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Max speed on preserved railways
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Jonfun
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Some railways have exemptions under certain circumstances to run faster - several railways have stretches of 60mph certified track for test trains and the like, and the GC is able to run its TPO set at 35 on the up line through Quorn to allow for the mail drops. No doubt there'll be plenty of other examples.
Monty
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The vast majority of preserved railways run on a light railway order, which means 25mph is the maximum permitted speed in most cases. The SVR has been allowed to run private test trains up to 50mph in the past. As for the GCR (I'm pretty sure their service trains are allowed to do 40+?) I'm not sure of what the arrangement is, weather they have a light railway order like everyone else and have a exemption to allow trains to go faster or they are covered under a seperate bit of railway legislation?
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25mph for passenger trains on the GC - anything above that (with the exception of the TPO, which itself has some quite strict operating restrictions) effectively requires the railway to itself. As I understand it (and I'm prepared to be corrected!), heritage railways don't operate under a Light Railway Order these days, but some of the principles have been carried forward into the current legislation. That makes the 25mph rather less of an immovable limit, though obviously it'd take a lot of effort to properly justify any increase to an existing maximum speed!
zn1
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the maximum speeds will be specified in the organisations health and safety management system...the max speed traditionally is 25mph for preserved and heritage lines, it can be alot lower, when carrying fare paying, the maximum prescribed speed for the line must not be exceeded..there are lines where a max is 5-7mph...up to 50mph...the GC has this exemption if im right for test trains..
Hi - could you fill in the missing bit from "effectively requires the railway to itself" - i'm guessing something like "insure"/"indemnify" or "certify" but I'm not sure.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Heritage railways have exemptions from many of the rules that apply on the main line, such as the need to have ATP/TPWS and central door locking, as well as the restrictions on use of Mk1 stock. Their lower maximum speed is one of the main justifications for why this is considered safe, and any railway seeking to run passenger trains faster would probably have to fall in line with the corresponding main line rules.
Most heritage railways are only a few miles long. Running faster would simply shorten the passengers' journey, which a lot of them would see as a worsening of value for money. As well as the extra cost of complying with more rules, there would be more fuel consumption and wear and tear on the trains and track, as well as possibly extra signalling. And with a few exceptions the heritage railways are former branch lines where speeds probably didn't get much above 25mph in the heyday of steam, and the alignment may not be suitable for much above that anyway.
For those that want to experience large steam locos being worked close to their full potential, this is still possible on main line steam specials (and long may it continue to be so).
Most heritage railways are only a few miles long. Running faster would simply shorten the passengers' journey, which a lot of them would see as a worsening of value for money. As well as the extra cost of complying with more rules, there would be more fuel consumption and wear and tear on the trains and track, as well as possibly extra signalling. And with a few exceptions the heritage railways are former branch lines where speeds probably didn't get much above 25mph in the heyday of steam, and the alignment may not be suitable for much above that anyway.
For those that want to experience large steam locos being worked close to their full potential, this is still possible on main line steam specials (and long may it continue to be so).
Thanks, makes perfect sense, a touch of brain-fade on my behalf - J
Mostly I agree with the above but I do think the Great Central Railway is the exception, being a former mainline with a mainline 'atmosphere' - I think particularly if/when they get the bridge built to link to the other part in Nottinghamshire, they should look at running passenger 'expresses' at higher speeds skipping minor stations as this will recreate the mainline 'atmosphere'. (As it is, the line is a little on the short side for its mainline 'atmosphere').
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Yes you may be right, especially if running steam on Network Rail gets a lot more difficult or impossible - as might happen due to new technology (ERTMS etc), lack of capacity or someone taking a more hardline view of it.
Yes, the 25mph does apply to everybody running trains over the route. A railway could apply to have a revised limit but they would need a very well documented case.
There are several elements to think about:
If mainline certified trains and, say, wooden bodied pre-nationalisation rolling stock, are sharing the same track, the speed limit has to be the one that is suitable for the least crash-resistant stock, in case the two do collide. Note that wooden bodied stock isn't allowed on the mainline at all, in service.
