Marylebone to Oxford via Chiltern Off-Peak Fare

[JustPassingBy]

I was looking at the Chiltern Off-Peak ticket info here:
https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/off-peak-ticket

The page notes:

Please note that Off Peak tickets to Oxford (only) are not valid on weekday departures from Marylebone before 0900 . This is because the fare is set and controlled by Great Western Railways.

A couple of thoughts on this:
- It seems to stifle any form of price competition on the route.
- Why is it not possible for Chiltern to offer their own fare with a condition like "via Bicester"?
- Is this a one-off or is this generally how standard ticket types like Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, etc are regulated?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It'll be because the tickets are issued from "London Terminals" and there isn't a "Route High Wycombe" option.

It doesn't look like there's any saving from splitting en route either - the fares to Bicester Village are the same and are also from "London Terminals".

 

[Bletchleyite]

XC seem to have managed to get other TOCs to put their blanket 0930 restriction on their fares where XC might be used, so I think this is a convenient excuse.

 

[Birmingham]

It depends on the specific restriction code applying to the ticket. As the Chiltern Railways website notes, the Off-Peak Day Return fare from London Terminals to Oxford is set by Great Western Railway with restriction J9: ‘Not valid on trains timed to depart London Terminals after 04:29 and before 09:20’.

You can browse all tickets in the database at BRFares.com.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2022 ==

XC seem to have managed to get other TOCs to put their blanket 0930 restriction on their fares where XC might be used, so I think this is a convenient excuse.

There are plenty of journeys that can be made on XC without restriction 2V, especially on day return tickets!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends on the specific restriction code applying to the ticket. As the Chiltern Railways website notes, the Off-Peak Day Return fare from London Terminals to Oxford is set by Great Western Railway with restriction J9: ‘Not valid on trains timed to depart London Terminals after 04:29 and before 09:20’.

You can browse all tickets in the database at BRFares.com.

Nothing to stop Chiltern asking GW to change it. Question is are they obliged to? For instance the WCML restriction codes that have validity on other routes have different restrictions for each.

Chiltern could also introduce a dedicated fare.

 

[Starmill]

An Off Peak Day ticket from London to Oxford Parkway is valid from 0830 as with other stations served by Chiltern, just not Oxford. A High Wycombe to Oxford on route Chiltern Only also has the 0830 restriction. Same for Wembley Stadium to Oxford on route High Wycombe.

 

[Birmingham]

Nothing to stop Chiltern asking GW to change it. Question is are they obliged to?

Chiltern could also introduce a dedicated fare.

I suppose they could change it to ‘Not valid on trains timed to depart London Paddington…’. I gather GWR had similarly previously asked Chiltern to add evening restrictions from Paddington to restriction codes for Chiltern’s own flows, as some currently read ‘not valid from Paddington [something like] 15:00-19:00; no restriction from Marylebone’. Clearly before then, some enjoyed using those out of Paddington in the evening peak.

That said, I don’t see why Chiltern would want swathes on cheap off-peak tickets on its trains in the weekday morning. Unless the change would substantially alter ORCATS allocations — which I don’t claim to understand!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is quite possible they are happy with the restriction and the ability to blame someone else for it!

 

[yorkie]

It is quite possible they are happy with the restriction and the ability to blame someone else for it!

That has to be the right answer!

 

[Birmingham]

Exactly. And perhaps they are better off revenue-wise with ORCATS allocations from the existing fare than they would be with a dedicated/routed fare á la Brum fares.

 

[Starmill]

That said, I don’t see why Chiltern would want swathes on cheap off-peak tickets on its trains in the weekday morning.

A 0952 arrival in Oxford, which is the only service affected, is clearly not going to be approaching full capacity on a weekday regardless. As evidenced by the very wide availability of Advance tickets on that service.

 

[Watershed]

I was looking at the Chiltern Off-Peak ticket info here:
https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/off-peak-ticket

The page notes:


A couple of thoughts on this:
- It seems to stifle any form of price competition on the route.

Chiltern offer Advances to Oxford at very attractive prices. Indeed it's commonly much cheaper to buy an Advance to Bicester/Oxford Parkway/Oxford than a (pair of) walk-up ticket(s) to stations such as High Wycombe or Princes Risborough. Not that breaking your journey on such an Advance would be officially permitted, of course...

- Why is it not possible for Chiltern to offer their own fare with a condition like "via Bicester"?

It is. They've simply chosen not to do so. It's unclear why.

- Is this a one-off or is this generally how standard ticket types like Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, etc are regulated?

Only certain fares are 'regulated' (in the sense that they must be offered, under the terms of the National Rail Contract etc. of the relevant TOC).

