May 2023 changes

[Grumpy Git]

It's exactly the same with connections onto the LNWR stopping service at Crewe towards Euston - Liverpool trains arrive xx18 - Euston service leaves xx13 - so you have to wait just under an hour.

........... but it was absolutely fine before they changed it no so long ago. It's almost like a wind-up.

 

[adrock1976]

It's exactly the same with connections onto the LNWR stopping service at Crewe towards Euston - Liverpool trains arrive xx18 - Euston service leaves xx13 - so you have to wait just under an hour.

Regarding the Liverpool - Birmingham, could those be switched to the opposite half hour, being as it used to be a 30 minute frequency pre pandemic?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Regarding the Liverpool - Birmingham, could those be switched to the opposite half hour, being as it used to be a 30 minute frequency pre pandemic?

It was timed on the opposite half-hour before they changed it recently!

 

[sonic2009]

Regarding the Liverpool - Birmingham, could those be switched to the opposite half hour, being as it used to be a 30 minute frequency pre pandemic?

That's how they were before the timetable change xx06 off Liverpool.

 

[jimm]

Also very true from a Cotswold point-of-view. The GWR superfasts absolutely trashed the commuter service between Reading and the Cotswolds, with just one direct train between 1630 and 2000. I'm very pleased to see them added to the "let's just forget that happened, shall we?" pile.

Edit: I presume that applies to the Stroud/Cheltenham line too - right now there's a 1553 departure from Reading to Cheltenham, then two running through fast, meaning the next direct service is 1855.

But there will still be a gap in direct trains from Reading to the Cotswold Line in key commuter time between 16.19 and 18.00, with the only options on offer being the 16.48 to Oxford and a change to the halts train (so no use to anyone going to Worcestershire) or the 17.15 XC to Oxford, changing on to the 16.58 from Paddington to Great Malvern.

If XC is still going to turn out a pair of Voyagers for the 17.15 service, that would not be too bad from a passenger loading post of view (the wider passenger experience on a Voyager these days is another matter), but if the extension of this service from Birmingham to Manchester from May is accompanied by the resumption of operation with a single set, then it will again become the full and standing scrum it was prior to March 2020.

And having used the 17.15 & change at Oxford combination this Monday, I couldn't help thinking that making the 16.58 from Paddington pick up only at Reading - backed up by a wave of full ticket checks straight after departure from Paddington to deter any smart alec Reading commuters - might be the way forward, as the IET reached Oxford with seats to spare. I assume it is a bit busier with Tuesday to Thursday commuters and 'weekend away' travel on Fridays, but I haven't used it on any of those days recently.

And before anyone says 'headway behind the 387 semi-fast to Didcot and following Bristol service means you cannot stop at Reading' - one of the excuses used in 2019 - let's look at what will happen from May:

1. The 387 running in front of the 16.58 on the main line as far as Maidenhead leaves at 16.50, with the Bristol departure at 17.00, instead of the current 17.02.
2. The 17.57 departure will call at Reading after leaving Paddington just six minutes behind the 17.51 to Didcot, while the following Bristol service leaves at 18.01.
3. Then the 18.57, also calling at Reading, will be preceded by an 18.50 to Didcot, while the Bristol departure is at 19.02.

The West Country departures following the Bristol services also jump around by a minute or two.

I would be interested to know whether anyone can provide an explanation for these variations in a supposedly standard timetable pattern.

Cheltenham-bound services will indeed call at Reading at xx.5x through the late afternoon and early evening peak period.

 

[JonathanH]

Regarding the Liverpool - Birmingham, could those be switched to the opposite half hour, being as it used to be a 30 minute frequency pre pandemic?

That would probably break a connection important to another group of passengers.

 

[jon0844]

More use of 387s, fewer 700s, that and the Cambridge to Ashford services are dead now as there’s a new SE service that has taken the path on the south side, so no need for them to be branded TL anymore as they’re never going south of the river.

Sad to hear we'll get more 387s. I can't see commuters liking them, especially during disruption where 700s swallow up crowds.

Also surprised about Alexandra Palace becoming a permanent stop for the stoppers from now on, and even more disappointed that in the evening Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar only get an hourly service from King's Cross (I know this happened last September, but I did hope it might be a temporary thing - and at least WGC got services from Brighton).

One wonders if the 387s will run more often as four cars too, which really will be fun.

 

[bramling]

Sad to hear we'll get more 387s. I can't see commuters liking them, especially during disruption where 700s swallow up crowds.

