May 2019 timetable changes

[Deafdoggie]

No reservations available. Never had been.

There were when they first started, but they were fairly soon abolished.

 

[sufian123]

There were when they first started, but they were fairly soon abolished.

Fair enough. I was really young child then. No wonder I don’t remember. Thanks

 

[Deafdoggie]

Fair enough. I was really young child then. No wonder I don’t remember. Thanks

It is why the 350/2 have the strange seat numbering, as the seats in a 350/1 and 350/2 are the same numbers, so it didn't matter which unit turned up, the reservations still stood. But the extra seats added on a 350/2 were just numbered on after, so seat 76 can be next to seat 13!

 

[sufian123]

It is why the 350/2 have the strange seat numbering, as the seats in a 350/1 and 350/2 are the same numbers, so it didn't matter which unit turned up, the reservations still stood. But the extra seats added on a 350/2 were just numbered on after, so seat 76 can be next to seat 13!

Fair enough. 350/2s are confusing at times. 350/3s are ok.

 

[Starmill]

You absolutely can have a reserved seat in a class 350 - there isn't a technical limitation, it's just that West Midlands Trains are following a business decision not to offer reserved seating on any of their trains.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You absolutely can have a reserved seat in a class 350 - there isn't a technical limitation, it's just that West Midlands Trains are following a business decision not to offer reserved seating on any of their trains.

To be fair, it is a business decision that I happen to agree with. Unless electronic reservation displays were installed, which wouldn't be that cheap, you'd have to faff around with physical reservation labels.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair, it is a business decision that I happen to agree with. Unless electronic reservation displays were installed, which wouldn't be that cheap, you'd have to faff around with physical reservation labels.

I didn't express agreement or disagreement with it, because this is definitely not the thread to do so in...

 

[pt_mad]

True, there are later services, but if you are on a 'WMR/LNR only' ticket then those later services are of little use. The cheapest option on the likes of the 22:00 is almost always an Advance, and yet that can cost nearly as much as a whole 'WMR/LNR only' Super Off-Peak Return!

Now obviously it is already a much better situation than a lot of stations with that level of usage, that far from London, find themselves in. But what is galling is how it would clearly be possible, it may just require some creative thinking and incur some extra costs over just going with the franchise spec's bare minimum.

And to be honest, if having engineering possessions is the problem (I can hardly believe that the parts further north couldn't be run as a 2 track railway if necessary, that late in the evening), I would find it an acceptable alternative to have the normal service operational by default, but if a longer possession is needed then it is bustituted by routine. Better to have a service most of the time than nothing, all of the time.

What's particularly telling IMO is how many other stations that are a similar time-wise distance from London have frequent services from early til late, but only really where they are in what used to be the ex-Network SouthEast area. Outside of that, the TOCs just seem to take the ex-Regional Railways legacy of "any old heap of assorted services", with a couple of improvements over the years, as an acceptable default standard.

I believe the fast lines around Weedon sometimes close late evening for maintenance, meaning a later service (may?) have to be pathed or timed via Northampton. Although I'm not sure whether the late late VT service (the one which doesn't make calls down the Trent Valley) is timed with give for that or not?

Note that the next West Coast Partnership franchise (current VT services) only specifies a train at 2200 for the Trent Valley, although given its only a minimum. So presumably engineering and posession work make it desirable for a not too late shutdown to be available.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I believe the fast lines around Weedon sometimes close late evening for maintenance, meaning a later service (may?) have to be pathed or timed via Northampton. Although I'm not sure whether the late late VT service (the one which doesn't make calls down the Trent Valley) is timed with give for that or not?

Note that the next West Coast Partnership franchise (current VT services) only specifies a train at 2200 for the Trent Valley, although given its only a minimum. So presumably engineering and posession work make it desirable for a not too late shutdown to be available.

How does the 23:00 to Manchester, and other similarly timed services to Wolverhampton etc., work then? It's clearly possible, there just has to be some flexibility.

 

[pt_mad]

How does the 23:00 to Manchester, and other similarly timed services to Wolverhampton etc., work then? It's clearly possible, there just has to be some flexibility.

I'm not sure.

