May 2023 changes

[HamworthyGoods]

It’s the 0357 ex Derby that’s going, but the 0412 is still there. That arrives 0636, which is rather earlier than any Avanti or LNER arrival into London from the Midlands / North.

on the down, it’s only really Leicester and Derby passengers that lose out - Stations from Bedford southwards still have the TL services, and Wellingboro’ / Kettering have a Corby at 2354.

I don’t have the passenger numbers to hand, but IIRC they were very lightly loaded most of the time, and I imagine that pretty much everyone who used them will just switch to the slightly later / earlier train as appropriate. Revenue loss will be peanuts.

Having both an 03.57 and an 04.12 from Derby to London does seem a bit of an over provision!

 

[Bald Rick]

Having both an 03.57 and an 04.12 from Derby to London does seem a bit of an over provision!

And the 0447 and 0530; currently that’s 4 trains off Derby arriving London before 0710! There will still be three..

 

[mangyiscute]

yeah as someone who does often take the crazy early trains, its useful to have them but like the 05:31 from Euston to Glasgow is always the lightest loaded glasgow train of the day (thankfully it gets busy around Crewe/Preston so shouldn't be cut) so that is probably the most sensible place to make cuts

 

[Watershed]

And the 0447 and 0530; currently that’s 4 trains off Derby arriving London before 0710! There will still be three..

Ok, so the loss of the early train isn't quite as bad as I feared. The loss of an after-midnight departure from St Pancras is probably more significant; no chance of a reasonably long night out.

 

[Mamorin]

My point was, 2tph on a Sunday in 2023 is completely unacceptable

Your lucky the snow hill lines have 2tph on a Sunday, some stations only have a few services a day on a Sunday.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ok, so the loss of the early train isn't quite as bad as I feared. The loss of an after-midnight departure from St Pancras is probably more significant; no chance of a reasonably long night out.

Id argue it only really affects passengers to Derby. For any other station on the route, as long as you have left your central London venue of choice by 2300, you’ll be at St P in time for the 2335 to Nottingham. That’s still a decent night out. London to Derby passengers would need to be half an hour earlier for the 2305 although with a Derby arrival of 0201 I question how many people will actually be doing that. A handful a night I expect.

 

[JonathanH]

London to Derby passengers would need to be half an hour earlier for the 2305 although with a Derby arrival of 0201 I question how many people will actually be doing that. A handful a night I expect.

There is a 2359 coach to Derby from Victoria as well (0030 from Golders Green) on which it night be easier to sleep.

 

[LowLevel]

Id argue it only really affects passengers to Derby. For any other station on the route, as long as you have left your central London venue of choice by 2300, you’ll be at St P in time for the 2335 to Nottingham. That’s still a decent night out. London to Derby passengers would need to be half an hour earlier for the 2305 although with a Derby arrival of 0201 I question how many people will actually be doing that. A handful a night I expect.

It's still 20 minutes later than it used to be at 2315 too - the 0015 of course is a fairly recent invention and only ran to Leicester until last year or the year before, then empty to Etches Park.

For an Intercity service that isn't bad.

My main bugbear has always been with the morning northbound service - the fact I can reach Sheffield 20 minutes before I can get to Nottingham which is just up the road grates!

 

[NewClee153]

Your lucky the snow hill lines have 2tph on a Sunday, some stations only have a few services a day on a Sunday.

How arrogant of me to expect an improved service. I’ll settle and never strive for more going forward. Pulling your leg , whilst 2tph is more than some other lines, it’s been 2tph for well over 12 years

The CrossCity line appears to be mostly unchanged, when are 4tph to Lichfield expected?

 

[James90012]

It's still 20 minutes later than it used to be at 2315 too - the 0015 of course is a fairly recent invention and only ran to Leicester until last year or the year before, then empty to Etches Park.

For an Intercity service that isn't bad.

My main bugbear has always been with the morning northbound service - the fact I can reach Sheffield 20 minutes before I can get to Nottingham which is just up the road grates!

That's not quite true as the 5.27 connects into a Nottingham train which starts at Kettering, not direct but the option is there.

I find the point about the value of the MML early / late services interesting. If they really have such little value, why have operator after operator been contracted to run them since privatisation?

