Manoeuvres at Worcester c1970

[Rescars]

I have distant memories that c1970 most (though not all) down trains from Paddington to Hereford dropped off a buffet car and the rear half of the train at Worcester Shrub Hill before heading off to Hereford, typically worked forward by a Hymek with just 4 on. This process was reversed on up workings, with the buffet and additional coaches reattached at WSH.

Does anyone know how this reattachment was achieved? IIRC the train engine was the same throughout the entire journey, yet the buffet was restored to the centre of the train and reforming the train didn't take that long. Did the train engine uncouple, collect the additional stock and reform the train? Or was the additional stock added with an 08(?) doing some clever shunting? Or is my memory playing tricks and was the additional stock simply added to the rear of the Hereford portion. If so, how did the buffet car reappear in the centre of the train? To reverse the formation, this would presumably have required an additional shunt of the buffet car alone, or turning the half set on the Worcester triangle. And were the half sets identical, with the buffet car between them? Otherwise the set would have required reforming again before the next down working. All comments and thoughts about how this was done would be much appreciated.

 

[Harpo]

Sounds like classic station pilot work and Shrub Hill seems to have had one into the 1980s. A quick search for 08778 and Worcester brings up a photo or two.

I'd guess that the pilot shunted the buffet to the Cheltenham end of the set in Shrub Hill and propelled everything onto the back of the London-bound train.

 

[Gloster]

A look at the 1971-1972 Carriage Workings only shows three Hereford-Paddington workings. The 06.55 SO/07.05 SX had the whole rake coming through from Hereford, the 08.05 was four with four more added at the front at Worcester. The 18.05 was five from Hereford, of which a GUV at the front was lost at Worcester and a BG at Oxford, which gained six at Worcester at the front (the first two of the six were a BG and a GUV). Sundays the 18.20 was the only through working and this was seven plus a dated vehicle throughout.

BG - Brake Gangway
GUV - General Utility Van

 

[Magdalia]

I have distant memories that c1970 most (though not all) down trains from Paddington to Hereford dropped off a buffet car and the rear half of the train at Worcester Shrub Hill before heading off to Hereford, typically worked forward by a Hymek with just 4 on. This process was reversed on up workings, with the buffet and additional coaches reattached at WSH.

This method of working continued until May 1977.

the 08.05 was four with four more added at the front at Worcester. The 18.05 was five from Hereford, of which a GUV at the front was lost at Worcester and a BG at Oxford, which gained six at Worcester at the front (the first two of the six were a BG and a GUV).

I have some research notes from a 1975 Carriage working Notice. I also have a Paddington station working book from roughly the same period. 0808/1805 from Hereford had a join at Worcester, the balancing down workings that split were 1235/1505 Paddington-Hereford. As far as I can tell the portions with the buffet car were detached from the rear and attached to the front at Worcester.

The same used to happen with restaurant cars in rear portions of Penzance trains detached/attached at Plymouth. I have watched this happen at Plymouth where the loco coming in from Penzance would retire to Laira. A fresh loco from Laira would be on the Plymouth portion, ready to shunt it onto the front of the portion that had arrived from Penzance, and then take the train forward to Paddington.

I suspect that the Plymouth method could be used for the 0808 from Hereford, but in the afternoon was more complicated.

The 1235 from Paddington was the return of the 0808 ex Hereford, but the rear portion, detached Worcester, formed the front part of the 1615 Worcester-Paddington and the rear part of the 2125 Paddington-Worcester, where it was detached to be ready to work the 0808 ex Hereford again next morning.

The 1505 from Paddington was the return of the 1150 ex Worcester but the rear portion, detached Worcester, formed the front part of the 1805 ex Hereford, the rear part being the return of the Hereford portion of the 1235 from Paddington.

I suspect that the Shrub Hill station pilot had some work to do with the buffet portions in the afternoon.

 

[nw1]

This method of working continued until May 1977.


