Max speed on UK network

[Tallguy]

With the exception of the Eurostar, is there anywhere on the UK rail network where the trains exceed 125mph and if so, where please?

 

[zwk500]

Southeastern's Class 395 javelins achieve 140mph (E* get up to 186) on the HS1 between St Pancras and Ashford, which they share with Eurostar. Other than that, at the moment: no. HS2 will when it opens.

Trains have been tested above 125mph on the ECML between Peterborough and Grantham when the Class 91s were being tested but aren't authorised to exceed 125mph today. Somebody else will have to provide any details of the ATP and HSTs exceeding 125mph either on test or in service.

 

[dk1]

Virgin Trains did want an exception made for 135mph on a section of the WCML near Lockerbie but Network Rail refused anything above 125mph until in-cab signalling. Only other I can think of is on the Peterborough to Grantham stretch of the ECML which had an extra aspect (flashing green) added in the late 1980s to assist with testing of the class 91s. 140mph was not used in passenger service.

 

[zwk500]

Virgin Trains did want an exception made for 135mph on a section of the WCML near Lockerbie but Network Rail refused anything above 125mph until in-cab signalling.

Isn't it a government regulation for in-cab signalling above 125mph?

Only other I can think of is on the Peterborough to Grantham stretch of the ECML which had an extra aspect (flashing green) added in the late 1980s to assist with testing of the class 91s. 140mph was not used in passenger service.

Allegedly the flashing greens were maintained for several years and 140mph was used during times of perturbation.

 

[Bald Rick]

Allegedly the flashing greens were maintained for several years and 140mph was used during times of perturbation

Flashing greens were ‘maintained’ (ie left in the interlocking) for some time, but if 140mph was used during times of perturbation it was very unofficial and before on train monitoring.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Trains have been tested above 125mph on the ECML between Peterborough and Grantham when the Class 91s were being tested .

126mph was achieved there in 1938. No flashing greens then!

 

[Watershed]

The flat and straight ECML 'racetrack' between York and Northallerton has been the scene of several overspending incidents, including this one last year, where a class 802 reached 145mph!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The available cab signalling systems regulate speeds in metric terms (km/h).
HS1 uses the French TVM system and is 300km/h max at the moment.
HS2 will use ETCS, line speed in passenger service is not confirmed but will be at least 320km/h.
Any other UK high speed lines (over 200km/h) will also use ETCS - the southern part of the ECML is being fitted with ETCS over the next decade.

 

[WestRiding]

The flashing greens are still there South of Peterborough.

 

[pdeaves]

The flat and straight ECML 'racetrack' between York and Northallerton has been the scene of several overspending incidents

I like it, an inadvertent commentary on signalling projects?

 

[Failed Unit]

I am sure we had a guard on here in the past saying he had a certificate for using the faster speeds on the ECML.

However the 135 and 140 mph signs certainly were present between Grantham and Peterborough. In fact one of them is still in the national rail museum.

I do know the timetable was never adjusted to take advantage this speed (if it was ever formally authorized). My understand was that BR trailed it but were not satisfied with the flashing greens alone so it never got fully implemented. But some passenger trains certainly did hit 140mph.

The trains that were timetabled do do London - Edinburgh in 3h59 in 1991 were 125mph trains (didn't have GPS back then, but I did do the sub 4 hours on the 1500 London - Edinburgh and the 1500 Edinburgh - London a few times) -

 

[BluePenguin]

I am sure we had a guard on here in the past saying he had a certificate for using the faster speeds on the ECML.

However the 135 and 140 mph signs certainly were present between Grantham and Peterborough. In fact one of them is still in the national rail museum.

I do know the timetable was never adjusted to take advantage this speed (if it was ever formally authorized). My understand was that BR trailed it but were not satisfied with the flashing greens alone so it never got fully implemented. But some passenger trains certainly did hit 140mph.

The trains that were timetabled do do London - Edinburgh in 3h59 in 1991 were 125mph trains (didn't have GPS back then, but I did do the sub 4 hours on the 1500 London - Edinburgh and the 1500 Edinburgh - London a few times) -

That sounds fantastic, on a long journey any time saving counts.

If the timetable was never updated for 140mph running then surely even without GPS they knew the train had sped because it arrived early?

Was it these 125mph trains the ones that would driven quicker in 1991?

 

[berwicksfinest]

The flashing greens are still there South of Peterborough.

No flashing greens south of Peterborough, only stoke tunnel to Peterborough and vv

 

[Failed Unit]

That sounds fantastic, on a long journey any time saving counts.

If the timetable was never updated for 140mph running then surely even without GPS they knew the train had sped because it arrived early?

Was it these 125mph trains the ones that would driven quicker in 1991?

I suspect what happened in reality was that if the trains was authorized to do 140mph it would catch up lost time elsewhere. For example on the London - Edinburgh, if it had lost time south of Peterborough it could use some of the extra speed to get back on time.

Back in 1991 the network wasn't as busy (but I do recall see the 135 / 140mph signs before the mk4s were introduced on the Edinburgh route - it was just Leeds that had them back then) You did have chance to catch up. I have noticed now if you are 5 minutes late say at Newark, you lose your path north of Doncaster and are soon 20+ late by Edinburgh as you are following slower trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't it a government regulation for in-cab signalling above 125mph?

I think what happened was something like this. Nobody was looking at marginal minor increases beyond 125, the next logical step was always going to be 140 mph, (hence the ECML “225” marketing name). Then after unsuccessful trials on the section with flashing greens it became accepted wisdom that running at 140 mph or greater would require cab signalling. But I don’t think there was an aim to justify any intermediate speeds.

Someone at Virgin seems to have then thought the speed band between 125 and 140 was therefore not actually ruled out. But it was quickly ruled out retrospectively...

