Marches Services

[Topological]

The current service is Cardiff to Holyhead (predominantly 197) and then 2 hourly from West Wales to Manchester (predominantly 197) and then 2 hourly from Cardiff to Manchester (predominantly Mk4). The result is that the original West Wales to Manchester is split at Cardiff and the connections no longer work. Currently the last Manchester to Swansea is the 16:30, compared to 19:30 previously.

What can be done to make things work better?

I would like to see Mk4 moved onto the Holyhead services and 197s used exclusively for Manchester. In an ideal world more 197s would be ordered so there were enough for the Manchester to be entirely 5 car (the current plan only allows for 5 car on the currently booked 197s, but swapping Mk4 to Holyhead would only free single 197s)

The advantage of the swap would be the restoration of through trains across Cardiff to an hourly frequency. This would remove 2 terminators (1 from the west, 1 from the east) at Cardiff in the hours where that happens.

(This is not to discuss the 175s, or the fact that single 150s or pairs of 153s should not be on any of these trains)

 

[Lurcheroo]

I would like to see Mk4 moved onto the Holyhead services

Ultimately they were taken off that route and onto the Manchesters because the Holyhead’s haemorrhaged money whilst the Manchester’s made money with 1st class.

It would be nice to see most if not all of the MK4 services from Manchester extended to Swansea.
That could at least make it alternating between swansea (MK4) and Camarthen (197).

As a further note, I’d like to see the Shrewsbury terminators from Aberystwyth (the hours between the trains direct to Birmingham) become services to Cardiff, it gives those services a bit more purpose and makes them a bit more attractive.
That could also allow through working of either those or the Holyhead’s onto west wales ?

 

[mangyiscute]

I think an optimistic plan could be to have the Aberystwyth trains running through to Birmingham every hour, with the new semi-fast WMR service from Birmingham to Shrewsbury extending to Chester and potentially along the north wales coast every hour as well (and probably transferring to tfw).
While that will never happen considering the shortage of rolling stock, one thing I would also like to see is station calls become standardised for each hour along the marches line - places like Craven Arms will have 2 hours gaps then 3 trains in one hour after that, which is just crazy

 

[Jez]

I believe one of the original plans for the MK4 when it was announced they were taking over some of the Manchester services was one train per 3 hours to Swansea. Im not sure why it was then decided to run it as one train per 2 hours to Cardiff with a daily service (1630) to Swansea. Perhaps because it would mess up the pattern in West Wales with only 2 trains from Carmarthen every 3 hours to Cardiff and not the current hourly Carmarthen-Cardiff service.

At the very least the 1830 MK4 could run through to Swansea - given it ends its diagram at Cardiff anyway they could simply have an ECS movement back from Swansea like the 1630 does. They could still run the Carmarthen service that departs Cardiff around 2215 given it has a reasonable gap after the MK4. Also it would be useful for the 1730 and 1930 services to run as far as Carmarthen at the very least. I remember for a short while the 1930 ran to Fishguard arriving there at about 2.30am! That was shortlived. The 1730 has always terminated in Cardiff for as long as i remember. I assume this is because the unit needs to end at Cardiff. But once everything is a 197 it shouldnt matter as much.

There is definately a market for Swansea/Neath/Port Talbot/Bridgend passengers travelling beyond Cardiff. Perhaps not as much as Carmarthen/Pembrey/Llanelli to West as Cardiff but Swansea in Particular being a city has a far larger catchment area than say Carmarthen. Ive heard many people say they are travelling to Cwmbran/Hereford/Shrewsbury when ive been on the train East of Cardiff. So even if Manchester passengers might not be that much many people will still welcome a direct service East of Cardiff onto the Marches. Even going to Newport, there are far less direct TFW services now from the likes of Swansea and Neath. Many people prefer to change at Newport for Bristol for example.

 

[cle]

Remember there is also, maybe one day, a Liverpool - Cardiff service planned.