It's worth a mention though that the DFT sets the basic service pattern in terms of trains per hour to each place and between what times. The franchising model isn't always going to make it worth a TOC laying on a lot of extra optional services, which yes would benefit a small ish number of customers, but I would think it would need to be practical and make business sense.

If the DFT desired it on behalf of customers then they needed to specify it in the relevant franchises.

 

[Deafdoggie]

How does the 23:00 to Manchester, and other similarly timed services to Wolverhampton etc., work then? It's clearly possible, there just has to be some flexibility.

The 23:00 Euston to Manchester is a slow train, as the fast lines are invariably shut at that time of the night, but in different places most nights. So stops are just set down only, and it can run early at some, all, or none of the stations, a "Local" train then has the problem of either waiting everywhere, or not being local, and setting down only. It would take a long time to get to Crewe, timed slow lines all the way. The 23:00 doesn't get to Stoke till turned 01:15 and he has only stopped once. The 23:00 is usually very lightly loaded, I can't see a demand for another late train that far north. 21:49 isn't unreasonably early. Add in that most stations are shut then-and have been for a few hours. Bit of a waste of paying to staff them for the staff to hang around for a few hours for one train.
As it is, Stoke has nothing from 23:20 till the 01:15. Macclesfield nothing from 23:45 till the 01:35, Stockport nothing from 00:26 to 01:50, adding even more stations is a lot of cost for very little work. This is why the 23:00 doesn't call at Nuneaton.

 

[pt_mad]

The 23:00 Euston to Manchester is a slow train, as the fast lines are invariably shut at that time of the night, but in different places most nights. So stops are just set down only, and it can run early at some, all, or none of the stations, a "Local" train then has the problem of either waiting everywhere, or not being local, and setting down only. It would take a long time to get to Crewe, timed slow lines all the way. The 23:00 doesn't get to Stoke till turned 01:15 and he has only stopped once. The 23:00 is usually very lightly loaded, I can't see a demand for another late train that far north. 21:49 isn't unreasonably early. Add in that most stations are shut then-and have been for a few hours. Bit of a waste of paying to staff them for the staff to hang around for a few hours for one train.
As it is, Stoke has nothing from 23:20 till the 01:15. Macclesfield nothing from 23:45 till the 01:35, Stockport nothing from 00:26 to 01:50, adding even more stations is a lot of cost for very little work. This is why the 23:00 doesn't call at Nuneaton.

This info seems to have to have hit the answer on the head. A 2300 local service may need to be timed slow line via Northampton the whole way, and possibly be set down only, so nobody could board after Euston. So there'd need to be enough demand to make it worthwhile footfall wise, and odd stations may need a night shift just for one train.

It's seems clear to me the DFT don't envisage a required mandatory service along the Trent after 2200 off Euston. It's basically what is specified in the West Coast Partnership prospectus.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This info seems to have to have hit the answer on the head. A 2300 local service may need to be timed slow line via Northampton the whole way, and possibly be set down only, so nobody could board after Euston. So there'd need to be enough demand to make it worthwhile footfall wise, and odd stations may need a night shift just for one train.

It's seems clear to me the DFT don't envisage a required mandatory service along the Trent after 2200 off Euston. It's basically what is specified in the West Coast Partnership prospectus.

Fair enough, 21:46 is just about acceptable as a last slow train. But that is Mondays to Fridays only. Going out on a Saturday night? No chance. Sunday? Forget about it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Fair enough, 21:46 is just about acceptable as a last slow train. But that is Mondays to Fridays only. Going out on a Saturday night? No chance. Sunday? Forget about it.

Taking places of similar population to say Tamworth/Lichfield and similar distance from London many places are comparable with last departure of either 21.49/22.00 as the distance is what it is from London there isn’t a huge market for people having an ‘evening out’

Lincoln - 21.33
Taunton - 21.45
Worcester - 21 48
Weymouth - 21.35
Wakefield - 21.30
Gloucester - 22.15
Yeovil - 21.20
Corby - 22.00
Great Yarmouth - 21.00

 

[bionic]

Last Trent Valley stopper to Euston runs late in the evening from May. Last one from Atherstone (for example) now is at 1928. After May it'll be over three hours later at 2248. You can't knock that for an improvement.