I have some research notes from a 1975 Carriage working Notice. I also have a Paddington station working book from roughly the same period. 0808/1805 from Hereford had a join at Worcester, the balancing down workings that split were 1235/1505 Paddington-Hereford. As far as I can tell the portions with the buffet car were detached from the rear and attached to the front at Worcester.

The same used to happen with restaurant cars in rear portions of Penzance trains detached/attached at Plymouth. I have watched this happen at Plymouth where the loco coming in from Penzance would retire to Laira. A fresh loco from Laira would be on the Plymouth portion, ready to shunt it onto the front of the portion that had arrived from Penzance, and then take the train forward to Paddington.

I suspect that the Plymouth method could be used for the 0808 from Hereford, but in the afternoon was more complicated.

The 1235 from Paddington was the return of the 0808 ex Hereford, but the rear portion, detached Worcester, formed the front part of the 1615 Worcester-Paddington and the rear part of the 2125 Paddington-Worcester, where it was detached to be ready to work the 0808 ex Hereford again next morning.

The 1505 from Paddington was the return of the 1150 ex Worcester but the rear portion, detached Worcester, formed the front part of the 1805 ex Hereford, the rear part being the return of the Hereford portion of the 1235 from Paddington.

I suspect that the Shrub Hill station pilot had some work to do with the buffet portions in the afternoon.

A bit of a basic question but could shunters push portions from the rear? I presume they could otherwise the join procedure would have been difficult.

I realise it's probably a rather fundamental question but I've never seen a traditional loco-hauled service split or join!

 

[Gloster]

A bit of a basic question but could shunters push portions from the rear? I presume they could otherwise the join procedure would have been difficult.

I realise it's probably a rather fundamental question but I've never seen a traditional loco-hauled service split or join!

Yes, and so could train locos. The whole system would have ground to a halt if shunters or locos couldn’t shunt from front, rear or middle. It is only in the recent cover your rear end era that anything that might, just, possibly, conceivably go wrong has been banned.

 

[Taunton]

Curiously many of the Western Region main line services were like this. Penzance detached half at Plymouth, West Wales detached half at Swansea, Hereford detached half at Worcester. Even in the old days Birkenhead detached half at Wolverhampton.

Commonly the short working portion was at the London end, with the restaurant vehicles up at the attachment point, so mid-train on the main part of the run. Just detached and left behind on the Down working, attached at the London end with a fresh train loco on the Up. A few services did this twice. Some Penzances dropped a portion for the Torbay branch, but still took a restaurant portion to Plymouth. Some Herefords dropped or gained an initial Paddington-end portion initially at Oxford, which might work on to/from Birmingham.

 

[Falcon1200]

As far as I can tell the portions with the buffet car were detached from the rear and attached to the front at Worcester.

Presumably in the Up (London-bound) direction the train loco was uncoupled at Shrub Hill, collected the extra coaches and attached them at the front before continuing?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Curiously many of the Western Region main line services were like this. Penzance detached half at Plymouth, West Wales detached half at Swansea, Hereford detached half at Worcester. Even in the old days Birkenhead detached half at Wolverhampton.

Commonly the short working portion was at the London end, with the restaurant vehicles up at the attachment point, so mid-train on the main part of the run. Just detached and left behind on the Down working, attached at the London end with a fresh train loco on the Up. A few services did this twice. Some Penzances dropped a portion for the Torbay branch, but still took a restaurant portion to Plymouth. Some Herefords dropped or gained an initial Paddington-end portion initially at Oxford, which might work on to/from Birmingham.

At Plymouth the restaurant car, extra coaches and fresh loco sat in Platform 8, awaiting the arrival of the Cornish portion in Platform 7. Those 'in the know' boarded the Plymouth coaches to get a seat rather than struggle onto the already crowded Cornish portion.

Towards the end of their lives the D600 'Warships' often worked the Penzance portion - they weren't trusted enough to venture too far from Laira!

