May 2023 changes

[Watershed]

Extending that argument, why not have a service all night, on all lines, for the passengers that might use it then?

The point is that there are very few passengers on the last trains down the MML. We can’t, indeed shouldn’t, try to provide a railway service that is convenient for everyone‘s transport needs all the time. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and sometimes that line needs to move.

There is no indication that this change is happening to allow extended engineering access or similar (if so, no-one has piped up!); it's a purely penny-pinching move done to give the appearance of doing 'something' to save money. How much will this realistically save?

You also have to wonder why other lines continue to enjoy similarly timed first and last services. And why, at the very least, the 23:35 to Nottingham can't be extended to Derby in passenger service, rather than running ECS.

 

[bengley]

The last train from Euston being 0139 on most days but 0015 on Saturday night/Sunday morning is for this sort of reason, and it's fairly annoying.

There is an 0200 RRB but it isn't well used because it basically takes all night. Before the VHF timetable works there was an 0200 train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==



Presumably that pays for said 0200 bus?

The 0200 bus was a train until before COVID as far as I'm aware. When I worked at Euston in 2012 there was a 0200 'London Midland' service to Watford Junction which was actually operated by London Overground and went on the DC lines calling at Wembley Central, Harrow, Bushey and Watford Junction.

Then there was a bus to Milton Keynes from there which arrived at something ridiculous like 0430. Ouch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 0200 bus was a train until before COVID as far as I'm aware. When I worked at Euston in 2012 there was a 0200 'London Midland' service to Watford Junction which was actually operated by London Overground and went on the DC lines calling at Wembley Central, Harrow, Bushey and Watford Junction.

Then there was a bus to Milton Keynes from there which arrived at something ridiculous like 0430. Ouch.

The 0200 has not been a train throughout since the start of the work for VHF in the mid 2000s. There was briefly an 0200 Overground to Watford with the coaches going from there, I think, as you say, but that was for a relatively short period and ended well before COVID.

It's a very unpleasant journey that few would plan to use.

 

[87015]

The 0200 has not been a train throughout since the start of the work for VHF in the mid 2000s. There was briefly an 0200 Overground to Watford with the coaches going from there, I think, as you say, but that was for a relatively short period and ended well before COVID.

It's a very unpleasant journey that few would plan to use.

Not correct, it was 150s vice 321 for the majority of WCRM digging years. It only went bus afterwards (when Silverlink finished?).

 

[newtownmgr]

My service has been reduced since Covid. So if it’s all the same to you, I will continue to speak out if I believe it’s necessary

I think we need to be lucky in the west mids that we are not suffering the service cuts that other parts of the country are. It may still happen going forward but we are lucky with a pro rail metro mayor & regional authority at present.

 

[driverd]

In honesty, the industry need to be capitalising on a market where one exists. Unfortunately, maintenence needs don't always tally with this, and it's a great shame.

For example, an last train between 00.30 and 02.00 may be very well used on a Friday/Saturday night (or after a sporting event etc), whilst may run near empty Mon-Thu.

Part of the issue, I believe, is the governing paradigm that the railway must run an identical service, 7 days a week (or atleast 6). There's also the issue with most possessions taking place over weekends - so the most in demand evenings (Fri/Sat) are usually the ones that see service curtailed.

 

[yorksrob]

Extending that argument, why not have a service all night, on all lines, for the passengers that might use it then?

The point is that there are very few passengers on the last trains down the MML. We can’t, indeed shouldn’t, try to provide a railway service that is convenient for everyone‘s transport needs all the time. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and sometimes that line needs to move.

Or turning things around, why not specify the train service needed and provide a bus service when required.

The 23:23 Leeds - Wakefield is clearly needed every other weekday. It's inconceivable that that need just disappears on a Saturday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not correct, it was 150s vice 321 for the majority of WCRM digging years. It only went bus afterwards (when Silverlink finished?).

For the majority of WCRM years it was buses from Euston after about 2200!

