Manchester Victoria - tight connection

[Par]

On Sunday 30th June I have an advance from Southport (dep 19.38) to Rochdale. This train calls at Rochdale direct, however my itinerary has a change at Manchester Victoria arriving at 20.49 onto a Leeds train dep 20.54, so just 5 minutes which I presume is the minimum?

RTT show the Southport train arriving at 20.50 which I assume would then provide an invalid connection time. Nonetheless, working on the assumption that 20.49 is correct, then what are my options should the train arrive at Victoria a couple of minutes late? Am I still obliged to try and make the connection (probably P6 to P1 negotiating the stairs and overbridge) and potentially missing the connection and then be left with insufficient time to rejoin the original train I had alighted from; or can I simply stay on my original train because a sufficient interchange time was then unavailable?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Haywain]

RTT show the Southport train arriving at 20.50

It shows it arriving at 20:49 for me.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Due to a delay you are entitled to join the next available train, for that operator, with TOC specific tickets, unless ticket acceptance has been agreed, in which case, as the song says: Anything Goes. If you are late at all then I would determine you are permitted to stay on that service. I'm assuming you have booked online. Avoid TOC specific tickets, if you can, especially if there is a small differential in price. See Clause 7.7 of the Trainline T&Cs. We have the same connection time here at Haymarket. Causes untold grief. We would like them abolished and a fair fares system reintroduced. Also, book through services, if you can.

 

[skyhigh]

Realistically the chances anyone will care if you stay on the direct train are very slim. I presume the journey planner of whatever website you used suggested the change at Victoria as it saves 13 mins on your journey.

Personally I'd ask the guard before Manchester if you could just stay on and see what they say.

 

[Par]

It shows it arriving at 20:49 for me.

Yes, you are right, I was looking at the service one hour earlier. Still, I do have this tight connection at 5 minutes and I’d rather just stay on the train I’m already on if that 5 minutes was reduced to say 3 due to a late arrival into Victoria.

 

[ainsworth74]

Speak to the conductor on boarding the train and explain the situation. I'd wager they'll be fine with it though if there's a conductor change at Victoria they may not be willing to give permission as they may not feel comfortable speaking for their relief!

 

[JBuchananGB]

This anomaly has occurred because on 30 June all services from Wigan to Manchester Victoria are diverted to run non-stop between those points due to both normal routes (via Bolton and via Walkden) being closed. The 19.38 from Southport arrives early at Victoria and sits there for 11 minutes to regain the normal timetable. (As do all the Southport to Rochdale services that day.) Any other Sunday (e.g. this Sunday 23 June) this would not happen. This does mean that if you were to alight at Victoria, and miss the connection, your original train would still be there for you to rejoin as it does not depart until 21.00. It is also worth bearing in mind that Northern currently only seem to run about 50% of their published timetable on Sundays from Southport, so you would be well advised to check on the morning of the 30th as to what is actually going to be running.

 

[Halwynd]

Southport to Wigan and beyond services on a Sunday have been a shambles for many months. Two hour gaps in the service because of short notice or on-the-day cancellations are normal, and gaps of three, even four hours do occur. I too would keep an eye on the service earlier on in the day and, if possible, be prepared to travel before or after the booked service if need be. But you might be lucky... it's just so unpredictable.

 

[jamiearmley]

There are a raft of cancellations of direct Southport Blackburn services posted already for tomorrow. I would expect the same for next Sunday as well.

 

[JBuchananGB]

There are a raft of cancellations of direct Southport Blackburn services posted already for tomorrow. I would expect the same for next Sunday as well.

Including the 18.38 and the 19.38, so if it was the same next week the OP would have to choose between the 17.38 and the 20.38. But its different every week!

 

[yorkie]

On Sunday 30th June I have an advance from Southport (dep 19.38) to Rochdale. This train calls at Rochdale direct, however my itinerary has a change at Manchester Victoria arriving at 20.49 onto a Leeds train dep 20.54, so just 5 minutes which I presume is the minimum?

RTT show the Southport train arriving at 20.50 which I assume would then provide an invalid connection time. Nonetheless, working on the assumption that 20.49 is correct, then what are my options should the train arrive at Victoria a couple of minutes late? Am I still obliged to try and make the connection (probably P6 to P1 negotiating the stairs and overbridge) and potentially missing the connection and then be left with insufficient time to rejoin the original train I had alighted from; or can I simply stay on my original train because a sufficient interchange time was then unavailable?

Thanks in advance.

If a delay puts the connection at risk, I would stay on.

In future, if you want to force direct trains (where they exist), you can specify the maximum changes to 0. Similarly, if you want to force additional interchange time at any location, that can be done too.