 

[Taunton]

Locos were sometimes changed at the detachment point on the Down working, and more commonly on the Up ones. With diesels the fuel range was ok for Paddington to Penzance and back to Plymouth, but not all the way back to London.

D600s became less common at Taunton, but very occasionally one did turn up, well into the blue livery era. Known not as a "Warship" but as a "North British". The Class 22 small single engined locos, D63xx, also NBL-built, were known as a "D sixty-three".

 

[Rescars]

At Plymouth the restaurant car, extra coaches and fresh loco sat in Platform 8, awaiting the arrival of the Cornish portion in Platform 7. Those 'in the know' boarded the Plymouth coaches to get a seat rather than struggle onto the already crowded Cornish portion.

This suggests that it was normal at Plymouth to shunt the extra portion with passengers already aboard. Was the same opportunity for early boarding available at WSH? If so, where was the extra portion waiting? How many brake tests would need to be made? Just when the train was complete, or before undertaking the various shunts? Reading everyone's fascinating contributions does make the past feel like a foreign country....!

 

[Magdalia]

the past feel like a foreign country

They do things differently there.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

This suggests that it was normal at Plymouth to shunt the extra portion with passengers already aboard. Was the same opportunity for early boarding available at WSH? If so, where was the extra portion waiting? How many brake tests would need to be made? Just when the train was complete, or before undertaking the various shunts? Reading everyone's fascinating contributions does make the past feel like a foreign country....!

Yes the shunt at Plymouth was with passengers aboard - and then of course you got the 'crunch' as the buckeyes snapped together as the portions joined. All the while the platform staff would be shouting at passengers to stand clear - as you say the past is another world!

In the down direction, the Plymouth coaches were simply detached in Platform 2 and usually shunted across to Platform 8 by a Cl 08, ready for the next 'Up' service.

 

[Gloster]

This suggests that it was normal at Plymouth to shunt the extra portion with passengers already aboard. Was the same opportunity for early boarding available at WSH? If so, where was the extra portion waiting? How many brake tests would need to be made? Just when the train was complete, or before undertaking the various shunts? Reading everyone's fascinating contributions does make the past feel like a foreign country....!

Having had a look at the signalling diagram, I would doubt that passengers would have been allowed to board the front portion at WSH early as there are no Facing Point Locks on the points that it would be shunted back over. However, the diagram is undated and probably from an earlier era, although the expense of FPLs would probably not be incurred even then.

One brake test when preparing the front portion, which can be done in advance, and one when the portion and loco are attached to the Hereford portion. You don’t need an additional one when the coaches are coupled if the shunter has done the work and moves away to let the train loco back on. If the train loco comes off on arrival from Hereford, goes and picks the Worcester portion up and shunts it back on to the rest of the train, you will need a test before it moves them and after coupling to the Hereford portion. All logical possibilities would see two or possibly three tests.

EDIT: early corrected to earlier

 

[Lemmy282]

Can't comment on the Worcester situation, but at Sheffield in the 1970's a northbound Leeds service arrived and dropped off a buffet and a couple of coaches which the station pilot (an 08) shunted into the loop alongside platform 6. Later in the afternoon the train came back and arrived in platform 6. The shunter dragged the buffet and coaches out of the adjoining loop and propelled it onto the back of the train waiting in platform 6. All done in a matter of minutes, nice slick operation.

 

[Magdalia]

I have found another source which suggests that the 0808/1805 Hereford-Paddington both changed locos at Worcester. Railway Observer July 1973 lists the trains on the Worcester/Hereford line booked for class 31s from May 1973. These include 0808 Hereford-Worcester and 1857 Worcester-Paddington, but not 0905 Worcester-Paddington or 1805 Hereford-Worcester. The trains not listed are expected to be class 47s. This suggests that, in May 1973, the 0808 Hereford-Paddington was a class 31 to Worcester for a class 47 forward, while the 1805 Hereford-Paddington was a class 47 to Worcester for a class 31 forward.

