.

Ah ok, I read your comment "Avanti not serving Oxenholme" and assumed you were commenting on the lack of stops on Avanti services. Many apologies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah ok, I read your comment "Avanti not serving Oxenholme" and assumed you were commenting on the lack of stops on Avanti services. Many apologies.

No, I was suggesting that withdrawing the stop would be silly, and thus that XC should reinstate Brockenhurst.

 

[A0]

But I did like the turn-up-and-go nature of the service. And as I said, removal of long-standing services warrant a really strong, convincing argument to do so. Not just on the railways, but in other spheres of life too - there have been too many examples of this in the past three or four years - but I won't go there. Some vague "if it's running late, it might help it pick up time" doesn't cut it. If pathing constraints or turnaround times meant it could not stop there, then fair point. But in this case, I still cannot see a convincing argument for the removal of a service provided since 1988-ish.

3 tph is still a vastly better service than many bigger places get and they cope - no reason Brockenhurst can't.

And it's not just my personal needs, but other people too. What about the Lymington resident wishing to reach Reading, Oxford or Birmingham, and could formerly do so by changing just once? Or the West Wight holidaymaker? (If Lymington was so unimportant as an access point to the IoW, then why is the ferry still running?) OK it might not be vast numbers, but there will be a certain number of people wanting to do this. And they could do it from the late 80s to 2019, why not now?

I suspect very few Lymington residents were making such journeys - but even then two changes isn't exactly unreasonable. Most places along the south coast are looking at 2 changes to reach most places in the Midlands - the only exceptions being those on Thameslink heading to the East Midlands or those on HS1 heading to the East Mids.

I've already pointed out that for IoW holidaymakers it's *much* quicker to go via the Fastcat at Southampton - even allowing for the bus ride from Cowes - Yarmouth. I don't know how well you know the IoW - I know it reasonably well and there's not much at Yarmouth apart from the Castle and the Ferry Terminal - so arriving at Yarmouth isn't really that convenient for a foot passenger. Cowes Fastjet or Ryde Pierhead or Ryde Esplanade (Hovercraft) are the most foot passenger friendly, with Cowes Red Funnel being probably the next best.

There's not much on the west of the Island - most of the holiday accommodation is on the south-east for example.

 

[nw1]

No, I was suggesting that withdrawing the stop would be silly, and thus that XC should reinstate Brockenhurst.

Fair point, and I completely agree!

 

[geordieblue]

It's probably faster to alight at Southampton and get the Red Jet to Cowes. The Quay Connect bus takes 10 mins from Southampton Station - Red Jet terminal and Red Jet to Cowes takes ~ 30 mins.

Whereas it takes 40 mins to get from Southampton - Lymington Pier and the crossing takes another 40 mins - so an extra 80 minutes to get to the Island.

I mean, 40 extra minutes surely since the crossings both take 40 minutes?

 

[A0]

I mean, 40 extra minutes surely since the crossings both take 40 minutes?

Sorry - yes, quite correct, didn't mean to double count.

 

[GN Boy]

I suspect they will be similar timings to the Covid period when most southbound services in the peak were 387s. The 700s normally have a few standees south of Potters Bar but nothing uncomfortable. The 387s have more seats so will probably balance out.

However who knows what happens should more people return to rail.

I tend to use the Sevenoaks service more now. Faster journey end to end on most journeys I do still use the Moorgates for Piccadilly / Victoria and Northern line tube. The moorgates are still very quiet in comparison to pre Covid. I suspect the Cambridge- London looks busier now is the loss of the Baldock service. So really that is now 2 trains into 1.

From May, I believe that the Sevenoaks will finally be routed in front of the Moorgate in the Up direction from Welwyn. This could possibly make the Sevenoaks services somewhat busier, IMHO.

Great to see that these new services are proving to be popular.

 

[nw1]

3 tph is still a vastly better service than many bigger places get and they cope - no reason Brockenhurst can't.



I suspect very few Lymington residents were making such journeys - but even then two changes isn't exactly unreasonable. Most places along the south coast are looking at 2 changes to reach most places in the Midlands - the only exceptions being those on Thameslink heading to the East Midlands or those on HS1 heading to the East Mids.

I've already pointed out that for IoW holidaymakers it's *much* quicker to go via the Fastcat at Southampton - even allowing for the bus ride from Cowes - Yarmouth. I don't know how well you know the IoW - I know it reasonably well and there's not much at Yarmouth apart from the Castle and the Ferry Terminal - so arriving at Yarmouth isn't really that convenient for a foot passenger. Cowes Fastjet or Ryde Pierhead or Ryde Esplanade (Hovercraft) are the most foot passenger friendly, with Cowes Red Funnel being probably the next best.

There's not much on the west of the Island - most of the holiday accommodation is on the south-east for example.

Again I see what you're saying but my principal objection is the removal of a service which had been provided for around 30 years with little tangible benefit to removing it and which was seen as useful by passengers - maybe not vast quantities of passengers but "enough" to make the stop (which has little or no cost and in fact is likely to generate more income than it costs, at a guess) worthwhile. But maybe best just to agree to disagree on this.

 

[J-2739]

Again I see what you're saying but my principal objection is the removal of a service which had been provided for around 30 years with little tangible benefit to removing it and which was seen as useful by passengers - maybe not vast quantities of passengers but "enough" to make the stop (which has little or no cost and in fact is likely to generate more income than it costs, at a guess) worthwhile. But maybe best just to agree to disagree on this.

It seems to have become a recent theme of some to use mental gymnastics to justify the removal of things that worked for a long time.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The erstwhile weekly morning and evening services between Hellifield and Clitheroe on Sundays are being withdrawn, which is pretty inconvenient for me. I realise this service has no hope of making anything other than a loss, but surely there should be some consultation, given this move constitutes the total loss of passenger services over a stretch of line? The alternative is travelling either via Leeds or Lancaster, which is as good as no alternative at all!

 

[30907]

The erstwhile weekly morning and evening services between Hellifield and Clitheroe on Sundays are being withdrawn, which is pretty inconvenient for me. I realise this service has no hope of making anything other than a loss, but surely there should be some consultation, given this move constitutes the total loss of passenger services over a stretch of line? The alternative is travelling either via Leeds or Lancaster, which is as good as no alternative at all!

I agree; a RRB should run from Clitheroe to Hellifield or Settle at 0915 to connect with the first train ex Manchester, and back in the early evening, until a revised service can be put in place (as is being discussed for 2024 AIUI). (It might need to run on as far as Ribblehead if the first ex Leeds is very busy.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree; a RRB should run from Clitheroe to Hellifield or Settle at 0915 to connect with the first train ex Manchester, and back in the early evening, until a revised service can be put in place (as is being discussed for 2024 AIUI). (It might need to run on as far as Ribblehead if the first ex Leeds is very busy.)

It needs bringing back properly as DalesRail with significant marketing effort including guided walks etc. It used to be very popular.

 

[nw1]

It needs bringing back properly as DalesRail with significant marketing effort including guided walks etc. It used to be very popular.

I do wonder whether there would be a scope for a Manchester to Carlisle (summer weekends only) service via Blackburn and Clitheroe, but that's really a topic for the speculative section, will try and start one later.

 

[Verulamius]

The direct Euston to St Albans Abbey train is back, now leaving Euston at 1518. This is a conversion of a non passenger train from Euston to Watford Junction into a passenger service.

The reverse train leaving Watford Junction at 1536 remains as non passenger.

 

[PGAT]

Brockenhurst has 1 mil annual passengers. That sufficiently justifies 4tph