Mandatory vaccination... and so it begins

[greyman42]

A mentality of 'underclass' or 'exclusion' would develop around those who had not yet had the vaccination (or even had the opportunity yet), as per the arguments / excluding about the unmasked today - even where they have a legal exemption.

How is anyone going to know who has had it and who has not had it?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How is anyone going to know who has had it and who has not had it?

People will be asking for proof before they let you into their business premises, for example - no vaccination card, no entry.
Authorities will make it a licence condition for relevent types of business, such as bars, or taxi's.
and so on.

We have just been through the most draconian restrictions on personal liberty in history and you really believe that some lassaiz-faire open society is going to just re-emerge?

 

[talldave]

How is anyone going to know who has had it and who has not had it?

Oh that's another large can of worms....!

 

[greyman42]

People will be asking for proof before they let you into their business premises, for example - no vaccination card, no entry.
Authorities will make it a licence condition for relevent types of business, such as bars, or taxi's.
and so on.

We have just been through the most draconian restrictions on personal liberty in history and you really believe that some lassaiz-faire open society is going to just re-emerge?

The idea that people are going to be carrying vaccination cards for day to day activities is a non starter.

 

[BJames]

The idea that people are going to be carrying vaccination cards for day to day activities is a non starter.

Disclaimer: I do not support the idea of mandatory vaccination at all...

...but just a couple of months ago the idea that we would have to carry and wear masks just to complete day to day activities was a crazy idea that we thought would never be brought forward to the UK.

I agree with you fully and hope it never gets to that stage.

I would however expect things to go more down the route of the Yellow Fever certificates for international travel, rather than restricting activities in this country, provided that the most vulnerable people have been vaccinated.

 

[Domh245]

As you say, this is obviously how it will be done. The exception might be if the vaccine is also available privately, then some people may wish to jump the queue by paying for it which would be no bad thing.

The drawback to this however is that the people who'd arguably benefit most from the lifting of restrictions (ie those who'd be unaffected by COVID medically) are now last on the waiting list to be able to resume full normality unless they pay for it (high demand, low supply = very high price of course..)

 

[HSTEd]

It is unfortunately becoming apparent that once states start paying for healthcare, they inevitably begin viewing the populace's bodies as their own property.

See for example the shift towards compulsory organ donation (voluntary until they accidentally on purpose lose your opt out form), paternalist smoking bans etc and now this.

 

[bramling]

People will be asking for proof before they let you into their business premises, for example - no vaccination card, no entry.
Authorities will make it a licence condition for relevent types of business, such as bars, or taxi's.
and so on.

We have just been through the most draconian restrictions on personal liberty in history and you really believe that some lassaiz-faire open society is going to just re-emerge?

Sadly this is exactly what I can see.

Wouldn’t be surprised there will be an almighty squabble over who gets vaccinated too, given how people were prepared to have a punch-up over mere toilet rolls.

Still, for those of us who are wary over any vaccine it will be one to sit back and watch.

 

[greyman42]

The drawback to this however is that the people who'd arguably benefit most from the lifting of restrictions (ie those who'd be unaffected by COVID medically) are now last on the waiting list to be able to resume full normality unless they pay for it (high demand, low supply = very high price of course..)

I don't think that there is any suggestion that there would be any restrictions on those waiting for/declining vaccinations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2020 ==

Wouldn’t be surprised there will be an almighty squabble over who gets vaccinated too, given how people were prepared to have a punch-up over mere toilet rolls.

Everyone would have the opportunity to receive the vaccine.

 

[Domh245]

I don't think that there is any suggestion that there would be any restrictions on those waiting for/declining vaccinations.

None as yet, but there's no point anyone announcing restrictions whilst a vaccine is still not guaranteed, nor arriving soon. International travel is highly likely to be restricted and dependant on proof of vaccine (or immunity), and I certainly wouldn't put it past organisations to try and implement some form of discriminatory practice for those as yet unvaccinated

 

[greyman42]

What happens internationally is out of our hands and you would have to comply with the regulations of the countries concerned.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The idea that people are going to be carrying vaccination cards for day to day activities is a non starter.