 

[Gloster]

I have found another source which suggests that the 0808/1805 Hereford-Paddington both changed locos at Worcester. Railway Observer July 1973 lists the trains on the Worcester/Hereford line booked for class 31s from May 1973. These include 0808 Hereford-Worcester and 1857 Worcester-Paddington, but not 0905 Worcester-Paddington or 1805 Hereford-Worcester. The trains not listed are expected to be class 47s. This suggests that, in May 1973, the 0808 Hereford-Paddington was a class 31 to Worcester for a class 47 forward, while the 1805 Hereford-Paddington was a class 47 to Worcester for a class 31 forward.

All the easier on the Up. The train from Hereford arrives in the platform, the loco cuts off and moves away, the front portion (which has already had a brake test) pulls out of whichever road it was on and backs down on to the rear portion, couple and brake test: Right Away.

 

[Rescars]

Changing the loco at WSH would certainly make things a lot easier. I wonder where the additional portion was stabled. I can't recall how complete the centre roads were in this era. Presumably the whole business was overseen by Shrub Hill Station Box and Wylds Lane Junction was not involved.

I do recall travelling in the down direction and passengers being urged by the guard somewhere around Pershore to move forward beyond the buffet car if they were travelling beyond WSH. Just uncoupling the rear portion and leaving it at the platform was very straightforward.

 

[Falcon1200]

It is only in the recent cover your rear end era that anything that might, just, possibly, conceivably go wrong has been banned.

Although coaches with passengers on board are still propelled, and attached, to this day!

Changing the loco at WSH would certainly make things a lot easier.

It would, but at the expense of inefficient loco diagrams - Perhaps less an issue at Plymouth with more trains and a major depot nearby?

 

[nw1]

To add to this: many Paddington station working books from the 70s and 80s are available from the BR Coaching Stock groups.io group.

These confirm what has been said already: the split occurred in 1975 (when the pattern was mostly xx05, occasionally xx35 off Paddington) but by 1978 most services off-peak terminated at Worcester, now at xx50 off Paddington.

 

[Magdalia]

It would, but at the expense of inefficient loco diagrams - Perhaps less an issue at Plymouth with more trains and a major depot nearby?

The loco diagrams were probably more efficient, because, when not needed for passenger trains, the locos would be deployed on local parcels and freight trains. Worcester had a lot of parcels traffic at that time because Kays Catalogue was based on Worcester.

 

[Harpo]

The loco diagrams were probably more efficient, because, when not needed for passenger trains, the locos would be deployed on local parcels and freight trains.

Very much so. Locos could do a paper or parcels train through the night, drop onto a morning commuter working and then head off to local engineers or freight trips until the evening peak. Sectorisation saw that off and started todays trend of locos running light for distances that would have been unthinkable in the 70s.

 

[Gloster]

Changing the loco at WSH would certainly make things a lot easier. I wonder where the additional portion was stabled. I can't recall how complete the centre roads were in this era. Presumably the whole business was overseen by Shrub Hill Station Box and Wylds Lane Junction was not involved.

Wylds Lane closed on 15 September 1973, but before that it would probably have been necessary for Shrub Hill to Shunt into forward section (3-3-2 bell signal). Afterwards Shrub Hill’s Up Advanced Starting (it was the former Wylds Lane Up Main Starting) was sufficiently far away that there would have plenty of room. There had been two centre roads with scissors, but I suspect this was reduced to one with a connection to the Down Platform line when Shrub Hill Junction closed on 17 November 1973. The front portion could have been in the Middle Siding or either of the two Up ones.