I don't recall ever seeing 150s on it so I think that must have been quite early. Unless the "Overground" service to Watford was 150s.

 

[Class 170101]

That’s fine, but don’t complain when electrification costs £4m per km because it’s mostly being done in 4hour slots overnight whilst 3 people from Derby who went to see Les Mis preferred to get home at 2am rather than spend the night in a Premier Inn.

But why does the railway need to add to the costs of people (ie the hotel)? Surely the MML with the track formation it has (as I note further down) can be a two track railway and / or diversions overnight for the main conurbations? Indeed for projects like the OLE on this route why isn't a blockade between Leicester South and Kettering with diversions being used? It appears to be being applied (at least in part) for TPE wiring

It’s a matter of fact that these trains are very lightly used, and a significant majority of passengers on them will still travel on another service if the train is Removed from the timetable.

Besides, my Mrs goes to shows and concerts all the time in London, and routinely makes 2300ish departures from St Pancras.

Sorry @Bald Rick but the MML is a four track railway as far as Kettering, two track railway with an alternative route from Kettering to Leicester, and a mixture of three or four tracks from Leicester to Trent Jn with various routes (maybe with a reversal) from Trent Jn to both Nottingham and Derby. You aren't telling me that NR cannot make this work with their maintenance without removing trains totally from the timetable? Also what does NR define as a train lightly loaded? Is it 20 people, 50 people, 100 people?

I think we need to be lucky in the west mids that we are not suffering the service cuts that other parts of the country are. It may still happen going forward but we are lucky with a pro rail metro mayor & regional authority at present.

Cynical mode here but maybe Tory government helping out a Tory mayor here. Can't see that being the case in Yorkshire, Manchester or Liverpool, hopefully I'm wrong but I fear not.

In honesty, the industry need to be capitalising on a market where one exists. Unfortunately, maintenence needs don't always tally with this, and it's a great shame.

This comment sums up my view perfectly but it needs all parties to want to play.

For example, an last train between 00.30 and 02.00 may be very well used on a Friday/Saturday night (or after a sporting event etc), whilst may run near empty Mon-Thu.

There may be an argument for a different plan earlier in the week compared to later in the week and it is possible to do - see below.

Part of the issue, I believe, is the governing paradigm that the railway must run an identical service, 7 days a week (or atleast 6). There's also the issue with most possessions taking place over weekends - so the most in demand evenings (Fri/Sat) are usually the ones that see service curtailed.

Incorrect. 23:18 Liverpool Street to Clacton now runs six days a week, it used to only run Thursday to Saturday nights. On Monday to Wednesday nights it finished at Colchester.

 

[Starmill]

Sorry @Bald Rick but the MML is a four track railway as far as Kettering, two track railway with an alternative route from Kettering to Leicester, and a mixture of three or four tracks from Leicester to Trent Jn with various routes (maybe with a reversal) from Trent Jn to both Nottingham and Derby. You aren't telling me that NR cannot make this work with their maintenance without removing trains totally from the timetable? Also what does NR define as a train lightly loaded? Is it 20 people, 50 people, 100 people?

To be fair, I don't think anyone is saying that it can't work. It plainly could and would because it has been doing just that for many years. The point being made is that making it work is difficult and expensive, and lots of services which are feasible to run but difficult and expensive are being removed.

Obviously I don't agree with it but it's the way it is now all over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==

Cynical mode here but maybe Tory government helping out a Tory mayor here. Can't see that being the case in Yorkshire, Manchester or Liverpool, hopefully I'm wrong but I fear not.

Depends what you mean by helping out. Suburban stations on the Snow Hill and Cross City lines are permanently reduced in frequency as a result of the pandemic-led changes, and the all-day semi-fast WMR Birmingham New Street - Shrewsbury service has been abandoned, as has the 2tph to Liverpool. The through trains between Stone and Birmingham are also now much slower. Obviously a lot of that mainly affects the border counties rather than West Midlands itself, but another consequence is the frequency cut at Tile Hill, Marston Green and Coseley.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is no indication that this change is happening to allow extended engineering access or similar (if so, no-one has piped up!)