Absolutely.
If carrying a vaccination card was necessary to gain entry to businesses, surely you’d have to also carry photo ID with you, like a passport, to confirm that you are the person named on the card?
If you could be excluded from Tesco on the basis of no card, it would drive even more people to shop using click and collect or home delivery. In the long run, there’d be so few people shopping in person that physical stores would become economically unviable (especially with the added overheads of employing people to man the ‘produce your vaccination card’ queues), result lying in more job losses, economic hardship etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd agree this is not going to happen. We will retain distancing until a herd-immunity level of vaccination has been completed.

Proving it will be solely for international travel.

 

[Journeyman]

What if, instead of a fine, refuseniks are barred from international travel?

If you don't have vaccinations for certain things, you can't visit various countries anyway, so it kind of already happens.

 

[Ken H]

When I had the TB jab at school, the BGC jab, we were all tested for immunity before being given the jab. About 10% of kids already had immunity, so didnt get the jab.
Will natural immunity mean a vaccine is not indicated?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I had the TB jab at school, the BGC jab, we were all tested for immunity before being given the jab. About 10% of kids already had immunity, so didnt get the jab.
Will natural immunity mean a vaccine is not indicated?

Many think the test is to see if you're immune, but actually it isn't, it tests for an active infection, not immunity.

Tine test - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thinking back to that...didn't they used to use shared needles for it? They'd put a drop on your skin and then use a 6-spiked thing to puncture it, which I think was heated between uses but not replaced. It appears it's now done using a conventional syringe.

BCG vaccine for tuberculosis (TB)

Find out about the BCG vaccine for tuberculosis (TB), including who should have it and possible side effects.

www.nhs.uk

It is possible that if you test for antibodies/T-cells you may not need it, though.

 

[DelayRepay]

Thinking back to that...didn't they used to use shared needles for it? They'd put a drop on your skin and then use a 6-spiked thing to puncture it, which I think was heated between uses but not replaced. It appears it's now done using a conventional syringe.

You have just brought back awful memories of the 'six needles' for me. Thank you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have just brought back awful memories of the 'six needles' for me. Thank you.

Everyone was terrified of the prospect of that, but then it didn't really hurt, because, like an automatic lancet used by diabetics when testing blood sugar, it only went in for a fraction of a second. What really did hurt was the actual injection, the needle was huge, and it became a test of teenage male bravado to try to keep a neutral expression. The only one I've had more painful than that was the one they used to give you in your upper palate for tooth extractions, which they seem not to use any more. I almost needed holding down for that.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The idea that people are going to be carrying vaccination cards for day to day activities is a non starter.

Absolutely.
If carrying a vaccination card was necessary to gain entry to businesses, surely you’d have to also carry photo ID with you, like a passport, to confirm that you are the person named on the card?
If you could be excluded from Tesco on the basis of no card, it would drive even more people to shop using click and collect or home delivery. In the long run, there’d be so few people shopping in person that physical stores would become economically unviable (especially with the added overheads of employing people to man the ‘produce your vaccination card’ queues), result lying in more job losses, economic hardship etc

I agree it OUGHT to be a non starter. However, there already is a sizeable group of people who would like mandatory ID to be introduced. I hazard a guess that many of those people would also be content to see mandatory vaccination, and subsequent mandatory carrying of proof of vaccination at all times - with powers of inspection and fines for non-compliance.

That debate needs to take place, widely and openly, rather than it simply happening by default or accident, or a decision being made by a small group of people behind closed doors!

I do not advocate people having to prove who they are generally, except in a limited number of circumstances.

I am not advocating that we should be able to prove we have been vaccinated, except in exceptional circumstances, even for international travel. After all, no-one in Europe will have to prove anything whilst travelling within Europe, similarly within the USA, although I note Australian states have introduced border controls.