 

[Ianno87]

Fair enough, 21:46 is just about acceptable as a last slow train. But that is Mondays to Fridays only. Going out on a Saturday night? No chance. Sunday? Forget about it.

Saturdays, the last train from Euston to *anywhere* beyond Northampton is 2143 (due to maintenance needs - got to do the heavy stuff some time)

 

[dk1]

Saturdays, the last train from Euston to *anywhere* beyond Northampton is 2143 (due to maintenance needs - got to do the heavy stuff some time)

You beat me to it. The WCML is a very busy, very fast railway now & that takes a lot of attention. Saturday eve/Sunday morning is the most logical time for the long possession times required.

 

[Class 170101]

I notice that neither Northern or Virgin services are in yet?

 

[DaveHarries]

Looking at the St. Ives branch in Cornwall, it would appear that Lelant Saltings has been reduced to a 'parliamentary' service of one train in each direction, presumably with the opening of the St. Erth transport hub. Lelant Village now has regular calls instead.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/LTS/2019/05/20/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Mystery solved on this one. I posted this to another forum and have received a reply which states that the reduced service at Lelant Saltings from May 2019 is "because the St.Ives Park and Ride site is moving from Lelant Saltings to St.Erth." That would explain the works taking place last time I went trainspotting at St. Erth on a work break back on 28th June 2018.

Dave

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just having a look at the LNR services around Bletchley, and the timetables do look somewhat hotch-potch - far more so than before. Disappointed that the 0713 Bletchley starter starts back from Northampton, that'll make it a little busier, and it is down as still being a Class 319 so will presumably only be 8-car still. Starting it back at NMP would surely justify 12.

 

[Starmill]

Class 319 so will presumably only be 8-car still.

12 car cl 319 working definitely was on the cards. If it will be again now, I'm not sure. Northampton has lost one of its express services to London around that time, so in compensation a couple of others are extended to there, by the looks of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

12 car cl 319 working definitely was on the cards. If it will be again now, I'm not sure. Northampton has lost one of its express services to London around that time, so in compensation a couple of others are extended to there, by the looks of it.

What I do know is that if that train isn't 12-car, it will leave people behind from stations south of Tring, as it presently sometimes already does at Watford. (I'm just miffed that I probably won't get my priority airline seat any more, they are particularly of benefit on the PRMed 319s because they've been spaced an armrest's width away from the wall as well as more legroom).

Of course the RTT timing load could be wrong, but for LNR they are usually correct.

 

[nw1]

Saturdays, the last train from Euston to *anywhere* beyond Northampton is 2143 (due to maintenance needs - got to do the heavy stuff some time)

Including Birmingham? Have to admit 2143 seems early for Birmingham; I'd have expected the demand to be there for Birmingham to have a 2200-2300 departure on a Saturday.

Some of our timetabling decisions don't always meet what I'd expect demand to be; 04xx departures all across the network during the week and intensive frequencies during the middle part of the day Mon-Sat on the one hand; but, on the other, some early shutdowns on Sat nights and late starts on Sunday mornings. Cross-city line from the southwest for instance, had an extraordinarily late first Sun am service a few years back when I attempted (and failed) to use it to be in central Birmingham for 9am - and this still seems to be the case.

I can appreciate there being the need for engineering works but should that mean overly-early shutdowns on Sat evenings and late starts on Sunday mornings on busy intercity and suburban routes? For instance, if a train cannot be run why not a rail replacement coach or bus?

 

[Ianno87]

Including Birmingham? Have to admit 2143 seems early for Birmingham; I'd have expected the demand to be there for Birmingham to have a 2200-2300 departure on a Saturday.

Some of our timetabling decisions don't always meet what I'd expect demand to be; 04xx departures all across the network during the week and intensive frequencies during the middle part of the day Mon-Sat on the one hand; but, on the other, some early shutdowns on Sat nights and late starts on Sunday mornings. Cross-city line from the southwest for instance, had an extraordinarily late first Sun am service a few years back when I attempted (and failed) to use it to be in central Birmingham for 9am - and this still seems to be the case.

