May 2021 Timetable Change

[casual onion]

The last time I looked virtually the whole of the Sheffield to Doncaster stopping service in both directions has been moved to the other half hour!
What is more worrying is what was the first train from Sheffield (05.2x) has been withdrawn therefore severing connections with the 06.10 Doncaster to Edinburgh. Stupidity on a grand scale.

Yes, it now means there's a 20 minute wait at Doncaster at 8am going north, rather than 10 minutes previously for the XC or the 5 minutes if you could make a mad dash for the Edinburgh train.

 

[Ianno87]

The last time I looked virtually the whole of the Sheffield to Doncaster stopping service in both directions has been moved to the other half hour!
What is more worrying is what was the first train from Sheffield (05.2x) has been withdrawn therefore severing connections with the 06.10 Doncaster to Edinburgh. Stupidity on a grand scale.

Is it "stupidity" if the number of actual passengers affected is zero? (at the present time, and at that time of the morning). It might, if anything, be quite a well-evidenced decision.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, it now means there's a 20 minute wait at Doncaster at 8am going north, rather than 10 minutes previously for the XC or the 5 minutes if you could make a mad dash for the Edinburgh train.

Trains are never going to be planned to accommodate changes that are below the minimum connection time.

 

[Glenn1969]

But we shouldn't be thinking about "at the present time". Stay at home ends this weekend and large sections of the economy are expected to reopen on 12th April when I expect leisure travel to show exponential growth when compared to the present time

 

[Ianno87]

But we shouldn't be thinking about "at the present time". Stay at home ends this weekend and large sections of the economy are expected to reopen on 12th April when I expect leisure travel to show exponential growth when compared to the present time

Even in normal times, how many leisure travellers really get on an 05xx train from Sheffield to connected with an 06xx long distance service? (Bear in mind you're in Anytime fare territory).

 

[Peterthegreat]

Even in normal times, how many leisure travellers really get on an 05xx train from Sheffield to connected with an 06xx long distance service? (Bear in mind you're in Anytime fare territory).

Actually quite a few! The problem is that Northern could run the first stopping train from Sheffield earlier. From May we will have departures from Sheffield at 05.48, 06.05 and 06.27. Running the first train 20 minutes earlier would make a lot of sense.
I don't think Anytime fares are relevant. Advance tickets are readily available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2021 ==

But we shouldn't be thinking about "at the present time". Stay at home ends this weekend and large sections of the economy are expected to reopen on 12th April when I expect leisure travel to show exponential growth when compared to the present time

I agree.

 

[Starmill]

The Hull-Leeds part is listed on RTT but arrives Leeds 20 minutes later at 2343. Did they decide that was too late to send the train on to Bradford/Halifax?

As far as I know the 2230 from Hull hasn't previously gone beyond Leeds. It was the 2215 from Hull, which didn't call at Howden and ran through to Halifax via Bradford Interchange, leaving Leeds at 2327 and arriving in Halifax at 0005.

 

[Ianno87]

Actually quite a few! The problem is that Northern could run the first stopping train from Sheffield earlier. From May we will have departures from Sheffield at 05.48, 06.05 and 06.27. Running the first train 20 minutes earlier would make a lot of sense.
I don't think Anytime fares are relevant. Advance tickets are readily available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2021 ==

Fair enough - checking a random date in April reveals a more than reasonable £26.80 Advance fare on the 0610 from Donny to Newcastle!

 

[Glenn1969]

Understood. I thought the 2230 was either the 2215 retimed or a new service. The point remains that they could have sent the 2230 through to Bradford or Halifax because the 2257 is unacceptable as a last train from Leeds to Bradford after leisure reopens

 

[Starmill]

The Hull-Leeds part is listed on RTT but arrives Leeds 20 minutes later at 2343. Did they decide that was too late to send the train on to Bradford/Halifax?

It's certainly not good. Worth noting that the 2320 to Skipton, which serves Shipley, is at least running.

 

[Horizon22]

If only. At my place there's been minimal classroom training, and whilst in-cab training resumed to some extent over the summer, it stopped around November again. The problem is that it's not just a case of things stopping, but if someone's training is suspended mid-way through it isn't necessarily just a case of picking it up again - some people have had to restart from scratch.

The training backlog is absolutely massive in some places, including relicensing / refresher training of extant staff. Likewise even getting long-term sick (and of course those long-term shielding) people back can have issues.

This is not to mention some current drivers losing competence in certain aspects. Route cards for instance and other aspects such as losing competence in coupling / uncoupling trains.

There's a huge backlog to work through and some depots disproportionately hit than others.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Looks like Manchester to London via Crewe is back from the 29th. A good move.

They were in Ŕeal time..seem to have gone now....apart from one Northbound evening service...

 

[janb]

Northern have been abysmal ever since Abellio-Serco were replaced. They don't even appear to have an email address now for enquiries.

Does enquiries@northernrailway.co.uk not work?