I hope that people realise that it is already a condition of travel on National Express to carry photo ID at the time of travel. It is also in the T & C's of Premier Inn to stay in their accommodation.

Why do people seem to think it so far fetched that 'proof of vaccination' could not just as easily slip into T & C's of their favourite travel company, restaurant chain, hotel chain or supermarket?

Even if the requirement is rarely checked, the fact that is a requirement, hidden away in the T & C's, removes your right of complaint / redress if 1 in 100 times they actually pull you up for not having ID / proof of vaccination.

As an aside, looking at some on-line reviews, Premier Inn seem to ask for ID if the room has been booked in advance but not paid for.

 

[nlogax]

You have just brought back awful memories of the 'six needles' for me. Thank you.

I'm sure many of us still bear that particular scar on our arms!

 

[MikeWM]

However, there already is a sizeable group of people who would like mandatory ID to be introduced.

One would hope Mr Johnson would be opposed, given his very clear negative comments on ID cards in the past. Though given he's changed on some many other issues in the last few months, that probably doesn't help much.

 

[43066]

One would hope Mr Johnson would be opposed, given his very clear negative comments on ID cards in the past. Though given he's changed on some many other issues in the last few months, that probably doesn't help much.

Agreed. It’s almost as if Corona virus has affected his brain, and not in a good way!

 

[MikeWM]

Agreed. It’s almost as if Corona virus has affected his brain, and not in a good way!

Maybe that's a good argument for taking precautions against catching the virus The Government could produce some posters : 'Do you want this to happen to you?'

Even I might find that worth a second thought!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. It’s almost as if Corona virus has affected his brain, and not in a good way!

He basically seems to have disappeared and is providing no leadership at all. Whether that's caused by COVID or not I have no idea, it could well be as he had a very serious case so could well be suffering after-effects.

He may well need to step down, but in my view that should be soon before more damage ensues from his inaction and lack of leadership.

 

[The Ham]

Maybe that's a good argument for taking precautions against catching the virus The Government could produce some posters : 'Do you want this to happen to you?'

Even I might find that worth a second thought!

We'd best lockdown for another six months then!!!

 

[bramling]

He basically seems to have disappeared and is providing no leadership at all. Whether that's caused by COVID or not I have no idea, it could well be as he had a very serious case so could well be suffering after-effects.

He may well need to step down, but in my view that should be soon before more damage ensues from his inaction and lack of leadership.

I’m increasingly coming to the view that he needs to go ASAP - he’s been utterly useless from start to finish.

Trouble is, who replaces him? Part of the reason he’s there in the first place as he was the least worst of an awful bunch. Starmer does seem to have a grain of competence, but the rest of the shadow cabinet seem even worse than what we have now.

I genuinely wish there was a way of bringing Mrs Thatcher back.

Bringing this back towards topic, there is an urgent need to good leadership going forward, the leaders will need people to buy-in to strategies like vaccines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I genuinely wish there was a way of bringing Mrs Thatcher back.

Theresa May would probably handle something like this better, it does seem the sort of thing that female PMs handle better. I doubt she will be back, though.

 

[bramling]

Theresa May would probably handle something like this better, it does seem the sort of thing that female PMs handle better. I doubt she will be back, though.

Blair would definitely have been better on the communications front, pre Iraq war at any rate. The comms through this have been absolutely dire, though that’s partly because Boris has set up this strange government where in theory everything is delegated, which might work if they weren’t a bunch of spineless dullards, instead everything seems to go through him and Cummings. This setup might have served him as London mayor, but it’s just not up to the task of countrywide government.

 

[The Ham]

We'd best lockdown for another six months then!!!

Just for clarification I don't think the above is a good idea.

 

[bramling]

Agreed. It’s almost as if Corona virus has affected his brain, and not in a good way!

Not sure it’s affected him that much; he was out in Goole the other week extolling the benefits of cabless trains, one of his traditional fads. Same old piffling Boris.