 

[mangyiscute]

How arrogant of me to expect an improved service. I’ll settle and never strive for more going forward. Pulling your leg , whilst 2tph is more than some other lines, it’s been 2tph for well over 12 years

With all of the cuts that are being done currently due to post covid and a very tight budget from the government, yes you should settle and be happy that your service isn't being cut in half

 

[NewClee153]

With all of the cuts that are being done currently due to post covid and a very tight budget from the government, yes you should settle and be happy that your service isn't being cut in half

My service has been reduced since Covid. So if it’s all the same to you, I will continue to speak out if I believe it’s necessary

 

[mangyiscute]

My service has been reduced since Covid. So if it’s all the same to you, I will continue to speak out if I believe it’s necessary

Just if you had read through the thread, you would have realised that there are going to be very few if any service improvements in this timetable change, as sadly it's all about cost cutting - therefore complaining about there being no improvement is quite ironic

 

[Benjwri]

Just if you had read through the thread, you would have realised that there are going to be very few if any service improvements in this timetable change, as sadly it's all about cost cutting - therefore complaining about there being no improvement is quite ironic

There are a few service improvements, most notably MetroWest, as mentioned above, but granted these are paid for by the local authority rather than the DfT.

I wouldn’t say complaining is ironic, granted this time it’s not the TOCs who decided to cut services, but the decision was made at the level of the DfT, and we can complain about that.

 

[NewClee153]

Just if you had read through the thread, you would have realised that there are going to be very few if any service improvements in this timetable change, as sadly it's all about cost cutting - therefore complaining about there being no improvement is quite ironic

I mean, isn’t that the whole point of a forum?

I find it strange that I’m being scrutinised for criticising the lack of service increases, but I haven’t seen anyone else given the same treatment

 

[43055]

Having both an 03.57 and an 04.12 from Derby to London does seem a bit of an over provision!

And the 0447 and 0530; currently that’s 4 trains off Derby arriving London before 0710! There will still be three..

Some of those services go via Nottingham. Probably just a useful extension of one or two services that would pick up crew at Derby and then run empty to Nottingham before heading to London. So enables earlier Derby to Nottingham services and more Derby to London ones.

 

[gnolife]

True, but i’m not entirely sure if both trains from the Largs/Ardrossan direction need to serve Howwood or Lochwinnoch. Nobody really seems to get on at those stops.

I’d agree with sending the Largs service to be semi-fast (and not call at Lochwinnoch/Howwood as per the old timetable)

Although, keeping 1tph to Ayr and 1tph to Largs after 8:30pm is something I don’t agree with.

Really it should be 2tph Ayr and 1tph Largs, especially on a Friday/Saturday

Lochwinnoch gets pretty similar passenger numbers to Milliken Park, Dalry, Barassie, Prestwick Airport, and Ardrossan South Beach - are you suggesting that they all also go to 1tph (and I dread to think what level of service Newton-on-Ayr would justify)?

 

[bunnahabhain]

That's not quite true as the 5.27 connects into a Nottingham train which starts at Kettering, not direct but the option is there.

I find the point about the value of the MML early / late services interesting. If they really have such little value, why have operator after operator been contracted to run them since privatisation?

It is true for passengers from Leicester and Loughborough who need to get to Nottingham, the first arrival into Nottingham from the South is 0712, and we can be in Sheffield for 0708. The first Northbound service is the 0548 Leicester to Sheffield, itself cut back from Kettering in the December 2022 changes. Probably due to OHLE work on the main line via Market Harborough.

Ideally the 0522 XC ECS Leicester to Nottingham would run in service, as it carries a Guard on it anyway it shouldn't be a hard change, but as everything has to fit into each operators toybox it'll never happen.

 

[Class 170101]

Id argue it only really affects passengers to Derby. For any other station on the route, as long as you have left your central London venue of choice by 2300, you’ll be at St P in time for the 2335 to Nottingham. That’s still a decent night out. London to Derby passengers would need to be half an hour earlier for the 2305 although with a Derby arrival of 0201 I question how many people will actually be doing that. A handful a night I expect.

Thats as maybe but NR have always resented early morning and late night trains as it impinges on their maintenance access they say. It should be pointed out there used to be a 23:40ish St Pancras to Derby via Nottingham. NR had this pulled back to 23:15ish and now its been pushed out again. What NR need to realise is that theatres and other entertainment / leisure venues finish around 22:30ish not around 18:00 like commuters did and go home at that time.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thats as maybe but NR have always resented early morning and late night trains as it impinges on their maintenance access they say. It should be pointed out there used to be a 23:40ish St Pancras to Derby via Nottingham. NR had this pulled back to 23:15ish and now it’s been pushed out again. What NR need to realise is that theatres and other entertainment / leisure venues finish around 22:30ish not around 18:00 like commuters did and go home at that time.

That’s fine, but don’t complain when electrification costs £4m per km because it’s mostly being done in 4hour slots overnight whilst 3 people from Derby who went to see Les Mis preferred to get home at 2am rather than spend the night in a Premier Inn.

