Martin McGuinness dies aged 66

[DarloRich]

As set out below:

BBC: Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness, Northern Ireland's former deputy first minister, has died aged 66.
It is understood he had been suffering from a rare heart condition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39185899

I wonder what revelations come out about his past activities...............

 

[meridian2]

I wonder what revelations come out about his past activities...............

Didn't the local children sing to British soldiers "McGuinness is coming for you" back in the 70s? Don't think there'll be too many surprises in the bio.

 

[najaB]

I wonder what revelations come out about his past activities...............

I think we've a few years to wait yet - many of his associates are still alive and kicking.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wonder what revelations come out about his past activities...............

About his past activities? Not many. He's been clear for a long time that he was a senior member of the IRA, he admitted to the Bloody Sunday enquiry that he was second in command in Derry at the time.

It's other senior politicians, on both sides of the divide, who have the real skeletons in the closet.

I think McGuinness was instrumental in brokering peace and he should be remembered for that. He had the kudos and power to lead the Republicans into peace, which was certainly no mean feat.

 

[AlterEgo]

McGuinness' life was one so complex and nuanced that it feels somehow inappropriate for me to pass comment on it so immediately after his death without writing a whole essay.

One thing I can comment on is the generally measured and respectful things said about him by Northern Ireland's unionists. I feel more positive about Northern Ireland's future as a democratic and accommodating state - whatever constitutional form that takes - now, than I ever have been.

 

[meridian2]

One thing I can comment on is the generally measured and respectful things said about him by Northern Ireland's unionists. I feel more positive about Northern Ireland's future as a democratic and accommodating state - whatever constitutional form that takes - now, than I ever have been.

It's easy for us to be magnanimous from a distance, less so if you'd lost loved ones to a sniper or a nail bomb. It isn't hard to understand how a young working class man, who had witnessed atrocities like Bloody Sunday perpetrated by a military force would want to take up arms against soldiers and the police. I find it impossible to morally condone the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, or the disappearance of a mother for offering a mortally wounded soldier a drink of water. And no doubt British forces in conjunction with paramilitaries were culpable of similar horrors.

Ultimately the forces of violence have come to naught, and people with undisguised contempt for one another have to sit round the same table. The island of Ireland will inevitably have to unite at some point, and to do so will have to respect both traditions as equals, free of triumphalism. It's impossible to objective about McGuinness at this point, so it's futile to try.

 

[Railops]

Excellent news.

 

[37038]

Excellent news.

Was hoping someone would emerge from the drivel and state the bleeding obvious.

Improved an otherwise boring Tuesday no end.

 

[Railops]

Hopefully the hospital will hide his body, refuse to release it to his relatives and not tell them where it is.

The BBC which predictably is in full on mourning mode is heaping the plaudits on him calling him a man of peace when everybody knows it was self preservation that caused him to step away from violence or at least not to be seen actively encouraging it.

 

[cf111]

Terrorist filth.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think McGuinness was instrumental in brokering peace and he should be remembered for that. He had the kudos and power to lead the Republicans into peace, which was certainly no mean feat.

Whilst I agree that the peace process could not have happened without him, he also needs to be remembered for having sent many innocent people who done absolutely nothing wrong to their deaths. He never once apologised for this and he also refused to tell people where their loved ones were dumped.

 

[IanD]

Good, honest response from Norman Tebbit. Can't say the same for many of the other responses.

 

[Hornet]

As someone who was nearly taken out by some of his "comrades" actions (Harrods, Warrington and Keady), I will not be mourning his loss, but I will leave my venom and invective to the President of his organisation, when he shuffles off this mortal coil, (complete with his rubber duck, teddy bear and trampoline).

 

[ian1944]

I could say quite a bit about my feelings at his death, but don't want to get caught up in the "did he? no he didn't" to and fro to be expected. What I will mention, though, is the death of Colin Dexter on the same day, a man who seems to have done nothing but good and who disappeared people only in fiction.

 

[Busaholic]

McGuinness' life was one so complex and nuanced that it feels somehow inappropriate for me to pass comment on it so immediately after his death without writing a whole essay.

One thing I can comment on is the generally measured and respectful things said about him by Northern Ireland's unionists. I feel more positive about Northern Ireland's future as a democratic and accommodating state - whatever constitutional form that takes - now, than I ever have been.

I absolutely can't agree with you on your last sentence. The current impasse is as nothing compared to what will happen post-Brexit: I think all the improvements and reconciliations will be undone, and blood will flow again. I wish I could be optimistic but all the signs are there. In the meantime, though, let's be thankful that McGuinness had his change of heart and was prepared to help persuade enough of his own side to give peace a chance; Tony Blair, for one, said today McGuinness was the crucial man of the Republicans to get onside.

 

[muz379]

A good friend of mine is a Staunch Irish Republican so we dont talk politics in this area for the reasons highlighted on this thread . Save to say I have not spoke to him about today's news and certainly wont be doing if I can avoid it .

To him McGuinness was a freedom fighter who with the rest of the IRA hierarchy and the footsoldiers engaged in a fight for natural justice against the oppression of the British .

To me McGuinness was a terrorist who turned to the peace process knowing his luck was running out and that the IRA had no way of really winning

Personally my thoughts today are with the families of victims and survivors of IRA attacks who will have their memories brought back by hearing the news of his death . I also feel for them in having to see McGuiness elevated to Martyr like status because we have this cultural thing about not wishing to speak ill of the dead .