Contact directory

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

 

[infobleep]

Can't image there's an awful lot of demand. GWR probably want a better path from Westbury with future timetable changes to remove the long Bedwyn stop and large amount of pathing time. You don't want to be "stuck" with a Pewsey stop for little demand.

Why not introduce it in the mean time. If it's not a popular stop it won't matter if they take it out later.

If so good news. Saves massively on staffing costs too at a time when the railway can ill afford wasteful staffing levels.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2021 ==


There is, however hopefully GWR won't be expecting their loyal customers to have to suffer the inconvenience of getting off one train, and waiting for another. I think lessons have been learned from the past 2 years, I can think of the 1004 off London in particular which last summer a plymouth driver was booked to split the rear 5 off. On every occasion I did it the train going on into Cornwall was very very busy and in some cases full and standing. In the current circumstances with Covid that isnt now deemed acceptable on 2 hour journeys.

I don't think standing on a train was acceptable on a 2 hour journey last summer either.

If they want to return to the old 9tph at some point then no, it cannot stay like that and it doesn't from mid September

Are they expecting train travel to be more popular from September?

And how do you propose doing that when apart from a number of months last summer it has been impossible due to covid restrictions to successfully complete much training?

This isn’t the railway being awkward, this is due to in many cases not being allowed to have a second person in a small confined cab and in the case of driver training hands on learning under instruction is required.

This isn’t a situation the railway has chosen to get into but an enforced one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2021 ==



Incorrect

There were a number of TOCs that took part in a national trial of allowing training during the easing of Covid last summer as agreed with the unions.

Just as that was starting to be rolled out nationally the 2nd wave started to hit and this was suspended. It has only relatively recently restarted.

That is why some TOCs are in better shape than others - those that had partaken in the trial did gain some productive new crew.

EMR's training never stopped once it had started. Guards training on 170s paused as the rollout was delayed anyway but has now resumed, drivers however have been continual. As far as I know all agreed locally with the unions. Getting training agreed was seen as priority number 1.

The same with training new guards which didn't stop at all subject to instructor and trainee both being happy (some stepped back) and drivers came back after a comparatively short hiatus.

For me it shows the main problem - I thought the RICF (Rail Industry Coronavirus Forum) would be a national format to allow these sort of things to occur as well as things like revenue duties but instead it has been a piece meal mess with agreements or lack thereof being locally conducted messes.

Interesting. I didn't know about these.

I take it we are still waiting for thr South Western Railway timetable to be published?

 

[yorksrob]

Does enquiries@northernrailway.co.uk not work?

Contact directory

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

It took me some more comprehensive digging around last night to find it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I take it we are still waiting for thr South Western Railway timetable to be published?

We are. But not for much longer.

 

[yorksrob]

Well Northern have confirmed by email that they won't be removing their temporary timetables until the May timetable change. Even then this is only where this is possible in line with restrictions easing and government guidelines.

Leaving aside the fact that restrictions are easing from 29th March, I dread to think what when this is possible will mean, particularly after last year.

What with the strikes, last year's covid timetables which lasted well beyond lockdown and now, is this oprganisation actually there to run trains ?

 

[zwk500]

Leaving aside the fact that restrictions are easing from 29th March, I dread to think what when this is possible will mean, particularly after last year.

Only some restrictions are easing. Many are remaining in place until June, so it's not unreasonable to expect travel demand to be lower than usual until then. It's also entirely possible (as the government have themselves warned) that the restrictions will not be eased on the dates originally advertised. Again, if less people are travelling you can't blame the train company for running a lower capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

Only some restrictions are easing. Many are remaining in place until June, so it's not unreasonable to expect travel demand to be lower than usual until then. It's also entirely possible (as the government have themselves warned) that the restrictions will not be eased on the dates originally advertised. Again, if less people are travelling you can't blame the train company for running a lower capacity.

It's not about capacity - I can quite understand why train companies will run fewer trains throughout the day.

It is about the length of the travelling day. Currently the last train South from Carlisle on the S&C is before 17:00, and this looks to be remaining at least until the timetable change in May. This is an inadequate state of affairs for any situation outside of full lockdown.

 

[172101]

Only some restrictions are easing. Many are remaining in place until June, so it's not unreasonable to expect travel demand to be lower than usual until then. It's also entirely possible (as the government have themselves warned) that the restrictions will not be eased on the dates originally advertised. Again, if less people are travelling you can't blame the train company for running a lower capacity.

Not everywhere, twice this week the 1634 EUS-TRI has been at social distance capacity, and everything is still 8 car instead of 12.

 

[zwk500]

Not everywhere, twice this week the 1634 EUS-TRI has been at social distance capacity, and everything is still 8 car instead of 12.

I'm not sure what you're responding to with this anecdote? My point was that a reduction in capacity was reasonable because there's a lower demand. You've provided an example where the train ran with a reduced capacity and still everybody was able to be safely accommodated (social distanced), presumably because the usual load factor was less than 67%. Unless you meant that this one particular train was loaded beyond social distance capacity.