 

[Merseysider]

The 1938 appears to be cancelled today…

…along with the 0842, 0938, 1138, 1238, 1438, 1638, 1838, 2138 and 2255.

Good luck on the 30th

 

[Halwynd]

The 1938 appears to be cancelled today…

…along with the 0842, 0938, 1138, 1238, 1438, 1638, 1838, 2138 and 2255.

Good luck on the 30th

And now the 1738 has been cancelled too.

So a nice five hour gap between the 1538 and 2038...

I used the service yesterday - a nice warm Summer Saturday on a line going to a seaside resort. The train was short-formed with a two-carriage Sprinter and, on departure from Wigan, there were a grand total of five passengers, including myself.

Non-commuting locals have largely deserted the railway on this line.

 

[Par]

Thanks for the replies.

It seems that my problem isn’t going to be making / not making the connection at Victoria, but rather whether I’ll have a service to catch at all!

A five hour gap yesterday, I mean wow. Is this lamentable level of provision down to ongoing industrial action / unwillingness to work on rest days or is there something else going on?

How likely is it that there would be ticket acceptance on Merseyrail to travel via Liverpool in the event of a similar operational pattern this weekend, I presume not?

What other options would be available?

Thanks again

 

[JBuchananGB]

The main contributor seems to be poor industrial relations between ASLEF and Northern, who rely on overtime/rest day working for Sunday services. They cancel certain trains when they know they won't run them, and they disappear from the online timetables the day before. The remaining trains are subject to the normal vagaries of the railway.
Ticket acceptance via Merseyrail, to Liverpool, and TPE to Manchester is most unlikely. To connect with your booked train at Manchester at 2054, you would need to catch the 1827 from Southport, walk from Central to Lime Street then the 1951 TPE to Manchester. If the 1938 is known to be cancelled but the 1838 is running your Northern ticket will be valid on it.
You should check on the day on Real Time Trains. The train to form 19.38 SOP to MCV should be the train which leaves Blackburn at 1607. Check whether it is running.

 

[gray1404]

If there is a massive gap in the timetable i.e. more then one hour, phone Northern Customer Experience Centre and ask them to send a taxi to get you.

 

[skyhigh]

The main contributor seems to be poor industrial relations between ASLEF and Northern

The vast majority of the cancellations are due to guards, so nothing to do with ASLEF.

 

[NorthWestRover]

How likely is it that there would be ticket acceptance on Merseyrail to travel via Liverpool in the event of a similar operational pattern this weekend, I presume not?

This Sunday just gone the screens at Wigan NW were stating you could travel by any reasonable route. Every Sunday is like this at the moment.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Today's the day. The 1938 is indeed cancelled. Looking like the 1838 and the 2038 are still alive. If the passenger takes the 2038 arriving Rochdale 22.20 there's a Delay Repay Claim 1h14 against the booked itinerary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2024 ==

Checking at about 1540 it would seem that no further train will run from Southport towards Blackburn until 2038.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2024 ==

These RRBs will berunning.
17:45 - A coach operated by Bestway calling all stations to Manchester Victoria then drop off customers as required to Blackburn.
19:45 - 2 x 16 seater buses operated by Bestway calling all stations to Manchester Victoria then drop off customers as required to Blackburn.

 

[Halwynd]

So, an hourly service reduced to departures for Wigan & Manchester at 08:42, 10:38, 11:38 & 20:38.

Probably the worst Sunday I've seen for a while.

Shameful.

 

[NorthWestRover]

The 10.38 only ran as far as Wigan.

 

[Par]

I’m sat on 20.38, with a 45 minute wait having eschewed the opportunity to join the 16 seater minibus with (having consulted with the driver) and being told arrival at Rochdale was a scarcely believable 00.03!

 

[JBuchananGB]

It seems you still have the option for a change at Manchester onto an earlier train for arrival at Rochdale at 22.06, as per the original enquiry, just an hour later.

 

[Par]

It seems you still have the option for a change at Manchester onto an earlier train for arrival at Rochdale at 22.06, as per the original enquiry, just an hour later.

Yes, that was a good solution - thanks

 

[gray1404]

Definitely claim delay repay from Northern too.

 

[Par]

Definitely claim delay repay from Northern too.

Indeed. Claim submitted.

 

[gray1404]

Indeed. Claim submitted.

Be prepared for a wait. I'm still waiting to hear back for a claim submitted on 8 June.

 

[Par]

Be prepared for a wait. I'm still waiting to hear back for a claim submitted on 8 June.

Claim approved this morning, a 4 day response seems a better performance than actually running services!

 

[jamiearmley]

I hope you claimed for the free tickets rather than just the money!