 

[Watershed]

I like it, an inadvertent commentary on signalling projects?

A, ahem, typo

 

[WestRiding]

No flashing greens south of Peterborough, only stoke tunnel to Peterborough and vv

Thinking about it yes, as I noticed them on a Sheffield to Norwich train.

 

[Jozhua]

Unfortunately the answer is that, outside of HS1, no they do not. 125mph is the maximum speed for the fastest key lines in the country and will likely remain so until HS2 arrives. The cost of higher speeds tends to represent poor value in terms of upgrading mixed traffic, legacy infrastructure.

A number of trains are capable of 140mph, but they have never reached it outside of testing. (Pendolino, IETs, IC225s)

 

[notadriver]

I find it quite rare for 125 mph to be maintained over any long distance. Top Speed seems to hover around 122-124 mph.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

140mph approval implies that track, power supplies and OHLE is passed for that speed, not just the availability of in-cab signalling.
Among other things an enhanced maintenance regime and higher power rating would have to be approved.
I doubt if the current ECML is entirely suitable for speeds over 125mph, though it might be after the current round of upgrades is complete.
The GWML is supposedly suitable for 140mph (that was the spec for the recent upgrade), but ETCS is still lacking.
The WCML south of Crewe was upgraded with 140mph in mind, but it's unclear how much of that capability still exists.
For all these routes, Network Rail would also have to generate a timetable that accommodates not only 140mph but the slower services still operating on the route involved.
High speed on classic lines will mean lower overall capacity, unless slower trains can be accommodated elsewhere (slow lines or diversionary routes).
There's a lot of difference between the odd test or special run and day-long operation, over a mixed-traffic route at 140mph.

 

[Failed Unit]

Unfortunately the answer is that, outside of HS1, no they do not. 125mph is the maximum speed for the fastest key lines in the country and will likely remain so until HS2 arrives. The cost of higher speeds tends to represent poor value in terms of upgrading mixed traffic, legacy infrastructure.

A number of trains are capable of 140mph, but they have never reached it outside of testing. (Pendolino, IETs, IC225s)

Agreed, when you look at the ECML and the number of places that are suitable for 140mph running, you will possibly save 5 minutes. But the known an loved congestion points (Doncaster as one) will take away that saving. If we had unlimited money it is best spend on say Grade separating Doncaster, so Northern and TPE passengers also benefit from better journeys than saving a few minutes on the LNER journeys. I know HS2 is now purely for the West. I suspect if all trains had a clear run through Doncaster it is probably better for the mainline then increasing the speedlimit elsewhere and a better investment.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I think what happened was something like this. Nobody was looking at marginal minor increases beyond 125, the next logical step was always going to be 140 mph, (hence the ECML “225” marketing name). Then after unsuccessful trials on the section with flashing greens it became accepted wisdom that running at 140 mph or greater would require cab signalling. But I don’t think there was an aim to justify any intermediate speeds.

Someone at Virgin seems to have then thought the speed band between 125 and 140 was therefore not actually ruled out. But it was quickly ruled out retrospectively...

What were the issues that made the trial unsuccessful?

 

[swt_passenger]

What were the issues that made the trial unsuccessful?

I think it’s summarised as the flashing green sequence took too long to go through a cycle, so there wasn’t enough sighting time. A driver would have to clearly see it go off then come back on again, in amongst all the normal lineside views including stuff like OHLE. or put another way, how do you differentiate between a steady green that is randomly obscured, and a flashing green?

 

[Failed Unit]

I think it’s summarised as the flashing green sequence took too long to go through a cycle, so there wasn’t enough sighting time. A driver would have to clearly see it go off then come back on again, in amongst all the normal lineside views including stuff like OHLE. or put another way, how do you differentiate between a steady green that is randomly obscured, and a flashing green?

I think weather also played a significant part, with the reasons you highlighted above. In the rain the aspect was more likely to be mistaken, when it is probably more critical then it is in the dry. We have better technology now, but I guess they really wanted a double green at the time. (But could never justify its development for such a small time saving)

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Thanks Both

 

[XAM2175]

140mph approval implies that track, power supplies and OHLE is passed for that speed, not just the availability of in-cab signalling.

It also requires that platforms along the line be gated, if I remember correctly.

 

[dk1]

Isn't it a government regulation for in-cab signalling above 125mph?

Allegedly the flashing greens were maintained for several years and 140mph was used during times of perturbation.

Oh yes, the flashing greens where operational for many years but couldn't comment on 140mph running but before OTMR I could imagine it normal practice to go above 125 as it was with most linesoeeds.

 

[class26]

It also requires that platforms along the line be gated, if I remember correctly.

and no level crossings I seem to remember ?

 

[Failed Unit]

and no level crossings I seem to remember ?

When you look at many of the mainlines at the moment that isn't an issue as a lot of the stations are on speed limits anyway. The section I think between Grantham and Peterborough has level crossing near Peterborough but could already be back at 125mph at that point (it was a long time ago). At the time Grantham was on a curve (and still is) and trains haven't recovered speed between the tunnels. Peterborough at the time didn't have platforms on the fast line.

 

[hexagon789]

I find it quite rare for 125 mph to be maintained over any long distance. Top Speed seems to hover around 122-124 mph.

Probably depends on the train but from the Railway Magazine article on the Pendolino record run it seems the speedset on 390s holds at 123.5/124 for a 125 selection.

Similarly that on BR era locos (91s/90s) seems to have a 2mph band where it will allow speed to fall off before reapplying more power to bring it back to the selected level.

On trains without a speedset, such as HSTs, where it is manually having to be controlled to the desired speed I imagine there is even more variance particularly if the speedo is mis-reading slightly.