Also surprised about Alexandra Palace becoming a permanent stop for the stoppers from now on, and even more disappointed that in the evening Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar only get an hourly service from King's Cross (I know this happened last September, but I did hope it might be a temporary thing - and at least WGC got services from Brighton).

One wonders if the 387s will run more often as four cars too, which really will be fun.

The Alexandra Palace stop was a feature of the original consultation timetable for the ECML recast. Not sure if this is a hangover from that, or merely to assuage local users because the Moorgate services have been cut. I agree it’s probably a negative thing.

Some of the evening services have been restored, but surprised there’s not a 2157 service as that’s a relatively popular time.

I don’t remember seeing any 4 cars in the diagrams, indeed it’s unlikely as they generally interwork with the Ely and Kings Lynn services. It wouldn’t surprise me if they appear at times though!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

More use of 387s, fewer 700s, that and the Cambridge to Ashford services are dead now as there’s a new SE service that has taken the path on the south side, so no need for them to be branded TL anymore as they’re never going south of the river.

Will the majority of these KGX CBG stoppers be booked for 387s now then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2023 ==

Any chance then that the sleeper will take local passengers again? Presumably there is still a seated coach for those who don't want to pay for a berth.

Just tell them you're getting off at Totnes and they let you on, that's what I do

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2023 ==

Bath Spa's call was 1tpd , so I can't see that being put back

It's interesting that since COVID Bath has gone from being served by 3 operators to purely just GWR

It's not like the other two ever served it more than very infrequently though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2023 ==

Yes exactly that. All concessions now so anything promised with the original franchise now means nothing.

With nothing given to the public who were promised so many many improvements, not even an apology or explanation. SWR, for example, promised fully refurbished 159s by now, direct Portsmouth Weymouth, an entirely 2+2 seated trains operation of Portsmouth fasts and toilets on all mainland trains from late 2020.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2023 ==

The only major changes West of Carmarthen expected are on the Fishguard branch, with it going to a consistent 2 hourly all day service (running in the alternate hours to the Milford services).

According to RTT, nothing between 1pm and 7pm still.

 

[dk1]

With nothing given to the public who were promised so many many improvements, not even an apology or explanation. SWR, for example, promised fully refurbished 159s by now, direct Portsmouth Weymouth, an entirely 2+2 seated trains operation of Portsmouth fasts and toilets on all mainland trains from late 2020.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2023 ==

Unfortunately that’s the way it is unless the DfT wants to fund it.

 

[Park47515]

Sad to hear we'll get more 387s. I can't see commuters liking them, especially during disruption where 700s swallow up crowds.

Also surprised about Alexandra Palace becoming a permanent stop for the stoppers from now on, and even more disappointed that in the evening Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar only get an hourly service from King's Cross (I know this happened last September, but I did hope it might be a temporary thing - and at least WGC got services from Brighton).

One wonders if the 387s will run more often as four cars too, which really will be fun.

Not sure extra calls at a station that is the closest station to a significant number of events in the park, and has significant footfall is a bad thing! - especially when it provides better connectivity

 

[Bald Rick]

With nothing given to the public who were promised so many many improvements, not even an apology or explanation. SWR, for example, promised fully refurbished 159s by now, direct Portsmouth Weymouth, an entirely 2+2 seated trains operation of Portsmouth fasts and toilets on all mainland trains from late 2020.

Strictly speaking, SWR were contracted to deliver that, and then that contract was terminated. They are not contracted to deliver it now.

 

[swt_passenger]

With nothing given to the public who were promised so many many improvements, not even an apology or explanation. SWR, for example, promised fully refurbished 159s by now, direct Portsmouth Weymouth, an entirely 2+2 seated trains operation of Portsmouth fasts and toilets on all mainland trains from late 2020.

The proposed direct Portsmouth - Weymouths had already been a victim of the consultation report published in 2018, reduced to a Portsmouth - Bournemouth, as stakeholders preferred to keep the 2 tph Waterloo- Weymouths.

Obviously the latter shorter services are on the very furthest back burner now, presumably never to be seen again...

 

[bramling]

Not sure extra calls at a station that is the closest station to a significant number of events in the park, and has significant footfall is a bad thing! - especially when it provides better connectivity

Depends on individual circumstances.

Pre Covid, Alexandra Palace had 8tph to Moorgate, so it’s hard to see anyone could make much of a case for there being a need to improve on that. Since Covid the off-peak service has reduced to 4tph, so adding 2tph essentially restored 1990s levels of service - albeit not evenly spaced, and considerably extra overall capacity thanks to longer train lengths.