It’s a matter of fact that these trains are very lightly used, and a significant majority of passengers on them will still travel on another service if the train is Removed from the timetable.

Besides, my Mrs goes to shows and concerts all the time in London, and routinely makes 2300ish departures from St Pancras.

 

[philosopher]

Your lucky the snow hill lines have 2tph on a Sunday, some stations only have a few services a day on a Sunday.

The Snow Hill lines are serving a major urban area, not some quiet rural area. Also that 2 tph becomes 1 tph south of Tyseley, which is not great for an urban area.

 

[dk1]

That’s fine, but don’t complain when electrification costs £4m per km because it’s mostly being done in 4hour slots overnight whilst 3 people from Derby who went to see Les Mis preferred to get home at 2am rather than spend the night in a Premier Inn.

It’s a matter of fact that these trains are very lightly used, and a significant majority of passengers on them will still travel on another service if the train is Removed from the timetable.

Besides, my Mrs goes to shows and concerts all the time in London, and routinely makes 2300ish departures from St Pancras.

Very good point indeed.

 

[yorksrob]

That’s fine, but don’t complain when electrification costs £4m per km because it’s mostly being done in 4hour slots overnight whilst 3 people from Derby who went to see Les Mis preferred to get home at 2am rather than spend the night in a Premier Inn.

It’s a matter of fact that these trains are very lightly used, and a significant majority of passengers on them will still travel on another service if the train is Removed from the timetable.

Besides, my Mrs goes to shows and concerts all the time in London, and routinely makes 2300ish departures from St Pancras.

This is a red herring. If NR need to do major engineering works, they can arrange for the relevant RRB to be put in place, rather than have a service that's inconvenient for passengers all of the time, no ?

 

[The Planner]

This is a red herring. If NR need to do major engineering works, they can arrange for the relevant RRB to be put in place, rather than have a service that's inconvenient for passengers all of the time, no ?

NR compensate operators to do exactly that.

 

[yorksrob]

NR compensate operators to do exactly that.

On some lines they do.

But there are notably others where NR blocks last evening services permanently. I remember enquiring once from Northern why the last train from Leeds to Wakefield (which is around 23:23 on weekdays) had appeared in the Saturday timetable one year, only to disappear from the timetable when it actually came into effect. Turned out that NR blocked this "late night" train permanently for its operational convenience.

 

[The Planner]

On some lines they do.

But there are notably others where NR blocks last evening services permanently. I remember enquiring once from Northern why the last train from Leeds to Wakefield (which is around 23:23 on weekdays) had appeared in the Saturday timetable one year, only to disappear from the timetable when it actually came into effect. Turned out that NR blocked this "late night" train permanently for its operational convenience.

Northern clearly weren't bothered then if it was a permanent removal from the WTT, otherwise they would have disputed it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On some lines they do.

But there are notably others where NR blocks last evening services permanently. I remember enquiring once from Northern why the last train from Leeds to Wakefield (which is around 23:23 on weekdays) had appeared in the Saturday timetable one year, only to disappear from the timetable when it actually came into effect. Turned out that NR blocked this "late night" train permanently for its operational convenience.

The last train from Euston being 0139 on most days but 0015 on Saturday night/Sunday morning is for this sort of reason, and it's fairly annoying.

There is an 0200 RRB but it isn't well used because it basically takes all night. Before the VHF timetable works there was an 0200 train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==

NR compensate operators to do exactly that.

Presumably that pays for said 0200 bus?

 

[yorksrob]

Northern clearly weren't bothered then if it was a permanent removal from the WTT, otherwise they would have disputed it.

I'm sure that going to the extent of printing a paper timetable with the train in, distributing it to stations and publicising it to people only for it to be withdrawn, was just a cunning ruse to make NR look bad.

 

[The Planner]

I'm sure that going to the extent of printing a paper timetable with the train in, distributing it to stations and publicising it to people only for it to be withdrawn, was just a cunning ruse to make NR look bad.

Which would have been peanuts in the grand scheme of things, they could well have claimed that cost back if NR agreed to it.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is a red herring. If NR need to do major engineering works, they can arrange for the relevant RRB to be put in place, rather than have a service that's inconvenient for passengers all of the time, no ?

Extending that argument, why not have a service all night, on all lines, for the passengers that might use it then?

The point is that there are very few passengers on the last trains down the MML. We can’t, indeed shouldn’t, try to provide a railway service that is convenient for everyone‘s transport needs all the time. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and sometimes that line needs to move.