I’m piping up

However this change will save fuel, crew, unit mileage (I suspect this with other changes may get it below a charging threshold), and a few other costs. I’d be surprised if it saved less than £1m pa. The revenue at risk will be a fraction of that.

And why, at the very least, the 23:35 to Nottingham can't be extended to Derby in passenger service, rather than running ECS.

Fair point.

Or turning things around, why not specify the train service needed

That’s exactly what has happened in this case. Of course it depends on your definition of ‘needed’. And be careful what you wish for - there’s plenty of services, stations and lines that could easily be shown to be ‘not needed’.

Also what does NR define as a train lightly loaded? Is it 20 people, 50 people, 100 people?

No idea. But in my opinion, lightly loaded for a long distance ‘Inter City’ type service is anything less than half a coach full of passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==

But why does the railway need to add to the costs of people (ie the hotel)?

Look at it another way - why should the taxpayer, ie most of us, incur the costs of running an expensive train for very, very few people?

 

[Class 170101]

Depends what you mean by helping out. Suburban stations on the Snow Hill and Cross City lines are permanently reduced in frequency as a result of the pandemic-led changes, and the all-day semi-fast WMR Birmingham New Street - Shrewsbury service has been abandoned, as has the 2tph to Liverpool. The through trains between Stone and Birmingham are also now much slower. Obviously a lot of that mainly affects the border counties rather than West Midlands itself, but another consequence is the frequency cut at Tile Hill, Marston Green and Coseley.

Guess it depends on whether that is a severe a cut(s) as it could be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==

No idea. But in my opinion, lightly loaded for a long distance ‘Inter City’ type service is anything less than half a coach full of passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==

As in half a coach full in each coach operated on any given service or just half a coach full stop

Look at it another way - why should the taxpayer, ie most of us, incur the costs of running an expensive train for very, very few people?

Depends if we are trying to change the way people travel. If we want cars to be absolute then close the railways and don't provide bus services unless they wash their face commercially but don't complain if we don't have social mobility and other lobby groups chasing the government of the day because thats what a select few have decided.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Depends if we are trying to change the way people travel. If we want cars to be absolute then close the railways and don't provide bus services unless they wash their face commercially but don't complain if we don't have social mobility and other lobby groups chasing the government of the day because thats what a select few have decided.

At the moment DfT has to attempt to close the gap on the operational deficit and it appears to be spreading the burden around all operators irrespective of ridership so EMR takes this service out and protects the rest of its services. Frequency is already good across MML with good operating hours but you start undermining frequency on already poor rural routes and you will have no chance of modal shift.

 

[Bald Rick]

As in half a coach full in each coach operated on any given service or just half a coach full stop

The latter.

Depends if we are trying to change the way people travel. If we want cars to be absolute then close the railways and don't provide bus services unless they wash their face commercially but don't complain if we don't have social mobility and other lobby groups chasing the government of the day because thats what a select few have decided.

That’s a rather extreme view, and no one is suggesting that. As I said upthread, AIUI this (current) last service to Derby is very lightly loaded most nights, certainly north of Kettering. Many of those using it are simply on the last service, ie if the last service is earlier they will be on that instead. The number of journeys that switch to other modes, or don’t happen at all, because of this change will be very, very small - almost certainly in single figures per night, and probably zero most nights.

 

[Some guy]

A very interesting change I’ve noticed from the may 2023 changes the 5:30 Blackpool North to Euston service will no longer call at Kirkham & wesham or poulton le fylde and in now retimed to depart at 5:35 instead. They’ve only just reintroduced stops at those stations only to drop them 5 months later it wouldn’t have ruined any paths to still call there

 

[dk1]

A very interesting change I’ve noticed from the may 2023 changes the 5:30 Blackpool North to Euston service will no longer call at Kirkham & wesham or poulton le fylde and in now retimed to depart at 5:35 instead. They’ve only just reintroduced stops at those stations only to drop them 5 months later it wouldn’t have ruined any paths to still call there

In readiness for the 805/807s?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In readiness for the 805/807s?