I can appreciate there being the need for engineering works but should that mean overly-early shutdowns on Sat evenings and late starts on Sunday mornings on busy intercity and suburban routes? For instance, if a train cannot be run why not a rail replacement coach or bus?

Yes, including Birmingham. There is no doubt demand, but certain regular cyclic engineering work *needs* the longer shutdown on a Saturday night/Sunday morning as the only 'white period' window physically long enough to do some jobs. Cold hard passenger demand figures probabably show this is the quietest period overall, on most routes (you can look at road travel demand as a proxy). 04xx departures still allow say 4 hours overnight; widening this to 5 or 6 hours probably won't make a huge difference to the amount of do-able work in this time.

Anyway in Euston-Birmingham's example, there are coaches if you want to travel at this time... they just say 'Megabus' or 'National Express' on the side.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes, including Birmingham. There is no doubt demand, but certain regular cyclic engineering work *needs* the longer shutdown on a Saturday night/Sunday morning as the only 'white period' window physically long enough to do some jobs. Cold hard passenger demand figures probabably show this is the quietest period overall, on most routes (you can look at road travel demand as a proxy). 04xx departures still allow say 4 hours overnight; widening this to 5 or 6 hours probably won't make a huge difference to the amount of do-able work in this time.

Anyway in Euston-Birmingham's example, there are coaches if you want to travel at this time... they just say 'Megabus' or 'National Express' on the side.

True, but it is a question of the rail industry having a mentality where an early finish like that, on a Saturday night (which is the kind of time when the most people might want to be going out, jointly with Friday), and then not having the thoughtfulness to arrange for the coaches to be advertised when you search for a later train!

 

[Starmill]

Including Birmingham? Have to admit 2143 seems early for Birmingham; I'd have expected the demand to be there for Birmingham to have a 2200-2300 departure on a Saturday.

Some of our timetabling decisions don't always meet what I'd expect demand to be; 04xx departures all across the network during the week and intensive frequencies during the middle part of the day Mon-Sat on the one hand; but, on the other, some early shutdowns on Sat nights and late starts on Sunday mornings. Cross-city line from the southwest for instance, had an extraordinarily late first Sun am service a few years back when I attempted (and failed) to use it to be in central Birmingham for 9am - and this still seems to be the case.

I can appreciate there being the need for engineering works but should that mean overly-early shutdowns on Sat evenings and late starts on Sunday mornings on busy intercity and suburban routes? For instance, if a train cannot be run why not a rail replacement coach or bus?

2143 is a remarkably good late train from London Euston on a Saturday. The last through train to Manchester Piccadilly is the 2100, to Preston is 2031 and to Glasgow Central 1830. There is a 2210 from London Marylebone to Birmingham Moor Street.

 

[cle]

Given that Birmingham is less than 90 mins away, I think it's a bit poor. Hardly a long distance journey, in this day and age!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Given that Birmingham is less than 90 mins away, I think it's a bit poor. Hardly a long distance journey, in this day and age!

Indeed - from the railway's point of view, "it's never been that good". From the ordinary passenger's view (from the sort of passenger who might actually want a later service), quarter to ten on a Saturday night is an absolute joke. As for a coach... yes, of course it's an option, but it takes a lot longer than the train and isn't really considered a viable option for most.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Given that Birmingham is less than 90 mins away, I think it's a bit poor. Hardly a long distance journey, in this day and age!

Indeed - from the railway's point of view, "it's never been that good". From the ordinary passenger's view (from the sort of passenger who might actually want a later service), quarter to ten on a Saturday night is an absolute joke. As for a coach... yes, of course it's an option, but it takes a lot longer than the train and isn't really considered a viable option for most.

Different Question, when do you want the railway maintenance to be done?

 

[Starmill]

isn't really considered a viable option for most.

Oh the world of railway enthusiasts. Trains are fine, but coaches? Totally unviable. Get real, lots of people use coaches, and the journey time is less than twice that of the train, usually for a fraction of the fare.

This sort of thing is far from good, but it's also not really a priority. The last train from Glasgow Central to England (apart from Carlisle only, on the slow train via Dumfries) is at 1847 on Saturdays.