Either way, 1 train being at or close to the provided capacity on 2 occasions in the past 5 or 7 days is not exactly a strong case to reintroduce the full service level again. @yorksrob's point about the time of the last train is a valid objection. However, given the normal loadings on the S&C, the potential additional cost (additional driver, guard, fuel, maybe depot staff?) of providing that later service, and the general financial situation of the railway, I can understand why Northern are reluctant to run it when people are still being told not to travel unless absolutely essential.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure what you're responding to with this anecdote? My point was that a reduction in capacity was reasonable because there's a lower demand. You've provided an example where the train ran with a reduced capacity and still everybody was able to be safely accommodated (social distanced), presumably because the usual load factor was less than 67%. Unless you meant that this one particular train was loaded beyond social distance capacity.

Either way, 1 train being at or close to the provided capacity on 2 occasions in the past 5 or 7 days is not exactly a strong case to reintroduce the full service level again. @yorksrob's point about the time of the last train is a valid objection. However, given the normal loadings on the S&C, the potential additional cost (additional driver, guard, fuel, maybe depot staff?) of providing that later service, and the general financial situation of the railway, I can understand why Northern are reluctant to run it when people are still being told not to travel unless absolutely essential.

Just to expand, it's not just the later train - it's the last two covering four hours of the day.

If Northern wants to run fewer trains, it should focus on services that are frequent, not those that are already scarce.

 

[Deerfold]

Understood. I thought the 2230 was either the 2215 retimed or a new service. The point remains that they could have sent the 2230 through to Bradford or Halifax because the 2257 is unacceptable as a last train from Leeds to Bradford after leisure reopens

Oddly there will be a 2340 Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield, but there's nothing to connect into it from Leeds.

 

[josla1]

Well Northern have confirmed by email that they won't be removing their temporary timetables until the May timetable change. Even then this is only where this is possible in line with restrictions easing and government guidelines.

Leaving aside the fact that restrictions are easing from 29th March, I dread to think what when this is possible will mean, particularly after last year.

What with the strikes, last year's covid timetables which lasted well beyond lockdown and now, is this oprganisation actually there to run trains ?

I can see plenty of station staff baring the brunt of this in the coming weeks then. Especially when shops and outdoor hospitality open. Recipe for disaster with the drunks.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Just to expand, it's not just the later train - it's the last two covering four hours of the day.

If Northern wants to run fewer trains, it should focus on services that are frequent, not those that are already scarce.

The service levels will have been agreed with DfT to a degree it’s their money being spent and they have some input on where those trains run and the priorities to achieve.

 

[DorkingMain]

To a certain extent I believe the May 2021 target is simply when some TOCs can reasonably expect to start running a full service again. As others have mentioned, training freezes and reduced service on some routes have meant a lot of crew have lost route / traction competencies, or recruitment has backed up.

There are various reasons why this might happen - depots with a long traction / route card vs depots that only sign a handful of core routes, TOCs with a higher staff turnover vs TOCs with a lower staff turnover, routes that are operated less frequently and therefore crew have less chance of working over them.

Don't think it can be overstated just how much recruitment is necessary and how much it's backed up. Natural turnover means you have to recruit X number of crew per month just to retain parity. We've had some depots at my TOC that haven't had new crew go productive since last summer. The list of people backed up on training covers an entire A4 sheet of paper for one depot alone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2021 ==

The service levels will have been agreed with DfT to a degree it’s their money being spent and they have some input on where those trains run and the priorities to achieve.

This is also important - as part of current arrangements with ERMAs / OLR the DfT will be making direct decisions about appropriate service level and what can realistically be achieved.

 

[yorksrob]

I can see plenty of station staff baring the brunt of this in the coming weeks then. Especially when shops and outdoor hospitality open. Recipe for disaster with the drunks.

Having the train service not ending four hours early should limit some of the issues.

The service levels will have been agreed with DfT to a degree it’s their money being spent and they have some input on where those trains run and the priorities to achieve.

And don't we know it. I wonder how many employees in the DfT are based in Cumbria.

It's not just them either. I watched a streamed meeting of Transport for the North last year and it was clear that they were only concerned about services between big cities.

The same mistakes being repeated two years in a row.

 

[Bikeman78]

However, given the normal loadings on the S&C, the potential additional cost (additional driver, guard, fuel, maybe depot staff?) of providing that later service, and the general financial situation of the railway, I can understand why Northern are reluctant to run it when people are still being told not to travel unless absolutely essential.

That won't be the case from April 12th, and certainly not when the May timetable starts. If it's okay to mill aimlessly around in shops, or sit outside a pub, then it's okay to sit in a train. That's certainly what I'll be doing from that date.

 

[Glenn1969]

The stay at home order is lifted on Monday. It is being replaced by stay local but only for 2 weeks I think

 

[yorksrob]

The stay at home order is lifted on Monday. It is being replaced by stay local but only for 2 weeks I think

So at the very least, we should be aiming for day long services to be in place by then.