A very interesting change I’ve noticed from the may 2023 changes the 5:30 Blackpool North to Euston service will no longer call at Kirkham & wesham or poulton le fylde and in now retimed to depart at 5:35 instead. They’ve only just reintroduced stops at those stations only to drop them 5 months later it wouldn’t have ruined any paths to still call there

It looks like the train no longer attaches at Crewe so is presumably now a full length train away from Blackpool meaning it’s too long to call at Kirkham and Poulton.

 

[dk1]

It looks like the train no longer attaches at Crewe so is presumably now a full length train away from Blackpool meaning it’s too long to call at Kirkham and Poulton.

Ahh that makes sense.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Ahh that makes sense.

Do 390s not have SDO then?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do 390s not have SDO then?

None of the ex Virgin fleet has full SDO. You have to lock coaches out manually.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Do 390s not have SDO then?

None of the ex Virgin fleet has full SDO. You have to lock coaches out manually.

And limitations to the number of coaches that can be locked out off the platform stop them from calling at Kirkham or Poulton (or Rugeley if Avanti ever wanted to gift them the peak extras that Tamworth and Lichfield get)

 

[louis97]

None of the ex Virgin fleet has full SDO. You have to lock coaches out manually.

390s do have a form of SDO - it is used at Haymarket and at Wilmslow when diverting via Styal. It isn't down to individual coach level though, can't quite remember - front or rear 3 coaches rings a bell.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

390s do have a form of SDO - it is used at Haymarket and at Wilmslow when diverting via Styal. It isn't down to individual coach level though, can't quite remember - front or rear 3 coaches rings a bell.

I think that’s why he put full in front of SDO

 

[dk1]

None of the ex Virgin fleet has full SDO. You have to lock coaches out manually.

Another reason why until we get the new order that nothing Virgin/Avanti wise has ever been able to stop at Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

390s do have a form of SDO - it is used at Haymarket and at Wilmslow when diverting via Styal. It isn't down to individual coach level though, can't quite remember - front or rear 3 coaches rings a bell.

Rear 2 or 3 I believe. Used for places a 9 car fits but an 11 doesn't.

 

[sk688]

One has to wonder how long services like the 0134 Euston to MK and 0330 MK to Euston will last at this rate , given the withdrawal of last and early morning trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

One has to wonder how long services like the 0134 Euston to MK and 0330 MK to Euston will last at this rate , given the withdrawal of last and early morning trains

I used the 0330 once and it was mostly London Underground staff!

0134 is very quiet other than on Fridays - I've used it a couple of times after work nights out. The only day that really justifies it is Saturday, when it doesn't run!

 

[jeremyjh]

One has to wonder how long services like the 0134 Euston to MK and 0330 MK to Euston will last at this rate , given the withdrawal of last and early morning trains

Presumably there's a comparison with e.g. overnight services Paddington - Reading.

 

[bramling]

Presumably there's a comparison with e.g. overnight services Paddington - Reading.

GTR run a fair few very early and very late services on the GN side. Indeed the Peterborough route isn’t massively short of having an overnight service, subject to engineering works of course. Though naturally they don’t load particularly heavily, especially since 2018 these services are now 8 or even 12 cars, they carry a fair few railway staff, especially LU and LNER. Quite a few LNER staff based in London seem to live between Hitchin and Peterborough, and at times it seems like half of LU lives in Peterborough.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think that’s why he put full in front of SDO

Precisely! Yes the limited SDO can basically turn an 11 car 390 into a 9 car 390 but not do anything else which is what would be needed at Kirkham or Poulton.