As I understand it, that was planned to be two-hourly but run at least to Wrexham and Shrewsbury each hour. So that is another variable to consider for stopping patterns.

If that Liverpool interworked with the Holyhead-Cardiff, it could have a standard pattern south of Chester.

My view is that Manchester should be hourly to Cardiff, and faster. But that an hourly Crewe-West Wales service could also run which covered local stops and cross-Cardiff connectivity. I don't think point to point, there is any meaningful need for Manchester/Stockport/Wilmslow passengers to travel west of Cardiff directly, or real demand from Swansea to Manchester.

Arguably that cross-Cardiff frequency could be the Holyhead, given it's more of a Wales-centric service, minus Chester.

 

[Topological]

Remember there is also, maybe one day, a Liverpool - Cardiff service planned.

As I understand it, that was planned to be two-hourly but run at least to Wrexham and Shrewsbury each hour. So that is another variable to consider for stopping patterns.

If that Liverpool interworked with the Holyhead-Cardiff, it could have a standard pattern south of Chester.

My view is that Manchester should be hourly to Cardiff, and faster. But that an hourly Crewe-West Wales service could also run which covered local stops and cross-Cardiff connectivity. I don't think point to point, there is any meaningful need for Manchester/Stockport/Wilmslow passengers to travel west of Cardiff directly, or real demand from Swansea to Manchester.

Arguably that cross-Cardiff frequency could be the Holyhead, given it's more of a Wales-centric service, minus Chester.

I do not know about the cross Cardiff demand from Manchester, but I am not the only one who did it on todays 1W13.

Swapping with the Holyhead could work, the main motivation for the Manchester is that the timetable works as is (the trains having been through until the Mk4s arrived)

 

[cle]

I do not know about the cross Cardiff demand from Manchester, but I am not the only one who did it on todays 1W13.

Swapping with the Holyhead could work, the main motivation for the Manchester is that the timetable works as is (the trains having been through until the Mk4s arrived)

I'm not being glib about it. My real point is that I bet there are 10x people going from Newport cross-Cardiff than from any other place, and so where the service comes from at its extremity might not matter. And the Manchester service could do with a faster end to end time.

Newport having the Paddington also might not be the best example. But you get the gist. Cwmbran, Aber etc - likely to need it more.

I suggested Crewe for the 'local' because it has the right bays, and it is neutral for onward connections from the smaller stations which will be disparate e.g. Whitchurch to where: Crewe offers London, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and up the WCML, as well as others.

 

[Krokodil]

As a further note, I’d like to see the Shrewsbury terminators from Aberystwyth (the hours between the trains direct to Birmingham) become services to Cardiff, it gives those services a bit more purpose and makes them a bit more attractive.

It would fill the gaps in on the Marches neatly whereas running the Liverpools through would not, so I can see the attraction.

 

[deltic08]

Is there any mileage in running say four 5-car trains a day from Paddington to Shrewsbury reversing at Newport and stopping at all stations on the Marches line?

 

[Krokodil]

Is there any mileage in running say four 5-car trains a day from Paddington to Shrewsbury reversing at Newport and stopping at all stations on the Marches line?

Why would you?

I could see the value in a Bristol-Hereford direct stopper, bypassing Newport using the Maindee West curve to save reversal time but stopping at one of the planned new stations instead. Quite a lot of the business down the Marches is to/from GWR land so if the connections worked it would be a useful link. Should manage Bristol - Hereford in 1hr 15.

 

[Topological]

Why would you?

I could see the value in a Bristol-Hereford direct stopper, bypassing Newport using the Maindee West curve to save reversal time but stopping at one of the planned new stations instead. Quite a lot of the business down the Marches is to/from GWR land so if the connections worked it would be a useful link. Should manage Bristol - Hereford in 1hr 15.

There are always announcements approaching Newport about what Bristol trains are doing so it would make sense to have Hereford to Bristol, but I do worry that there is not enough stock to run additional trains.

My thread was initially set up to see what can be done with the available stock, but it is good to see more suggestions.