The fly in the ointment is that for those travelling from further out these services are now the only London services from certain destinations. The likes of Knebworth have already lost the fast 365 services they had as part of May 18, and before that many of the peak 2Cxx services used to run fast from Welwyn Garden City to London (albeit not really saving any time). A journey from Knebworth to Finsbury Park now involves five intermediate stops, which compares pretty disfavourably to what existed pre Covid. Though it might be noted that most up services currently have some stand and pathing time, so again the extra stop hasn’t necessarily added much extra time, though it reduces the ability to make up time when running late, which isn’t exactly uncommon on these services.

On balance, given that Alexandra Palace already has a pretty good service, it has the Piccadilly Line just round the corner at Wood Green, and given that there’s never seemed to be a massive demand to get there from places north, I’d say the extra stop is overall more of a hindrance than a benefit. What we should be doing is restoring the pre Covid Moorgate service, but that seems as far away as ever.

 

[GN Boy]

Sad to hear we'll get more 387s. I can't see commuters liking them, especially during disruption where 700s swallow up crowds.

Also surprised about Alexandra Palace becoming a permanent stop for the stoppers from now on, and even more disappointed that in the evening Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar only get an hourly service from King's Cross (I know this happened last September, but I did hope it might be a temporary thing - and at least WGC got services from Brighton).

One wonders if the 387s will run more often as four cars too, which really will be fun.

I agree that it is quite a bizarre choice to stop the 2C/2Rs at Ally Pally. Could understand stopping them during an event at the Palace, but other than that, it’s a bit of a head scratcher!

Generally, GN passengers do appear to favour the 387 in terms of, can we call it comfort? Plenty more tables, plug sockets and armrests compared to a 700.

 

[The exile]

Bath Spa's XC call are not coming back if it was 1tpd. I can't see the DFT saying 1tpd is value for money.

Would agree that it’s unlikely to return, but in terms of the “value for money” it was never about linking Bath to the XC network, but a matter of providing an early service from Bath into Temple Meads with a train that was conveniently available at Bristol - presumably however that could be done the cheapest.

 

[The Planner]

Would agree that it’s unlikely to return, but in terms of the “value for money” it was never about linking Bath to the XC network, but a matter of providing an early service from Bath into Temple Meads with a train that was conveniently available at Bristol - presumably however that could be done the cheapest.

It was orginally done as an ex XC MD lived there.

 

[jon0844]

I agree that it is quite a bizarre choice to stop the 2C/2Rs at Ally Pally. Could understand stopping them during an event at the Palace, but other than that, it’s a bit of a head scratcher!

Generally, GN passengers do appear to favour the 387 in terms of, can we call it comfort? Plenty more tables, plug sockets and armrests compared to a 700.

You can prefer the comfort when you get a seat. Not when you're standing, with little room to move around. I can only hope they use the 700s in the peaks and when Arsenal is at home.

And when there's an event at Alexandra Palace, the inners can get very crowded (station as busy as Finsbury Park, perhaps worse). Now it will be the 2C and 2R services getting crushed, and if they're a 387 then it will be even worse.

 

[A0]

You can prefer the comfort when you get a seat. Not when you're standing, with little room to move around. I can only hope they use the 700s in the peaks and when Arsenal is at home.

And when there's an event at Alexandra Palace, the inners can get very crowded (station as busy as Finsbury Park, perhaps worse). Now it will be the 2C and 2R services getting crushed, and if they're a 387 then it will be even worse.

They tried stopping the outer suburbans at Alexandra Palace for a couple of years back in the 80s - didn't last long and then it reverted to being fast between Finsbury Park and Potters Bar.

The problem with stopping the outers at Alexandra Palace is that when there are events it will encourage more people to use that station, whereas by only having the inners stop there it encourages people who have to travel further to head to Finsbury Park which is better configured to handle a lot of people.

And once again it makes the service from Welwyn, Hatfield and Potters Bar even worse by slowing it down (again). If you compare Welwyn Garden City with Harpenden - WGC gets a vastly slower service to London than Harpenden for example.

 

[nw1]

Nice to see some stations get their XC services back, shame about Brockenhurst and Congleton though.

If XC are going back to singles on Manchester services I can't see why Congleton is not getting its limited XC services back. It had like 3 a day Monday-Saturday I think.