Broadly speaking, these are the Anytime Day Return and/or Off-Peak Return, as well as the season ticket where one exists. Sometimes all three will be regulated, sometimes only one or two will be regulated. It purely depends on the journey in question.

Regulated Off-Peak Returns must be valid from 10:30 at the latest; those departing London area stations may additionally have restrictions between 15:00 and 19:00.

In the case of London Terminals to Oxford, the only regulated fare is the Off-Peak Return. GWR could restrict this until 10:30 if they wanted, so they are doing nothing wrong in principle.

In practice, in much the same way as GWR has successfully requested Chiltern to add time restrictions from Paddington, Chiltern could request that GWR adds an exception to the time restrictions for Marylebone.

In extremis, Chiltern could simply decide not to enforce the time restriction on their services.

So it's a total cop-out to say that the fare is set by GWR - this in no way prevents Chiltern from asking GWR for an exception to be added, or treating tickets as. If an exception existed.

 

[CyrusWuff]

They've simply chosen not to do so. It's unclear why.

Presumably they're quite happy with the ORCATS allocations for the "Any Permitted" fare. Either that or it's to avoid the silliness of having "via High Wycombe" fares to Oxford that are 10p cheaper than the "Any Permitted", as is the case for Bicester Village and Islip.

That said, the unpublished restrictions (and booking sites) allows use of the Off-Peak Day Return after 0830 from Marylebone, or arriving after 0959 if starting from Oxford.

The Off-Peak Return, meanwhile, isn't valid to leave Marylebone until after 0930, nor to return from Oxford until 0930; but if you start from Oxford rather than London, you can arrive into Marylebone after 0959, but return after 0930.

Is it any wonder staff get confused, let alone passengers!?

In practice, I suspect staff at Marylebone would possibly treat tickets to Oxford the same as Chiltern ones...which could cause issues on arrival at Oxford.

 

[Watershed]

Presumably they're quite happy with the ORCATS allocations for the "Any Permitted" fare.

I'm surprised by that. Lots of TOCs, particularly Avanti, seem to like "10p less" ORCATS raids.

In practice, I suspect staff at Marylebone would possibly treat tickets to Oxford the same as Chiltern ones

I would be surprised if the barriers treated Off-Peak tickets any differently depending on whether they're to Oxford or Oxford Parkway.

 

[2192]

In extremis, Chiltern could simply decide not to enforce the time restriction on their services.

Wouldn't the barrier gates at Oxford stop the passenger getting off the station, which I assume is operated by GWR?

 

[Watershed]

Wouldn't the barrier gates at Oxford stop the passenger getting off the station, which I assume is operated by GWR?

Perhaps. It depends how they are programmed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm surprised by that. Lots of TOCs, particularly Avanti, seem to like "10p less" ORCATS raids.

I suspect a vastly higher number of people going to Oxford go from Paddington, so Chiltern will be making more from ORCATS without having to cater for higher volumes under the existing set up?

 

[Watershed]

I suspect a vastly higher number of people going to Oxford go from Paddington, so Chiltern will be making more from ORCATS without having to cater for higher volumes under the existing set up?

ORCATS is designed to distribute revenue in line with what passengers do - i.e. take the fastest available option, or that with the fewest changes. And it tends to do a pretty good job of that.

As (almost?) all Chiltern Oxford services are overtaken by GWR, I doubt they will get a huge percentage of the revenue from Oxford fares. Of course it is possible there is a mutually agreed allocation between Chiltern & GWR (in theory there is also validity on XC, SWR and Elizabeth Line services - but it would be highly improbable for anyone to use these so I would be surprised if they get any revenue).

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I suppose they could change it to ‘Not valid on trains timed to depart London Paddington…’. I gather GWR had similarly previously asked Chiltern to add evening restrictions from Paddington to restriction codes for Chiltern’s own flows

More than that, GWR have added Marylebone restrictions to their flows.

Code GN has, within the last year, acquired a new "Not valid to depart LONDON MARYLEBONE 1600–1900 on any TOC". Previously the restriction just applied to Paddington.

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

 

[Starmill]

I'm surprised by that. Lots of TOCs, particularly Avanti, seem to like "10p less" ORCATS raids.


I would be surprised if the barriers treated Off-Peak tickets any differently depending on whether they're to Oxford or Oxford Parkway.

If Chiltern were bothered, the most they would realistically do is set route High Wycombe or Chiltern Only prices from London to Bicester Village, Islip, Oxford Parkway and Oxford at the same prices as London to Haddenham & Thame Parkway. That would be an enormous 70p cheaper for the CDR.

There's of course little chance that Chiltern would ever set a flexible fare from London to Oxford that undercuts the one to Haddenham & Thame Parkway because that could lead to them having to try to enforce break of journey restrictions which is just unnecessary hassle.