 

[Geezertronic]

Always amazes me how someone like this got away with so much hurt and pain. He should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law whilst alive in very much the same way that those prosecuted within Operation Yewtree have been brought to justice rather than reinventing himself as a Saint. Leopards do not change their spots, he could have given closure to those whose loved ones were still missing but did nothing. I can't help feeling the world is a better place today as a result of his passing

 

[Tetchytyke]

To me McGuinness was a terrorist who turned to the peace process knowing his luck was running out and that the IRA had no way of really winning

I think there's a lot of truth in that, but don't dismiss it that lightly. People who feel that they have nothing to lose will behave in very extreme ways. The Tamil Tigers committed some of their worst atrocities just before they were soundly defeated by the Sri Lankan and Indian armies.

Regardless of his motivation- and I agree with you on the motivation- he got the republican cause to largely unite around the peace process. He had the power and the kudos to manage it. It could so easily have ended up as a fight to the death with the IRA knowing they were losing but determined to bring as many people with them as possible. Don't dismiss the fact that it wasn't.

 

[muz379]

I think there's a lot of truth in that, but don't dismiss it that lightly. People who feel that they have nothing to lose will behave in very extreme ways. The Tamil Tigers committed some of their worst atrocities just before they were soundly defeated by the Sri Lankan and Indian armies.

Regardless of his motivation- and I agree with you on the motivation- he got the republican cause to largely unite around the peace process. He had the power and the kudos to manage it. It could so easily have ended up as a fight to the death with the IRA knowing they were losing but determined to bring as many people with them as possible. Don't dismiss the fact that it wasn't.

I would have been much more sympathetic to his getting round the table to engage with the peace process had he faced the same justice that the republican camp forced with things like their insistence an an inquiry into bloody Sunday .

It seems laughable to me that those on the republican side wanted to see Justice against the paratroopers who wrongly killed those people on bloody Sunday , but had the same spotlight been shone on McGuinesses past actions would their convictions in justice prevailing have been so strong ?

The outcome of that inquiry was an official apology from the government . McGunniess has and now never will come forward with an apology for the innocents killed by a group he was senior in .

I think someone should be judged on their overall conduct as a person , to gloss over his past and try and make him out to be a hero because he eventually turned to peace just does not seem natural to me . Would we offer the same hero like status to prolific Islamic terrorists past and present if they suddenly downed their guns and said they wanted peace ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

to gloss over his past and try and make him out to be a hero because he eventually turned to peace just does not seem natural to me

The truth is always very nuanced. Few people are entirely evil and few people are entirely good.

I think we can praise someone for turning to peace without condoning their previous violent actions.

FWIW I still believe that what Northern Ireland really needs is a truth and reconciliation commission- free from the threat of prosecution for anyone- so that everyone can lay their cards on the table and move onwards.

Interesting that you mention the Bloody Sunday enquiry: it was that enquiry that allowed McGuinness to admit he was in the IRA. That was part of the anger: McGuinness, as a senior part of the IRA, knew they weren't present in that part of Derry and, even more to the point, knew that the British Army knew that the IRA weren't present in that part of Derry.

 

[Geezertronic]

I think we can praise someone for turning to peace without condoning their previous violent actions.

I know where you are coming from, but respectfully disagree because everyone has to be accountable on both sides regardless of a new found belief that discussion was a better than bombs

 

[AlterEgo]

Look forwards, not backwards people.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Look forwards, not backwards people.

Indeed.

Northern Irish people need to decide if they want punishment or if they want answers. People- on all sides- who are threatened with punishment for something that happened 40 years ago won't reveal what they know. If you want answers, you need to accept that losing punishment is the price to pay.

As I said, I believe there needs to be a truth and reconciliation commission now, as it won't be too long before the main protagonists are dead. Maybe that is the closure Ireland needs.

 

[muz379]

The truth is always very nuanced. Few people are entirely evil and few people are entirely good.

I think we can praise someone for turning to peace without condoning their previous violent actions.

I think I am going to have to respectfully disagree , saying only that I think there are degrees of good and evil .The man was so dedicated to his principles that even as recently as 2015 he was still saying he was proud of what he did and wont apologise .

As I said it feels unnatural to consider someone who was at his level in an organisation like the IRA as anything but a terrorist . He was a senior figure for a considerable time .

This is why I dont talk about it with my close friends because I suspect that we would never reach an agreement

FWIW I still believe that what Northern Ireland really needs is a truth and reconciliation commission- free from the threat of prosecution for anyone- so that everyone can lay their cards on the table and move onwards.

I would agree with something like that . Although can already see that minority camps on either side of the spectrum would refuse to accept the opposite side "getting away with murder"

 

[ExRes]

I'll second Norman Tebbit

 

[Lankyline]

Let's not forget his evil sidekick Gerry Adams who like McGuiness has never apologised for the IRA's past actions and before anyone starts down the road of so called "atrocities" the British army carried out, lets not forget they were operating within strict rules of engagement, unlike the IRA, who didn't care what they did, who they killed or how they did it.

As far as I am concerned i'm glad he's dead and the sooner Adams goes the better, the victims of their campaign of terror will never get their lives back.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Look forwards, not backwards people.

It is all still there though simmering under the surface. People still don't drink in their pubs or go to their part of town or send their kids to school with the others.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is all still there though simmering under the surface. People still don't drink in their pubs or go to their part of town or send their kids to school with the others.

This genuinely isn't the case in 95% of Northern Ireland (except the schooling which is being actively challenged - PS McGuinness spoke out repeatedly about desegregating education).

There are many factual inaccuracies and popular myths in this thread but I haven't the motivation to correct them all.