And I don't really see why Brockenhurst shouldn't come back either. There really seems to be little or no advantage to skipping it, when XC managed to call there from (IIRC) the late 80s (and certainly by the mid-90s) to 2019. It provides access to the New Forest, and, perhaps even more critically, access to Lymington and the Isle of Wight with just one change. Looking at the timings, there has been no speed-up between Bournemouth and Southampton, meaning that presumably the 2 mins needed for the Brockenhurst stop will just be spent waiting at a signal somewhere.

(I made the same point recently on another thread, but IIRC there was no reply; apologies if this point was discussed earlier and I missed it).

 

[Llandudno]

And I don't really see why Brockenhurst shouldn't come back either. There really seems to be little or no advantage to skipping it, when XC managed to call there from (IIRC) the late 80s (and certainly by the mid-90s) to 2019. It provides access to the New Forest, and, perhaps even more critically, access to Lymington and the Isle of Wight with just one change. Looking at the timings, there has been no speed-up between Bournemouth and Southampton, meaning that presumably the 2 mins needed for the Brockenhurst stop will just be spent waiting at a signal somewhere.

(I made the same point recently on another thread, but IIRC there was no reply; apologies if this point was discussed earlier and I missed it).

Same happens with the omission of Chesterfield on many XC services, the trains simply sit at Derby or Sheffield to wait time.

I guess the fewer stops made by XC helps reduce overcrowding and reduces the likelihood of forking out for delay repay.

 

[Goldfish62]

I guess the fewer stops made by XC helps reduce overcrowding and reduces the likelihood of forking out for delay repay.

What a cynical way of carrying on if true.

 

[J-2739]

What a cynical way of carrying on if true.

Isn't it just. Anyone would think of it as a growth opportunity!

 

[nw1]

Same happens with the omission of Chesterfield on many XC services, the trains simply sit at Derby or Sheffield to wait time.

Which is equally silly if they used to stop there.

I guess the fewer stops made by XC helps reduce overcrowding and reduces the likelihood of forking out for delay repay.

Doubtful it's the former, as the Bournemouth-Southampton section tends to be lightly loaded, particularly in comparison with further north.

And if "reducing the likelihood of forking out for delay repay"is the reason - well what can I say? If that's justification for removing a long-standing stop of 30+ years, what sorry times we live in...

 

[JW4]

Does anyone have the link to Avanti’s timetable for May onwards?

edit: Got it

 

[Failed Unit]

The Alexandra Palace stop was a feature of the original consultation timetable for the ECML recast. Not sure if this is a hangover from that, or merely to assuage local users because the Moorgate services have been cut. I agree it’s probably a negative thing.

Some of the evening services have been restored, but surprised there’s not a 2157 service as that’s a relatively popular time.

I don’t remember seeing any 4 cars in the diagrams, indeed it’s unlikely as they generally interwork with the Ely and Kings Lynn services. It wouldn’t surprise me if they appear at times though!

I hadn’t clocked myself that the service would only be hourly later in the evening. Makes the service much less desirable. Definitely not welcoming the Alexandra Palace stop, I know it won‘t make much difference to time.

I will welcome the 387s over the 700s, more seats, better seats (but accept Jon’s point they have less standing room)

I didn’t really like the Thameslink evening services to WGC, if using Kings Cross (I know walking to St Pancras isn‘t a hardship) But a train on a platform is nice if early to the station. Lots of people leaving WGC were on the train before St Pancras so I think the direct Thameslink will be missed.

If the 387s are over-crowded in the peak, I suspect people will go to the WGC - Sevenoaks service instead. It isn’t much slower despite the extra stops.

Sadly typical timetable change, make things a little worse. Oh well if only Micheal Green was still the transport minister,

 

[Liverpool 507]

When is East Midlands Railway 1L08 0851 Liverpool to Norwich likely to be reinstated?

 

[LowLevel]

When is East Midlands Railway 1L08 0851 Liverpool to Norwich likely to be reinstated?

Who knows. Maybe December? Maybe never? Not much logic to decisions nowadays regardless!

 

[MikeWM]

Generally, GN passengers do appear to favour the 387 in terms of, can we call it comfort? Plenty more tables, plug sockets and armrests compared to a 700.

And wifi (well, on most - until GN get around to (re-)fitting wifi to the ex-c2c 387s). And a much nicer internal ambience. And actual carriages with doors between them, so you don't hear noise carrying down the train from three carriages away.

I'd imagine that those of us living north of Cambridge are not going to be happy about seeing 700s show up again. Certainly I'm not.

 

[dk1]

When is East Midlands Railway 1L08 0851 Liverpool to Norwich likely to be reinstated?

Nothing definite yet. See it still starts at Nottingham from May. Seems so odd missing at a busy time too.