The track and structures would need to be maintained to a standard suitable for passenger operations at the higher speed, and the inspection and audit trail has to be in place to prove this.
The signalling has to be designed for the higher speed, with sighting distances adjusted where necessary. Most preserved railways didn't inherit a fully signalled line from BR, so the installations that you see now are specified for the line speed in current use. Signallers have to be trained and certified to handle trains that move at higher speeds so decision times are reduced.
User-worked level crossings, farm access crossings, and foot crossings might need to be improved before a speed increase could be applied to any train.
Fitting all the stock with central door locking, all the locos and track with AWS, TPWS etc, the locos with OTDR etc, maintaining the track and stock to continuous high speed running, the crews need more documentation which causes more office time etc.
Yeah nice and cheap that lot considering the limited amount of extra income they would get!
Families (the core market) dont want speed, they want a nice long (in time) trip on a steam train, they get that at 25mph, they wont get it at 50 or 60mph.
Maybe looking at very occasional high speed running days would be an option depending on what extras need to be fitted to everything that will run at the higher speed.
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I wouldn't be so sure - I think kids would like riding the express (or seeing it shoot through smaller stations) and it would go well with the Great Central's mainline atmosphere. Still have the slower trains calling at all stations though - people could take the express one way, then the slow train the other, getting the best of both worlds.
As others post, the general limit of 25MPH is for several good reasons and any general relaxing of the limit seems unlikely.
I can however see the potential for enhanced speeds in a few special cases.
As the national network evolves, more and more RELATIVELY modern stock is going to become surplus to requirements, and some will no doubt end up on heritage railways, in some cases this would permit of higher speeds in safety.
In not many years time, some HSTs are going to be withdrawn from the national network. They may well appeal to heritage lines, they are already borderline heritage ! Remember that the first ones ran only a few years after the end of steam.
HSTs already have central door locking and other modern safety features including improved brakes. In many cases I believe that an HST at say 40MPH would be no less safe than a steamer and wooden bodied vaccuum braked coaches at 25 MPH.
On the West Somerset Railway, during the summer season, the First train of the day from Bishops Lydeared to Minehead is regulary overcrowded with families spending a day out at Minehead.
I strongly suspect that a market exists for a fast service in that case.
Consider for example a preserved HST leaving Bishops Lydeared at 10-00 and running non stop to Minehead, which at a line speed of 40MPH would be reached in about half an hour.
Then at say 10-10 a steam hauled all stations service, limited to 25MPH could follow, this being the choice of those who prefer the sounds and sights of a "proper" train.
If of course the fast train could start from Taunton, that would be better still !
Another possibility would be a preserved HST for wine and dine services on heritage lines. There should be enough otherwise redundant HSTs to make a couple of sets with two kitchens, and all first class seating.
I can however see the potential for enhanced speeds in a few special cases.
As the national network evolves, more and more RELATIVELY modern stock is going to become surplus to requirements, and some will no doubt end up on heritage railways, in some cases this would permit of higher speeds in safety.
In not many years time, some HSTs are going to be withdrawn from the national network. They may well appeal to heritage lines, they are already borderline heritage ! Remember that the first ones ran only a few years after the end of steam.
HSTs already have central door locking and other modern safety features including improved brakes. In many cases I believe that an HST at say 40MPH would be no less safe than a steamer and wooden bodied vaccuum braked coaches at 25 MPH.
On the West Somerset Railway, during the summer season, the First train of the day from Bishops Lydeared to Minehead is regulary overcrowded with families spending a day out at Minehead.
I strongly suspect that a market exists for a fast service in that case.
Consider for example a preserved HST leaving Bishops Lydeared at 10-00 and running non stop to Minehead, which at a line speed of 40MPH would be reached in about half an hour.
Then at say 10-10 a steam hauled all stations service, limited to 25MPH could follow, this being the choice of those who prefer the sounds and sights of a "proper" train.
If of course the fast train could start from Taunton, that would be better still !
Another possibility would be a preserved HST for wine and dine services on heritage lines. There should be enough otherwise redundant HSTs to make a couple of sets with two kitchens, and all first class seating.