 

[Rescars]

Wylds Lane closed on 15 September 1973, but before that it would probably have been necessary for Shrub Hill to Shunt into forward section (3-3-2 bell signal). Afterwards Shrub Hill’s Up Advanced Starting (it was the former Wylds Lane Up Main Starting) was sufficiently far away that there would have plenty of room. There had been two centre roads with scissors, but I suspect this was reduced to one with a connection to the Down Platform line when Shrub Hill Junction closed on 17 November 1973. The front portion could have been in the Middle Siding or either of the two Up ones.

This does seem likely to have been how it was done. As an alternative, if the scissors were still in place, might it have been possible to bring the Hereford portion into platform 2b and use the scissors to release the loco to a centre road. The additional set, complete with fresh loco, could have been standing at platform 2a with knowledgeable passengers already on board and simply set back to couple up - assuming of course that there were FPLs safeguarding the scissors.

 

[30907]

This does seem likely to have been how it was done. As an alternative, if the scissors were still in place, might it have been possible to bring the Hereford portion into platform 2b and use the scissors to release the loco to a centre road. The additional set, complete with fresh loco, could have been standing at platform 2a with knowledgeable passengers already on board and simply set back to couple up - assuming of course that there were FPLs safeguarding the scissors.

I used the route for the first time before the Hymeks went, and have a photo somewhere. I don’t recall a shunter being used.
The layout at Shrub Hill was complete with scissors which made things easier.

 

[Falcon1200]

The loco diagrams were probably more efficient,

I have to say, I'm not convinced; Because there would have been dead loco time waiting at Shrub Hill for the arrival from Hereford, then further dead time having detached at Shrub Hill. What we need are the loco diagrams from that time!

(In Summer 1972 I spent a morning and afternoon spotting at Shrub Hill before getting a train home to Oxford, but cannot recall what the process for Hereford/Paddington trains was. I do remember seeing the first Class 08, 3000, at Worcester, but doubted my memory until seeing a picture in a book of the loco there at that time).

 

[Magdalia]

I have to say, I'm not convinced; Because there would have been dead loco time waiting at Shrub Hill for the arrival from Hereford, then further dead time having detached at Shrub Hill. What we need are the loco diagrams from that time!

I haven't seen Old Oak loco diagrams from that period but I have seen loco diagrams for Eastern Region depots. Diagrams that mixed passenger, freight and parcels traffic were the norm not the exception.

The dead time for a loco change is actually very short, especially in comparison with a peak only working over a longer distance.

 

[Taunton]

I used the route for the first time before the Hymeks went, and have a photo somewhere. I don’t recall a shunter being used.
The layout at Shrub Hill was complete with scissors which made things easier.

I don't think the manoeuvres given above required a scissors crossover.

The loco efficiency on the Western was commonly bounded by fuel range, especially in winter with train steam heating in use. Outward from Paddington to the far destination, then all the way back to London, could be close to fuel exhaustion, and changing locos at a point with a major loco depot saved hauling diesel fuel to the far end.

The Warship through run from Plymouth to Crewe even one way suffered from this, as I discovered personally in youthful times, running out in open country beyond Shrewsbury! The guard said it was not for the first time. Shortly thereafter locos were changed at Bristol.

 

[Rescars]

Interesting point about fuel exhaustion. In the late 1960s the Paddington - Herefords were sometimes worked by Warships.

In similar vein is the question of water replenishment. As well as supply for the steam heating boiler, WC tanks would presumably have needed refilling as well as drinking water for the buffet car. Presumably the loco would have been fuelled and watered at the same time. I wonder where the carriage watering took place - perhaps where the half-rake was stabled between workings?

 

[Falcon1200]

The dead time for a loco change is actually very short, especially in comparison with a peak only working over a longer distance.

Fair enough. As I said I cannot recall the workings at Shrub Hill, but don't remember it being particularly busy, given that nearly all trains on the Birmingham/Bristol route bypassed Worcester, and the Paddington service was sparse (especially compared to today) - 2 hour intervals! We need either the loco diagrams or a time machine....