YorkshireBear
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Can I raise the point that higher speeds would also affect the work possible by track maintenance gangs with higher chance of accidents etc. Keep at 25 please. Its perfectly reasonable they are tourist attractions.
FGW services on Summer Sundays to Okehampton are not restricted to 25mph between Crediton and Okehampton. I believe that not all of the line is owned by Network Rail.
I think that's the most sensible solution, given that families on a day out aren't too worried about speed (as long as journey time isn't excessive!). Even on that basis, I think 40mph would be a more realistic target than 50 or more, possibly negating the need for the likes of OTMR and TPWS. After all, it's often said that the general limit was originally set at 25mph because the Inspectors fully expected that railways would push the boundaries towards 40mph!
In general I agree, 25MPH is fine for MOST heritage lines MOST of the time.
However some longer heritage lines are becoming realistic means of transport from A to B, rather simply an attraction in themselves.
In such cases it might be worth considering the odd fast train at say 40MPH, for those who wish to get to their destination for work or leisure, together with steam or heritage diesel operation at 25 MPH for those who wish to enjoy the journey rather than arrive quickly.
As others post, it is unlikely that wooden bodied vaccuum braked coaches without secondary door locking would be regulary permitted to carry fare paying passengers at more than 25 MPH.
However an HST or modernish DMU should be fine.
Existing signal spacings should be fine, modern stock can stop from 40 in the same distance that old stock requires to stop from 25.
Work on or near the track would have to be either prohibited, or be subject to the same rules as on the national network.
Signal spacing should still be a matter for the relevant standards - it doesn't necessarily follow that they'll be ok for modern stock at 40mph if they're ok for old stock at 25mph, especially when you think about sighting distance as well as braking distance. That said, the GC's signalling is good for, I understand, at least 45mph as designed, and I suspect most railways will have some slack above 25mph in there.
As for work on or about the line - would staff need further training for 40mph running than 25mph? After all, the latter's just as likely to kill you. As long as an approaching train can still be seen with sufficient time to reach a position of safety in good time (which would either need greater sighting distance or possibly more lookouts), or an alternative method of protection is established if not, there shouldn't be too much of a problem there.
As for work on or about the line - would staff need further training for 40mph running than 25mph? After all, the latter's just as likely to kill you. As long as an approaching train can still be seen with sufficient time to reach a position of safety in good time (which would either need greater sighting distance or possibly more lookouts), or an alternative method of protection is established if not, there shouldn't be too much of a problem there.
All preserved lines should be 25mph or less. Mainly due to the rolling stock not having central locking. Doing more than 25 on a passenger train is at the drivers risk, if they are caught they will be suspended.
On the railway I volunteer on a driver was caught doing 35 by a man from an insurance company with a speed gun. At the next station there was another man waiting, he came over and removed the driver from the train. He was suspended for a very long time. He was suspended for so long that he had to be reassessed before he could drive again.
On the railway I volunteer on a driver was caught doing 35 by a man from an insurance company with a speed gun. At the next station there was another man waiting, he came over and removed the driver from the train. He was suspended for a very long time. He was suspended for so long that he had to be reassessed before he could drive again.
That's not what's being discussed though. Exceeding the maximum speed for a given railway, be that 25mph or something else, is understandably taken very seriously nowadays by everyone from the ORR and insurers downwards. There's no reason why the maximum speed couldn't be increased though, if all the associated risks were properly assessed and any necessary mitigation introduced.
Beveridges
Established Member
A 25mph maximum is way too crippling. It doesn't feel like a train atmosphere at that speed. I don't think asking for an increase to 30mph or 35mph would be asking for too much, and even that small speed increase would have a much better "feel" to it than the tedious 25mph stagger.
YorkshireBear
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Whole heartedly disagree with you there.
In some cases, I think it's a valid point. A steady 25mph run seems about right for a winding single-line 'branch line' heritage railway, but the opportunity to run at something like 40mph (even just a limited number of trains) really would enhance the experience at other railways (the GCR probably being the example most often given) trying to recreate the atmosphere of a main line.
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